Hardware Req for 16-20 3MP Cams

[fenderman]

Are there specs to outline what "refurbished" means for these computers?
I guess "refurb" always makes me a little hesitant but probably no reason to be with a 3 yr warranty.

As others have said, they are in new condition. If you buy a skylake processor dell you know it cant be more than a few months old anyways as they only began shipping recently. Most are simply customer returns within the first 30 days. All my systems are refurbs or ebay/used for a month or two..no issues.

 

[SpinnerRow]

....... Some of the newer NUCs may even handle the 20-cameras fine, consuming even less power and taking up less space. You'd still have to decide where to record the data.

I love the NUCs. I have five myself (HTPCs and desktops). None running BI but I'm thinking about a NUC6i5SYH which has a 15watt i5-6260U processor (4314 Passmark). It also has an mSATA slot for an SSD and can support up to 9.5mm thick 2.5" HDD. Prices for them are about $350 without memory. 16gb of memory will run you about $65 on Amazon. WD makes a 1TB 2.5" A/V drive for $68 on Amaazon

 

[Masejoer]

I love the NUCs. I have five myself (HTPCs and desktops). None running BI but I'm thinking about a NUC6i5SYH which has a 15watt i5-6260U processor (4314 Passmark). It also has an mSATA slot for an SSD and can support up to 9.5mm thick 2.5" HDD. Prices for them are about $350 without memory. 16gb of memory will run you about $65 on Amazon.

I only use a small x86 system for my internet router (4 network ports), but even the little case-cooled Celeron J1900 is a surprisingly little thing (and overpowered for router-duty, but it was under $200 and had the four Intel gigabit NICs I wanted). The new quad-core NUCs appear to be amazing.

With the NUCs though, you still want something with decent local storage at the minimum, offloading to a network drive or the web.

 

[nbstl68]

I love the NUCs. I have five myself (HTPCs and desktops). None running BI but I'm thinking about a NUC6i5SYH which has a 15watt i5-6260U processor (4314 Passmark). It also has an mSATA slot for an SSD and can support up to 9.5mm thick 2.5" HDD. Prices for them are about $350 without memory. 16gb of memory will run you about $65 on Amazon.

I thought I'd read some discussion around this forum not too long ago about why using NUCs are NOT a good idea for running BI and a bunch of cameras, but can't track it down or recall the reasoning.

I'd much prefer something as small as possible for purposes of concealment if recording to disk w\ no remote backup.

 

[nbstl68]

I see they have a different form factor NUC running a i7-6700HQ, (not sure what the HQ designates?).

NUC Kit NUC6i7KYK with 6th generation Intel® Core™ i7 processor and Intel® Iris™ Pro Graphics

Also says "IRIS Graphics"...Not sure what that is or if BI can use it the same as intel HD with quicksync?

 

[fenderman]

I thought I'd read some discussion around this forum not too long ago about why using NUCs are NOT a good idea for running BI and a bunch of cameras, but can't track it down or recall the reasoning.

I'd much prefer something as small as possible for purposes of concealment if recording to disk w\ no remote backup.

Its because they generally cannot house a 3.5 drive. Also they are more expensive for the same horsepower and they cannot support high power i7 processors, the i7 processors in the nucs are neutered. They are also easier to remove from the premises. Generally desktops are left alone.

 

[SpinnerRow]

....They are also easier to remove from the premises. Generally desktops are left alone.

If they can find it. It is pretty easy to hide a 5" square 2" thick box. And yes, I agree that the i7 NUCs are not worth the money as they are only marginally (very marginally) faster than the i5s. If I go this way with my BI build, I'll make sure and document the build and set up for BI. I'm only going to have no more than four 4mp cams running 1080p. Not the 20 you guys are talking about.

I see they have a different form factor NUC running a i7-6700HQ, (not sure what the HQ designates?).

That CPU has a 8045 passmark. So a bit more than an i5-4590.

 

[Masejoer]

Unless needing a large local archive, we don't need to use 3.5" drives. History shows that fewer and lighter platters generally last longer than larger, heavier drives with more and heavier platters. Not the rule, but 2.5" drives are generally fine. I'd still want at least two mirrored though, and I like my OS on SSD. 3 drives means I'm looking at SFF systems.

That Intel i7 NUC with 2.5GHz base frequency could likely run up to 30x 3-4MP cameras at full bitrate and frame rates. With my current cameras settings at 10fps, I would expect over 50 cameras as being possible on the NUC. As long as hardware-acceleration is working and you leave one core available for non-recording duties, you can cram a lot into one of the new NUCs.

My BI system has a 160GB SSD and two 2.5" 500GB drives for storage. Don't need any more for local storage. Just had to work through the stupid APM issue on the drives, which were released with firmware that had only laptop-battery-life in mind. 5-year warranty on the drives.

