Home CCTV advice

[prout20]

Hi everyone. Hope all well at this time. I am living in Kent, UK. Iam in the market for a 4 camera home CCTV system. I am very much a novice and the more time I research the more confused I am becoming. I have a 16 port POE switch at home to hard wire as much as I can. I would like to install 2/3 camera's on the house and 1 on the garage, which is about 30m from the house (ethernet it to the house). I was open to a system that came with a dedicated NVR and so am considering a Reolink system. (Reolink RLK8-520D4 – 5MP 8-Channel PoE Security Camera System) or (Reolink RLK8-800D4 - 4K UHD 8-Channel PoE Security Camera System) etc.

However, I have been made aware of the Annke offering (ANNKE 4K HD 8CH POE Security CCTV System 4X 8MP Four Times 1080P IP Camera Support Ultra Digitally Zoom In,2.8mm Wide Angle,IP67 Weartherproof,Built in 2TB HDD For 24/7 Continuous Recording: Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools).

Or is a Amcrest camera any good? (Amazon.com : Amcrest UltraHD 4K (8MP) Outdoor Security IP Turret PoE Camera, 3840x2160, 164ft NightVision, 2.8mm Lens, IP67 Weatherproof, MicroSD Recording (128GB), White (IP8M-T2499EW) : Camera & Photo)

I don't know which system or camera's would be better? The Ubiquiti camera's seem very expensive for what they are.

The camera's would need to be located about 3.5m from the ground. Therefore, should I go for 2.8mm or 4mm lenses at this height? I was hoping to go for at least a 4MP resolution camera's. I would be happy to record 24/7 in a lower resolution but if there was any movement picked up then record in a higher resolution.

In addition, I appreciate that a "package" solution includes a dedicated NVR, which may has a positive impact on overall price. However, I was also considering buying a Qnap (TS-251+) NAS drive as a home cloud / backup solution. Would the forum suggest integrating the CCTV system to a NAS system and therefore doing without a dedicated NVR or is this more complicate by having to purchase extra NAS CCTV licenses etc?

Finally, I have just come across Blue iris. Is this the route to go? How do you record the cctv footage? Why I also want to avoid is any security issues and try to keep the home system very much a "home" local system, so any tips around this would be great appreciated. Should I avoid using the internet for the cctv system? Any pointers?

Anyway, I am a novice and any advice / recommendations would be greatly received.

Thanks.
Paul

 

[wittaj]

Lorex and Amcrest are both re-branded Dahua cams with features stripped out of them to appeal to the masses - i.e. plug and play. Reolink will be useless video at night on motion and nothing you can do to fix it.

Do a search on the forum for those kits. They will never perform well at night and certainly not at 164 feet at night despite the "claim". Actually most cameras will not work at the rated "IR" distance except for maybe a nice still shot - add some motion and that distance drops exponentially.

You will quickly be disappointed in those which I believe are 2.8mm cameras, especially at night.

Too many people get fascinated with 4K and the wide angle views that 2.8mm and other "all in one units" and such can provide and chase megapixels. But the picture is really no different than taking a pic from the same place with a cell phone - take that picture and then zoom in and it is a pixelated mess. At night, a 4K camera with those sensors will be even worse.

You would be shocked how close someone needs to be to a 2.8 lens in order to ID them.

Look at this chart below - the person would need to be within 13 feet to recognize them with a 2.8mm lens. As I tell my neighbors with their 2.8 mm cams on their house saying they can recognize people at the street, I am like that is only possible if you already know the person and be able to recognize them based on their walk, clothing, body type, etc., but put a total stranger in the frame and the picture will be fairly useless. I recognize most of the people I see on my 2.8mm overview cam, but a total stranger goes by and not much you could tell the police, maybe clothing color, but nothing to identify them.

You can detect someone at 75 feet and beyond and maybe be able to "recognize" them if you know them and can tell their body dimension, walk, etc., but will never be able to identify a stranger or have a good enough image to share with the police.

