Help with deciding which camera to go with...

[Termin8r]

Hello, trying to decide on these two POE outdoor bullet type camera's. I have for some time now been leaning towards Amcrest's cameras. Their specs and features seemed to be considered good.

Then I came across this forum and learned about the Empire Tech camera's which seem to be a very similar product.

Nonetheless, these are the two models I'm currently looking at.


Model 1: Amcrest UltraHD 4K (8MP) @ 30fps

Model 2: EmpireTech 4K (8MP) @ 30fps


Can anybody offer the pro's and cons of each camera in comparison with each-other (aside from the pricing)?

Based on the specs they seem to be similar although I may be missing something? I'm not very proficient at all but know I want a good quality 4K camera at 30fps capable of displaying clear videos.

The camera itself will be mounted about 9ft from the ground. The sidewalk that runs in front of my home will be about 45ft in distance from the camera. Would be nice to have a good view and sight of the area in front of the camera.

I'll also note that the area in front of the camera will not be entirely dark at night. There is an exterior wall light about two feet below the camera and there is also a street light on our sidewalk in front of our home. So were not in total darkness.


Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. If I missed to note any other info that may be helpful in deciding or determining which camera would be better suited for my application please let me know.


While the pricing is not a deciding factor for me, I wanted to mention that Amcrest is currently offering a little discount on their camera bringing the pricing close to that of the EmpireTech model.

 

[tigerwillow1]

The "elephant in the room" spec isn't similar at all:

Amcrest: 1/2.8” 8MP progressive image sensor to achieve unsurpassed low-light capability and night-vision up to 98.4 feet.
Empire Tech: 8MP, 1/1.2” CMOS image sensor, low illuminance, high definition imag;0.0005Lux@F1.0 Min. Illumination

The Amcrest camera has active deterrence, Empire Tech does not. The Amcrest claim of night vision in total darkness is laughable. Neither of these cameras can do that. You also need to consider the field of view specs for you application. The Amcrest camera gives you one choice, Empire Tech gives 3. You need to define your application and environment more precisely, and dig deeper into the details. The description and specs on the Amazon page for the Amcrest camera are mostly useless fluff. The info in pictures #2 and #8 is where the more useful info is. Compare the two mininum illumination specs, they're not even close. I have the Empire Tech camera and am highly impressed with its low light sensitivity. Both are "full color" cameras, meaning they don't respond to infrared lighting which may or may not be important in your application.

 

[JDreaming]

Yeah, these 2 cameras are totally different. The only good thing I can see from the Amcrest camera is that you have the option of using the IR light as EmpireTech 4K only have warm LED light. But with the much bigger 1/1.2” image sensor EmpireTech 4K will kick the ass of Amcrest 4K camera all night if you have some decent light in the area.

The camera from Amcrest that is basically identical to the EmpireTech camera you linked here is actually this one that is selling for $399.

https://www.amazon.com/Amcrest-Nightvision-Microphone-Detection-IP8M-TB2886EW-AI/dp/B0B13YRBPY/ref=pd_ci_mcx_pspc_dp_2_t_3?pd_rd_w=VnC8d&content-id=amzn1.sym.50b634eb-2120-4eac-9653-5e9d96f6221f&pf_rd_p=50b634eb-2120-4eac-9653-5e9d96f6221f&pf_rd_r=CGEV18PTTK3FV3PNR6B7&pd_rd_wg=yt6rH&pd_rd_r=e268c87f-bb56-4280-b2c0-ba18d13a6185&pd_rd_i=B0B13YRBPY

 

[Ri22o]

What is your DORI goal? Detect, Observe, Recognize, or Identify? 3.6mm at 45ft will not give adequate ID.

 

[looney2ns]

8mp cams are overkill.

Best all around cam at this time, THIS

If you need a little more zoom, then this ONE

 

[Ri22o]

Now that I am back on my PC, here is an image.

For reference, this is a 4MP T54IR-ZE set at 12mm. I am approx. 40ft away.

 

[Termin8r]

The "elephant in the room" spec isn't similar at all:

Thanks for pointing out that these two cameras are indeed very different. I wasn't carefully looking through the specs. I can see now there is a difference in the image sensors. So the smaller the number the larger the sensor?