 

[fenderman]

Unless needing a large local archive, we don't need to use 3.5" drives. History shows that fewer and lighter platters generally last longer than larger, heavier drives with more and heavier platters. Not the rule, but 2.5" drives are generally fine. I'd still want at least two mirrored though, and I like my OS on SSD. 3 drives means I'm looking at SFF systems.

That Intel i7 NUC with 2.5GHz base frequency could likely run up to 30-cameras at full bitrate. I'd limit it to 20 cameras for some headroom.

My BI system has a 160GB SSD and two 2.5" 500GB drives for storage. Don't need any more for local storage. Just had to work through the stupid APM issue on the drives, which were released with firmware that had only laptop-battery-life in mind. 5-year warranty on the drives.

There is no need for a mirrored drive - hard drive failure is extremely rare, particularly for good quality ssd's. Most folks store the files locally. Not on network storage. Also, 3.5 drives are specifically available for NVR use like the WD purple. SFF is the best mix for this.

 

[nbstl68]

Why not use SSDs for the recording drives also other than cost if you are storing a lot of footage?

 

[fenderman]

Why not use SSDs for the recording drives also other than cost if you are storing a lot of footage?

The cost for 4tb ssd would be astronomical...The drives are robust enough to withstand lots of rewirtes so unless you are writing crazy amounts of data, they will be just fine in that respect.

 

[Masejoer]

There is no need for a mirrored drive - hard drive failure is extremely rare, particularly for good quality ssd's. Most folks store the files locally. Not on network storage. Also, 3.5 drives are specifically available for NVR use like the WD purple. SFF is the best mix for this.

Yes you need mirrored if you don't want issues to appear/lower system uptime. I'm not using an SSD for storage - I've seen many SSDs die at work in workstations and SLC-based SSDs in servers in under 1-year of duty. Platter drive failures are more common than they should be as well - my older 2TB Samsungs are still the most reliable I have and have outlived the 3 and 5TB drives I have owned. Newer drives, many test bad out of the box, including more expensive WD Blacks and Reds. Seems we have about a 15% rate of failure on initial 1st-pass butterfly testing when we receive new-in-box drives (some SAS, some SATA).

I had one 6TB WD purple drive. It died in 2-months. Anecdotal there as it was a one-off personal purchase, not a purchase of 50+ drives like we do at work. Wasn't a great start to a newer line from WD.

I'll stick with SSD for read-heavy loads and mechanical HDD for write-heavy loads for a few more years.

Archival storage is on a separate disk-array server, backed up to a NAS and another external USB drive. I'm not too concerned with small 500GB drives for initial-clip storage in the BI system. if we can get shadow-motion under control, 500GB would store even longer duration.

I agree SFF is a great overall size for these things though. Some only have two or three SATA ports. I specifically look for at least 4. Power usage also isn't an issue - if you limit a desktop CPU to a lower speed and undervolt, you will also see power consumption close to the numbers from a NUC. Having not done any testing recently, years ago I had a Core2Duo E8400 system that I ran at 1Ghz - much faster than an Atom and peaked at around 15W usage. Atom idled at a couple Watts less, but we won't see idle/sleep state in a surveillance system. Hardware price was also about the same - the Atoms were overpriced.

 

[fenderman]

Yes you need mirrored if you don't want issues to appear/lower system uptime. I'm not using an SSD for storage - I've seen many SSDs die at work in workstations and SLC-based SSDs in servers in under 1-year of duty. Platter drive failures are more common than they should be as well - my older 2TB Samsungs are still the most reliable I have and have outlived the 3 and 5TB drives I have owned. Newer drives, many test bad out of the box, including more expensive WD Blacks and Reds. Seems we have about a 15% rate of failure on initial 1st-pass butterfly testing when we receive new-in-box drives (some SAS, some SATA).

I had one 6TB WD purple drive. It died in 2-months. Anecdotal there as it was a one-off personal purchase, not a purchase of 50+ drives like we do at work. Wasn't a great start to a newer line from WD.

I'll stick with SSD for read-heavy loads and mechanical HDD for write-heavy loads for a few more years.

Archival storage is on a separate disk-array server, backed up to a NAS and another external USB drive. I'm not too concerned with small 500GB drives for initial-clip storage in the BI system. if we can get shadow-motion under control, 500GB would store even longer duration.

I agree SFF is a great overall size for these things though. Some only have two or three SATA ports. I specifically look for at least 4. Power usage also isn't an issue - if you limit a desktop CPU to a lower speed and undervolt, you will also see power consumption close to the numbers from a NUC. Having not done any testing recently, years ago I had a Core2Duo E8400 system that I ran at 1Ghz - much faster than an Atom and peaked at around 15W usage. Atom idled at a couple Watts less, but we won't see idle/sleep state in a surveillance system. Hardware price was also about the same - the Atoms were overpriced.

