HDW5231R-ZE vs. HDW5831r-ZE

[chrisjcbt]

Hi there,

Thanks to the help of this forum (searching this site and the wiki), along with the help of Andy @ EmpireTech) I've narrowed my first proper CCTV choices down to the HDW5231R-ZE or the HDW5831R-ZE. I'm looking for this forums help to make my final decision. Can you spare me 5 minutes for an opinion?

I need two cameras (both mounted externally - on the soffit of the property - see the attached file). One will be facing forwards, the other into the back garden. We live in a city, so I'm most worried about activity at night. As it is a city, that also means there will also be some street lighting, even at night time.

From my research, I understand that the 2MP Starlight camera will give me the better low light capability, so questions:

1. Is the 2MP camera really that much better in low light than the 8MP option?

2. I notice the 2MP camera is 50/60fps@1080, whereas the 8MP camera is 15fps@4K, or 25/30fps@3M. The latter fps rate seems really, really low. What is your experience of the video quality at this fps rate??
​

I keep coming back to the 8MP camera option, mainly because I'm mounting the cameras relatively high up, I think the 8MP camera will give me better detail if I ever need to zoom into an area of interest.

I'm happy to provide more info if that helps, but I would really value your opinion!

Thanks,
Chris

 

[awsum140]

In terms of FPS, don't worry about it at all. You're not producing a Hollywood Epic, you're trying to get security coverage, evidence, if there's a problem. I run my cameras at 10fps, 4096 max bit rate, and the quality of each frame is the same, just less frames. The motion may not be as "smooth" when viewing a recorded clip, but there is not enough lost to even consider it a loss while preserving disk space. Frame rate has no bearing on a single frame capture. The only time you might need high FPS like that is if your insurance company requires it, which also means they require video surveillance in the first place, like in a casino or bank.

I can't speak to the 5831R, but the 5231R works very well, for me, with the internal IR shut off and random light from street lights. Those street lights are at least 100 meters from the camera. I can actually "force" a color image, albeit with some noise, under night conditions. It's not a function of megapixels, it's a function of how much information each pixel contains and the size of the CMOS sensor.

Click on the Wiki at the top of this, or any page, and read the Cliff Notes. It will give you a better understanding of camera capabilities. Also remember that these are "varifocal" and not "zoom" cameras. They are meant to be set to a focal length that suits the installation at the time of installation and left at that setting. The zoom mechanism is not designed for constant use. Also, remember that you can't change azimuth or elevation on these cameras. When you "zoom" in you're zooming in on the center of the frame.

Looking at your elevation, I'd also suggest mounting the camera underneath the balcony rather than up at the eave level. Lower is better and it will still be out of convenient reach of "curious" hands. Again, read the Cliff Notes, lots of good information regarding camera mounting.

 

[chrisjcbt]

Thanks, I worked through the cliff notes a couple of days ago and found it hugely helpful. I was just left with questions about fps (awesome feedback thank you), as well as the comparative low light performance - if others have opinions, I would really value your feedback. I cannot move the camera unfortunately, I'll keep it as far forward of the soffit to remove IR reflections, but moving it to the balcony won't be 'approved by the boss'!

 

[awsum140]

Ahhh, the good old WAF (wife acceptance factor) or as I call it "The War Department". It might be worthwhile to try persuading her that under the balcony would not be particularly obtrusive/noticeable. The cameras aren't all that big, a little over 12 centimeters in diameter, and can be painted to match the background color. Back near the house and between joists would make it pretty much invisible to the casual observer. Frankly, looking at your proposed location, the camera will be pointed mostly down at an angle so steep it won't serve to provide identification of anyone approaching the front of the house. As a rule of thumb, I've found that a height difference greater than two meters between the camera and a target renders identification impossible under any but the most "lucky" circumstances. Knowing what happened when is nice, but knowing who did it is a key factor.

 

[aristobrat]

I keep coming back to the 8MP camera option, mainly because I'm mounting the cameras relatively high up, I think the 8MP camera will give me better detail if I ever need to zoom into an area of interest.

I have a camera mounted relatively high up on the side of the house. Might be a few feet lower than yours, but I think it still falls into the "relatively high" category.

I originally started with a 5231 in this location, swapped it out with a 5631, and then eventually went back to a 5231. I was able to capture a few night-time pictures from both models of cameras... I know you're asking specifically about a 5831, but I think the low-light performance of the 5831 and 5631 are close enough that the pictures might give you some thoughts.