And the larger the sensor, the more it will capture light and produce a better image quality?

I'm still learning a lot of this stuff but I think I'm getting a little better understanding of all this.


The active deterrence in the Amcrest is the motion activated siren? If so, I don't see this as being a necessary feature. I wouldn't want this camera to go blaring any siren anytime somebody passes by.

But to be able to manually trigger the alarm could be a useful feature.

I do see the EmpireTech has a feature called "alarm event", although I don't know if this triggers any siren or just sends me notifications.

 

[Termin8r]

Yeah, these 2 cameras are totally different. The only good thing I can see from the Amcrest camera is that you have the option of using the IR light as EmpireTech 4K only have warm LED light. But with the much bigger 1/1.2” image sensor EmpireTech 4K will kick the ass of Amcrest 4K camera all night if you have some decent light in the area.

The camera from Amcrest that is basically identical to the EmpireTech camera you linked here is actually this one that is selling for $399.

Thanks for that info. I have been looking at that other Amcrest camera which you linked for some time as well. While I don't mind paying the price for a good quality camera, if the EmpireTech is virtually identical at a much lower price then it makes no sense to pay more.

Not having the IR light is probably not so important given that my area where the camera will be located is pretty well lit at night time already. Would this be a valid assumption?

 

[Termin8r]

What is your DORI goal? Detect, Observe, Recognize, or Identify? 3.6mm at 45ft will not give adequate ID.

That is a good question. I'm including two photos. The first is a daytime view taken using a Sony HD camcorder showing the view and distances that will be ahead of the camera. I don't need much of a wide angle as you can see I have my neighbors wall and my side wall on both sides.




My sidewalk is about 44 ft from were the camera will be located. Similar distance to what you showed in your photo.

I think it would be nice to be able to identify from the sidewalk in front of my home. You said the 3.6mm would not give adequate ID at that distance. From the 3 offered lens which would be best at that distance? It seemed like the 3.6mm was closest to that distance.





The second photo is a night time view taken with my iPhone from the location where the camera will be. As you can see there is a good deal of light from the light on our side wall (as shown in the lower right corner) and the street light in front of our home.




So my camera location won't be in a total darkness area.


And thanks for posting that photos. That is a decent clear shot. Also nice having that adjustable motorized lens. Although my install will be on a side wall, I feel that the bullet type camera would be better suited for my application. And I'm really wanting to go with a 4k camera.

 

[wittaj]

You say you really want to go with a 4K camera....you really don't....

Don't chase MP.

The 4K cameras on the ideal MP/sensor ratio show that these cameras are not infinity focus and they suffer from a very small focus range of about 15-17 feet. Anything shorter than or longer than that optimal 15-17 feet will be soft/blurry.

Those of us that have been messing with these cameras for years only use 4K for overview cameras to capture in color.

Most here will say 4MP is the optimal MP for these types of cameras.

You have to decide the purpose of the camera.

IDENTIFY at 15 feet or so to your vehicle is one camera.

IDENTIFY at 44 feet at the end of your driveway is a different camera.

IDENTIFY at 81 feet across the street is yet a different camera.

One camera cannot be the be all/see all.

See this thread for the commonly recommended cameras (along with Amazon links) based on distance to IDENTIFY that represent the overall best value in terms of price and performance day and night.

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

 

[JDreaming]

Thanks for that info. I have been looking at that other Amcrest camera which you linked for some time as well. While I don't mind paying the price for a good quality camera, if the EmpireTech is virtually identical at a much lower price then it makes no sense to pay more.

Not having the IR light is probably not so important given that my area where the camera will be located is pretty well lit at night time already. Would this be a valid assumption?

The active deterrence in the Amcrest is the motion activated siren plus the red/blue color flushing light like the police car. You can manually or auto set the alarm or voice on EmpireTech 4K bullet version with 2 way audio as well. But no flushing red/blue light on this model.

The Amcrest IP8M-TB2886EW-AI ($399)and the EmpireTech IPC-Color4K-X($249) are virtually identical on the hardware side as both are Dahua OEM but probably use different firmware.

 

[tigerwillow1]

I do see the EmpireTech has a feature called "alarm event", although I don't know if this triggers any siren or just sends me notifications.