You would need probably around 32mm for 75 feet. In cameras, a 2.8mm versus a 32mm results in a dramatic improvement over a distance.

And you will see because of that small lens size, that if you digital zoom, it is a pixel blurry mess real fast.

My neighbor was bragging to me how he only needed his 4 Lorex cams to see his entire property and the street and his whole backyard. His car was sitting in the driveway practically touching the garage door and his video quality was useless to ID the perp not even 10 feet away.

When we had a thief come thru here and get into a lot of cars, the police couldn't use one video or photo from anyone's system that had fixed 2.8mm or 3.6mm cams - those cams sure looks nice and gives a great wide angle view, but you cannot identify anyone at 15 feet out. At night you cannot even ID someone from 10 feet. Meanwhile, the perp didn't come to my house but walked past on the sidewalk at 80 feet from my house and my 2MP varifocal zoomed in to a point at the sidewalk was the money shot for the police.

In fact my system was the only one that gave them useful information. Not even my other neighbors $1,300 4K Lorex system from Costco provided useful info - the cams just didn't cut it at night. His system wasn't even a year old and after that event has started replacing with cameras purchased from @EMPIRETECANDY on this site based on my recommendation and seeing my results - fortunately those cams work with the Lorex NVR. He is still shocked a 2MP camera performs better than his 4K cams...and his NVR doesn't allow for live video or playback of all 8 cams at that resolution either.

My first few systems were the box units that were all 2.8mm lens and while the picture looked great in daytime, to identify someone you didn't know is impossible unless they are within 10 feet of the camera, and even then it is tough. You are getting the benefit coming to this site of hearing thoughts from people that have been there/done that.

Not all NVRs are created equal. These kit NVRs only allow around 80Mbps bandwidth, so even if the cameras are 4K, you can never pass that much data to the NVR. Once I costed out an NVR to meet my needs, it was more economical to get a stand-alone computer and Blue Iris. I will never go back to an NVR now - Blue Iris is so much nicer.

 

[sebastiantombs]

Mounting the cameras at 3.5m will give you wonderful shots of the top of heads and nothing usable for identification purposes. At most a camera should be no higher than 2m with, maybe 2.5m being acceptable. I have yet to hear of a camera being damaged by a vandal on this forum, with thousands of users reporting things. In terms of a lens size, @wittaj is correct. Avoid Reolink like it has the plague, pure junk (I know from experience).

My standard welcome -

Start out by looking in the WiKi in the blue bar at the top of the page. There's a ton of very useful information in there and it needs to be viewed on a computer, not a phone or tablet. The Cliff Notes will be of particular interest although the camera models listed there are a generation old at this point. The best way to determine what kind of camera you need in each location and where each location should really be is to buy one varifocal camera first and set up a test stand for it that can be easily moved around. Test using that, viewing using the web interface of the camera, during the day and at night. Have someone walk around behaving like a miscreant and see if you can identify them. There is also information for choosing hardware and securing the system along with a whole bunch of other good stuff.

Don't chase megapixels unless you have a really BIG budget. General rule of thumb is that a 4MP camera will easily outperform an 8MP camera when they both have the same sensor size. Reason being that there are twice as many pixels in the 8MP versus the 4MP. This results in only half the available light getting to each pixel in an 8MP that a pixel in the 4MP "sees".

A dedicated PC doesn't need to be either expensive to purchase or to run. A used business class machine can be had from eBay and various other sources. The advances made in Blue Iris make it easily possible to run a fairly large system on relatively inexpensive hardware which also makes power consumption low, as in under 50 watts in many cases. The biggest expenses turn out to be hard drives for storing video and a PoE switch to power the cameras and, of course, the cameras themselves.

Three rules
Rule #1 - Cameras multiply like rabbits.
Rule #2 - Cameras are more addictive than drugs.
Rule #3 - You never have enough cameras.