I run, 20+ blue iris servers as well as many office machines, I think in the last 5 years I have had one hard drive failure. You have no redundancy for another of the other components so the redundant drives has minimal benefit. The hp elitedesk SFF are the roomiest I have seen, particularity if you remove the dvd..if you want true redundancy buy a cheap system as backup.

 

[Masejoer]

I run, 20+ blue iris servers as well as many office machines, I think in the last 5 years I have had one hard drive failure. You have no redundancy for another of the other components so the redundant drives has minimal benefit. The hp elitedesk SFF are the roomiest I have seen, particularity if you remove the dvd..if you want true redundancy buy a cheap system as backup.

If we're talking solid-state SSD, sure, you are just as likely to have other devices physically fail. In systems with a hard drive, the disk drive is the only critical mechanical component, and you have the most to lose from it.

If you have a rapid recovery plan in case your hdd fails, then one drive is fine. If you don't, or don't want to chance losing data or needing to urgently repair your system, mirroring (or parity) RAID makes sense. Even better yet, cluster two systems together :victorious:

Generally I agree with you. The engineer part of me says to overbuild it so you're less likely to experience issues. Most people don't monitor systems as much as some of us, and may not notice that their drive failed months-prior, and their security-event wasn't recorded. There are many stories about surveillance systems that didn't catch something as it wasn't recording at the time, or the recording is "corrupt"/missing. Why not spend $50 more and have duplicated data in the first place?

 

[nbstl68]

...they cannot support high power i7 processors, the i7 processors in the nucs are neutered. They are also easier to remove from the premises. Generally desktops are left alone.

@fenderman, what do you mean by "the i7s in the NUCs are neutered"? I see the i7-6700 recommended for BI here all the time.
Does a NUC just not have a big enough power supply to "let it run" or something specific about the chip model, board etc. itself that would make moving at least to a SFF better?

 

[SpinnerRow]

@fenderman, what do you mean by "the i7s in the NUCs are neutered"? I see the i7-6700 recommended for BI here all the time.
Does a NUC just not have a big enough power supply to "let it run" or something specific about the chip model, board etc. itself that would make moving at least to a SFF better?

Don't mean to answer for someone else but it is all heat dissipation. The boxes are small, the fans are small and high GHZ CPUs generate more heat. So the CPUs in the NUC are clocked way lower than, say, a desktop cpu with a big fan on the CPU and 1 ore more big fans to get the heat out of the box.

 

[Masejoer]

@fenderman, what do you mean by "the i7s in the NUCs are neutered"? I see the i7-6700 recommended for BI here all the time.
Does a NUC just not have a big enough power supply to "let it run" or something specific about the chip model, board etc. itself that would make moving at least to a SFF better?

They are CPUs made for laptop/NUC usage. Lower power. 2.5Ghz base frequency instead of 3.4Ghz - roughly 25-30% slower. If you don't need higher speeds though (50+ cameras?), they are a good option, albeit priced higher for the performance you get.

 

[nbstl68]

Thanks,
So, @Masejoer, are you saying maybe the prev referenced i7 NUC could be plenty for the OP's spec of "16-20 3MP cams"?
[h=2][/h]

 

[Masejoer]

Thanks,
So, @Masejoer, are you saying maybe the prev referenced i7 NUC could be plenty for the OP's spec of "16-20 3MP cams"?

A person should be able to run at least 30 cameras on that CPU, yes. I'd estimate roughly 50-60% full-core usage on that CPU (25-30% in Windows task manager, showing hyperthreading). 20x 3MP@ 15fps D2D utilizing hardware acceleration. I wouldn't be surprised if 40 cameras were possible.

My older i7-3770 averages 8% usage (16% full-core) with my 13 cameras at 10fps and max bitrate. Hardware acceleration makes the latest and greatest CPUs no longer necessary. Gone are the years of my overclocked Core2Quad running at 35% CPU usage with 3 cameras. People can't complain about BI's CPU usage anymore - that was probably the biggest reason many people stayed away from BI. I want to add dozens more cameras now just because it's possible. Excellent software and support, that's for sure!

 

[nbstl68]

I need to Google \ better understand "Hardware Accelleration". Is that what "intel HD with quicksync" discussions refer to here?...Some chips have "IRIS..."...same \ newer thing?
...If not fully utilizing the CPU and no graphics card, where's the magic processing power coming from?
I'm planning a setup isfor approx 12 4MP cams @ 15-30 fps recording full time (prob don't need that fps rate but...) and motion notification..would be nice to be able to use a NUC if it could handle it so I could tuck it away but assumed it could not handle it.