The 4k-x has a few built in audio files, and you can load your own. I downloaded a barking dog mp3 which plays when an IVS tripwire is crossed. You can have multiple tripwires or intrusion boxes, and specify a different mp3 file for each one, or none at all. If you care about seeing things at night, the lack of IR lighting is a problem unless there's enough outside lighting supplied. I find the built-in white LEDs obnoxious and don't use them. I have exactly one 4k-x to cover a long distance that's not feasible to illuminate, so I mostly give up getting an image at night. The exception is when there's bright moonlight, where it gives a pretty decent image, subject to the limitation that moving objects are blurred when the lighting is low. During the day, it's a "killer" camera. My main target point is about 150' away, and with the 3.6mm lens, it does pretty good at "recognize", but definitely not "identify". I mostly have 5442-series 4 MP cams, and the 4k-x definitely outperforms them in the one place I use it, during the day or when the moon is bright. I do not have any focus issues at long distances. Short distances, yes. The turret version (4k-t) does have additional focus problems, based on reports I have read.

 

[mat200]

Hello, trying to decide on these two POE outdoor bullet type camera's. I have for some time now been leaning towards Amcrest's cameras. Their specs and features seemed to be considered good.

Then I came across this forum and learned about the Empire Tech camera's which seem to be a very similar product.

Nonetheless, these are the two models I'm currently looking at.


Model 1: Amcrest UltraHD 4K (8MP) @ 30fps

Model 2: EmpireTech 4K (8MP) @ 30fps


Can anybody offer the pro's and cons of each camera in comparison with each-other (aside from the pricing)?

Based on the specs they seem to be similar although I may be missing something? I'm not very proficient at all but know I want a good quality 4K camera at 30fps capable of displaying clear videos.

The camera itself will be mounted about 9ft from the ground. The sidewalk that runs in front of my home will be about 45ft in distance from the camera. Would be nice to have a good view and sight of the area in front of the camera.

I'll also note that the area in front of the camera will not be entirely dark at night. There is an exterior wall light about two feet below the camera and there is also a street light on our sidewalk in front of our home. So were not in total darkness.


Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. If I missed to note any other info that may be helpful in deciding or determining which camera would be better suited for my application please let me know.


While the pricing is not a deciding factor for me, I wanted to mention that Amcrest is currently offering a little discount on their camera bringing the pricing close to that of the EmpireTech model.

FYI - posting the camera info here, for reference as often Amazon data / links change ..

 

[Termin8r]

I have done a bit more reading up on all this. So much info to absorb and remember all at once. However I am getting a little better understanding of the differences with lens size, sensor size, field of view and MP.

As shown in the photos I posted, I'm not covering a very wide area so would likely do better with a larger lens size (for a smaller field of view)?

The area being covered is also has a good amount of ambient lighting and I also don't mind the white LED lights from the camera being on at night. I feel that having the White LED lights visible at night can also serve as a visual deterrence.

Being able to see colors at night can be helpful. I would very much like to have this capability.



In all honesty, I originally mentioned were I felt the distance from the camera to the sidewalk in front of my house would be the ideal location to be able to identify. Although now I'm not sure if this is considered the best spot for identify.

And at nighttime our cars are parked in that area were I won't be seeing too much of the sidewalk (from that camera view), although I should be able to see the top part of anybody passing by over the parked cars.


Does empiretech have an optical zoom camera that has night color?

If not, I think the bigger fixed lens might do me better than the 3.6mm I originally posted. I'm now leaning towards this one here ----> EmpireTech 4K-X 6mm.

My mounting will be on a vertical side exterior wall. No horizontal mounting. For this reason I felt the bullet type camera would be better suited. Unless a turret can be mounted horizontally and the video can be rotated?

I feel like I still have lot's to learn.

 

[Termin8r]

The flashing red and blue lights on the Amcrest is not a big deal for me.

I do find that having the ability to load up audio files with the EmpireTech is a nice touch. I like that and can also see this as an active deterrence.

 

[wittaj]

There is not a good full color varifocal camera.

Keep in mind the only difference between a camera labeled as "full color" is they come with white visible lights instead of infrared.

You CAN force a camera with infrared to all color if you have enough visible light.

You CANNOT force a full color camera to use infrared as they do not see it.