Quick guide -

The smaller the lux number the better the low light performance. 0.002 is better than 0.02
The smaller the "F" of the lens the better the low light performance. F1.4 is better than F1.8
The larger the sensor the better the low light performance. 1/1.8" is better (bigger) than 1/2.7"
The higher the megapixels for the same size sensor the worse the low light performance. A 4MP camera with a 1/1.8" sensor will perform better than a 8MP camera with that same 1/1.8" sensor.

Don't believe all the marketing hype no matter who makes the camera. Don't believe those nice night time captures they all use. Look for videos, with motion, to determine low light performance. Don't believe all the marketing hype no matter who makes the camera. Don't believe those nice night time captures they all use. Look for videos, with motion, to determine low light performance. Rule of thumb, the shutter speed needs to be at 1/60 or higher to get night video without blurring.

Read the reviews here, most include both still shots and video.

Rule of thumb, the shutter speed needs to be at 1/60 or higher to get night video without blurring.

The 5442 series of cameras by Dahua is the current "king of the hill". They are 4MP and capable of color with some ambient light at night. The 2231 series is a less expensive alternative in 2MP and does not have audio capabilities, no built in microphone, but is easier on the budget. The 3241T-ZAS has similar specs as the 2231 and has audio. There are also cameras available from the IPCT Store right here on the forum and from Nelly's Security who has a thread in the vendors section.

5442 Reviews

Review - Loryata (Dahua OEM) IPC-T5442T-ZE varifocal Turret

Review-OEM Loryta IPC-T5442T-ZE Varifocal 4mp camera (Dahua)

IPC-T5442T-ZE Varifocal from @EMPIRETECANDY 4MP WDR Turret Varifocal Network Camera Review unit courtesy of Andy (@EMPIRETECANDY) in exchange for a fair and honest review. Andy's ipcamtalk store: link Andy's AliExpress store: link Andy's Amazon store: link Price Approximately US $200.00...

ipcamtalk.com

Review - OEM IPC-B5442E-ZE 4MP AI Varifocal Bullet Camera With Starlight+

Review - OEM IPC-B5442E-ZE 4MP AI Varifocal Bullet Camera With Starlight+

All, thanks to Andy (@EMPIRETECANDY ) we have a new 4MP AI camera for testing. This camera has been provided by Andy in exchange for a fair and honest review. This camera is using the OEM model number of IPC-B5442-ZE which is the equivalent of the Dahua IPC-HFW5442-ZE for reference. The IPC-B...

ipcamtalk.com

Review-OEM 4mp AI Cam IPC-T5442TM-AS Starlight+ Turret

Review-OEM 4mp AI Cam IPC-T5442TM-AS Starlight+

Dahua OEM IPC-T5442TM-AS from EMPIRETECANDY 4MP WDR Turret AI Network Camera Review unit courtesy of Andy (@EMPIRETECANDY) in exchange for a fair and honest review. Andy's ipcamtalk store: link Andy's AliExpress store: link Andy's Amazon store: link Price Approximately US $160 Link to camera...

ipcamtalk.com

Review IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED (Turret, Full Color, Starlight+)

Review IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED (Full Color, Starlight+)

Dahua OEM IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED from EMPIRETECANDY 4MP WDR Turret AI Network Camera Review unit courtesy of Andy (@EMPIRETECANDY) in exchange for a fair and honest review. Andy's ipcamtalk vendor forum: link Andy's AliExpress store: link Andy's Amazon store: link Andy's Email: kingsecurity2014...

ipcamtalk.com

Review: IPC-HDBW5442R-ASE-NI - Dahua Technology Pro AI Bullet Network Camera

Review: OEM IPC-B5442T-ASE-NI 4MP Pro AI Starlight Full-color Fixed Bullet

Many thanks once again to Andy @EMPIRETECANDY we have for testing the OEM IPC-B5442T-ASE-NI 4MP Starlight+ Full Color bullet. This camera has been provided by Andy in exchange for a fair and honest review. This is a fixed 3.6mm bullet (Pro AI) series with the 1/1.8” sensor. It has no built in...