The pictures are in this post:
#4

When you mentioned "being able to zoom in to get more details", I'm 100% with you in regards to the 5831 being better during the daytime. For me, at night, neither camera was able to capture blur-free motion. I think the 5231 did better than the 5631, but it still had some blur. My experience has been that zooming into blurry video generally usually gives you more blur -- not more useful details. This is why I ended up switching back to a 5231 in this location and trying the 5631 in a location that has better light.

IMO, the biggest factor is how much light you have in front of your house for the camera to work with. Generally speaking, the 5231 will do better with less, but if you have enough for the 5831 to be happy with, ...

My driveway is fairly dim ... ambient light from streetlights and a 60W LED bulb mounted over the garage door. In my situation, I think the 5231 does a bit better. Someone recently posted a 5831 review video where they took a night-time video standing near the brightest rural streetlight that I've ever seen before (to me, the shadow this streetlight created of him at midnight looked like a daytime shadow the sun would create), but you know what? It was enough light for his 5831 to work well, and in that situation, I could see him benefiting from the extra pixels.

 

[mat200]

Welcome @chrisjcbt

1) HDW5231R-ZE vs. HDW5831r-ZE
iirc one of our members did a comparison between the 2MP starlight and 8MP models. Perhaps it was those models, or HDW5231R-Z and HDW5831R-Z/ZE

I would recommend looking for that. Note, I may have made a note for it in my notes.. look for the 8MP links there, or just use the search function ( easier ) on ipcamtalk
Looking for some advice and direction!

2) If you are concerned with low light, then get the 2MP OEM starlight model. Note the ID range during the day will be shorter than the 8MP, however at night the 2MP Dahua OEM starlight will out perform the 8MP camera.

3) Your planned placement is FAR TOO high if you want to use the camera to have a good chance at any sort of ID image.
The placement you are considering is a good "bald spot" camera.



4) WAF, BOSS factor... ask her to test the placement with her.. temporarily setup the camera high by where you want to place it. Have a friend wear a hoodie and baseball cap and walk up to the house like a burglar / home invader with some sort of "weapon" ( bat, wrench, crow bar )... ask her to help ID which friend of yours it was. ( ask your friend NOT to look up at the camera just at the doors and windows of the first floor ). Then ask her what she thinks...

Seriously, the camera needs to be significantly lower, about 1/2 way down from where you have it placed.

 

[chrisjcbt]

Thank you everyone, I really appreciate all the feedback.

 

[chrisjcbt]

I'm back! I've taken the advice on board and have approval for lower placement of the cameras. So the current plan is to go ahead and buy 4 cameras:

1. One placed at the front of the house, below and to the right of the 1st floor window on the right hand side.
2. Two cameras placed along either side of the house, covering the alley way (this itself is fenced off). These will both be looking forward, and placed right at the back of the property.
3. One final camera placed at the back of the house (facing rearward).
4. Of note, I also have a Ring Pro, giving me a camera on the doorbell.

I've read through the cliff notes, and notice that Dome cameras for outside are not recommended, why is this? I was thinking of dome cameras for the front and back application, along with bullet camera on the alleyways. Spiders might also be a problem for the Bullet cameras, has anyone experienced this with their?

 

[aristobrat]

IMO, in terms of how easy it is for spiders to spin webs across, it general goes from dome (easiest) -> bullet -> turret (hardest). I have to clean off my turrets a few times each year.

The biggest challenge I've run into with domes is that if the IR from the camera bounces back (i.e. the camera is pointed at something relatively close, or the dome gets dirty), the IR bouncing back may cause the image to wash out.

I have a mini-dome on my back patio. At night when IR is on, it bounces off the house and the post the camera is mounted on, back into the camera, which causes some washout in the image. The picture below is with the IR level set to manual and turned really low. If the IR level was normal, the entire image would be washed out. If I could put a turret here, the image wouldn't have nearly as much wash out, but I can't get "approval" for a turret on the patio.



The other concern about domes is that if the dome is exposed to the direct sun, it may discolor. My domes don't get much direct sunlight, so I haven't run into that issue yet.

 

[chrisjcbt]

Thanks for the info, and the images. I'll start re-thinking what camera type I'm installing at each of the points listed.

 

[botics]

I bought both models. 5231 wins. However, if you like to play and sit there and watch cameras the 5831 is super. At night... 5231 makes it easy to suggest.