So for most it is better to buy a camera with infrared in the event enough visible light cannot be provided. Especially if you want optical zoom.

 

[Ri22o]

Here are some more images, for reference.

Color photos are a 3.6mm Color4K-X.
B/W photos are from the T54IR-ZE at 12mm.
Distance is approx. 16-18'.

 

[Termin8r]

You CAN force a camera with infrared to all color if you have enough visible light.

I have seen a few odd no name brand optical zoom/varifocal cameras online that claim to have full color. Although I would rather stick with a reputable trusted brand.


Thanks for pointing out the differences with full color cameras. I have seen some fixed lens Amcrest cameras offering both infrared and white lights. For instance the Amcrest camera I originally linked here had both IR and white led.

Interesting on how you say night color can be achieved on a camera that has only IR with enough visible light. That makes sense as I have a 2k 4MP Amcrest video doorbell that does display color at night and it's not using any type of built in white leds. I believe it's only the IR. Although it does note "low light technology - night color" under the product information.

I do have a porch light set on low which is providing enough illumination to show color at night.






Here's two photos showing a daytime view and the second is the nighttime view. The picture and color quality does look better during the day.


The forcing of color on an IR camera is done through software tweaking or would this happen automatically based on lighting?

If it's anything like my doorbell camera, I think that would mean that the having white led lights on the camera would make the color night vision look cleaner or sharper when comparing to IR. Just my thoughts.

 

[Termin8r]

Here are some more images, for reference.

Color photos are a 3.6mm Color4K-X.
B/W photos are from the T54IR-ZE at 12mm.
Distance is approx. 16-18'.

Thanks for showing those photos. Very nice to have a view of what the 3.6mm Color4K-X looks like at night. I'm guessing this is with the white led lights on?

The colors are very vivid and the quality looks very good. Light years better than my Amcrest doorbell IR night vision.



The 12mm looks nice also and I do see how you can identify at a closer range much better. So could you force color on the T54IR-ZE as wittaj mentioned above?

Would be interesting to see what that would look like.

I do see how the 3.6mm color camera makes a good over view type of camera. I think I'm going to try out the same one but with the 6mm lens for a less of a wider view and a little better identify than the 3.6mm at that range.

This will be my first security camera (aside from the doorbell) which if I find that it doesn't serve the area well I can always move it to another location. I would like to add an additional two more in the front of the house and another 2 or 3 in the backyard which is nearly pitch dark black at night.


After all of what I have learned so far (and I'm sure I only touched the surface), it's sounding more like I'm going to need several different types of cameras depending on where I'm installing them (as I have been hearing here).


While I may come to learn that my first choice may not truly be best suited for my designated area, I also feel that it's better than not having anything installed. This seems like the type of thing that has to be seen in person to really know if it's what you were looking for.

 

[Ri22o]

Thanks for showing those photos. Very nice to have a view of what the 3.6mm Color4K-X looks like at night. I'm guessing this is with the white led lights on?

The colors are very vivid and the quality looks very good. Light years better than my Amcrest doorbell IR night vision.



The 12mm looks nice also and I do see how you can identify at a closer range much better. So could you force color on the T54IR-ZE as wittaj mentioned above?

Would be interesting to see what that would look like.

I do see how the 3.6mm color camera makes a good over view type of camera. I think I'm going to try out the same one but with the 6mm lens for a less of a wider view and a little better identify than the 3.6mm at that range.

This will be my first security camera (aside from the doorbell) which if I find that it doesn't serve the area well I can always move it to another location. I would like to add an additional two more in the front of the house and another 2 or 3 in the backyard which is nearly pitch dark black at night.


After all of what I have learned so far (and I'm sure I only touched the surface), it's sounding more like I'm going to need several different types of cameras depending on where I'm installing them (as I have been hearing here).


While I may come to learn that my first choice may not truly be best suited for my designated area, I also feel that it's better than not having anything installed. This seems like the type of thing that has to be seen in person to really know if it's what you were looking for.

No, I don't run the onboard LEDs, I have 1500 lumen bulbs in my coach lights. They give enough light for the 4K-X, but it's still too dark for the T54IR-ZE to be ran in color. I do have IR floods across the front of the house that give more light for it to be ran in B/W though.