ipcamtalk.com

2231 Review
Review-OEM IPC-T2231RP-ZS 2mp Varifocal Turret Starlight Camera

Review-Dahua IPC-HDW2231RP-ZS Starlight Camera-Varifocal

Again courtesy of @EMPIRETECANDY EmpireTech Andy we have a new cam to look over. Its a new model in Dahua's new Lite H265 Series of cam's. Available for purchase here: Aliexpress.com - Online Shopping for Electronics, Fashion, Home & Garden, Toys & Sports, Automobiles and more Price is approx...

ipcamtalk.com

3241T-ZAS Review

Review-OEM IPC-T3241-ZAS 2mp AI Lite series Varifocal

IPC-T3241-ZAS from EMPIRETECANDY 2MP WDR Turret Varifocal AI Network Camera Review unit courtesy of Andy (@EMPIRETECANDY) in exchange for a fair and honest review. Purchase in the IPCT Store Andy's ipcamtalk vendor forum: link Andy's AliExpress store: link Andy's Amazon store: link Price...

ipcamtalk.com

Less expensive models -

Budget Dahua Cams or china alternatives under $100?

Well here we go. I dont see anywhere more approriate to discuss this. Ive been messing around with putting together a cctv system for close to 3 years now. Ive bought everything i needed and also bought 2 cheap cams from a third party seller on walmart. Those cams cost me a grand total of $50...

ipcamtalk.com

VPN Information Thread

VPN Primer for Noobs

The internet is a force of nature; no video surveillance system made was designed to be exposed to those forces.. NEVER FORWARD PORTS to your NVR or Cameras, doing such things not only exposes you to severe security problems, but everyone else on the internet too.. Hackers dont want your video...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[prout20]

Lorex and Amcrest are both re-branded Dahua cams with features stripped out of them to appeal to the masses - i.e. plug and play. Reolink will be useless video at night on motion and nothing you can do to fix it.

Do a search on the forum for those kits. They will never perform well at night and certainly not at 164 feet at night despite the "claim". Actually most cameras will not work at the rated "IR" distance except for maybe a nice still shot - add some motion and that distance drops exponentially.

You will quickly be disappointed in those which I believe are 2.8mm cameras, especially at night.

Too many people get fascinated with 4K and the wide angle views that 2.8mm and other "all in one units" and such can provide and chase megapixels. But the picture is really no different than taking a pic from the same place with a cell phone - take that picture and then zoom in and it is a pixelated mess. At night, a 4K camera with those sensors will be even worse.

You would be shocked how close someone needs to be to a 2.8 lens in order to ID them.

Look at this chart below - the person would need to be within 13 feet to recognize them with a 2.8mm lens. As I tell my neighbors with their 2.8 mm cams on their house saying they can recognize people at the street, I am like that is only possible if you already know the person and be able to recognize them based on their walk, clothing, body type, etc., but put a total stranger in the frame and the picture will be fairly useless. I recognize most of the people I see on my 2.8mm overview cam, but a total stranger goes by and not much you could tell the police, maybe clothing color, but nothing to identify them.

You can detect someone at 75 feet and beyond and maybe be able to "recognize" them if you know them and can tell their body dimension, walk, etc., but will never be able to identify a stranger or have a good enough image to share with the police.

You would need probably around 32mm for 75 feet. In cameras, a 2.8mm versus a 32mm results in a dramatic improvement over a distance.

And you will see because of that small lens size, that if you digital zoom, it is a pixel blurry mess real fast.

My neighbor was bragging to me how he only needed his 4 Lorex cams to see his entire property and the street and his whole backyard. His car was sitting in the driveway practically touching the garage door and his video quality was useless to ID the perp not even 10 feet away.

When we had a thief come thru here and get into a lot of cars, the police couldn't use one video or photo from anyone's system that had fixed 2.8mm or 3.6mm cams - those cams sure looks nice and gives a great wide angle view, but you cannot identify anyone at 15 feet out. At night you cannot even ID someone from 10 feet. Meanwhile, the perp didn't come to my house but walked past on the sidewalk at 80 feet from my house and my 2MP varifocal zoomed in to a point at the sidewalk was the money shot for the police.

In fact my system was the only one that gave them useful information. Not even my other neighbors $1,300 4K Lorex system from Costco provided useful info - the cams just didn't cut it at night. His system wasn't even a year old and after that event has started replacing with cameras purchased from @EMPIRETECANDY on this site based on my recommendation and seeing my results - fortunately those cams work with the Lorex NVR. He is still shocked a 2MP camera performs better than his 4K cams...and his NVR doesn't allow for live video or playback of all 8 cams at that resolution either.

My first few systems were the box units that were all 2.8mm lens and while the picture looked great in daytime, to identify someone you didn't know is impossible unless they are within 10 feet of the camera, and even then it is tough. You are getting the benefit coming to this site of hearing thoughts from people that have been there/done that.

Not all NVRs are created equal. These kit NVRs only allow around 80Mbps bandwidth, so even if the cameras are 4K, you can never pass that much data to the NVR. Once I costed out an NVR to meet my needs, it was more economical to get a stand-alone computer and Blue Iris. I will never go back to an NVR now - Blue Iris is so much nicer.

Thank you. What camera's do you use / recommend?

 

[wittaj]

Depends on what you are trying to accomplish and how far away you want to be able to IDENTIFY a person. I have a mix of 2.8mm cams to a PTZ, all selected for a specific purpose. Trying to ID someone at 10 feet is one type of camera; 75 feet is another. Wide angle just to see what is going on versus being able to actually identify dictates the cameras.

I have a mixture of many of the cameras that @sebastiantombs has linked above.

What is helpful is if you could provide an aerial map of the property you want to cover and where you would like cameras and what you hope each will capture and folks here can better pinpoint the cams that would fit the need.

 

[samplenhold]

You have been given great feedback so far.

You need a plan. Read the Cliff Notes and check out the WIKI.

Once you get some of the background, you will have to decide on how to interface with the cams. Basically the choices are a dedicated NVR, a PC running cam software, like Blue Iris, or if you have a NAS that has cam software using that. People on this forum, in general, have decided one over the other. Though I have seen posts of folks that use both an NVR and a software solution at the same time. I have the QNAP TS-251+ and, in the beginning, I used the Surveillance software for my cams. But eventually I did not like it and went with Blue Iris and a PC.

If you decide to go the NVR route, it is a good idea to choose all one brand of cams and NVR. Mixing brands will give you headaches. However, if you go the PC and BI route, then mixing brands of cams is fine. Personally I have gone with all Dahua cams. I believe in fit-for-purpose planning. Currently have over 21 cams recording, spread over 11 different models.

You need to decide on cams. But in order to do that, you need to understand what you want from the system. And I mean specifically, not just 'I want to be able to monitor the house'. What does that mean specifically? Front door coverage? Back door coverage? Do you have your cars parked on the street or in the driveway? How are you going to get ethernet to those locations? So before buying cams, define what you want from the overall system, and then where do you need cams to achieve that overall plan. Once you have defined where cams need to be, you need to define what each cam's job is. Then you define what attributes that cam needs to have to get the job done. Once you have that defined, you make the buying decision based on the merits of the cam satisfying those requirements.

Say you wanted to buy a house. There are obvious requirements that all houses should have, like a roof, locking doors, electricity, you get the idea. But you also have other requirements that are specific to your personal needs. Like maybe 4 bedrooms, two car garage, three and a half baths, etc. Well the same goes for your camera plan. And that plan will evolve over time as you gain experience and knowledge of how cams work. My plan is currently nothing like my first plan of two years ago.

Here is an example:
I want to be able to identify anyone that comes to my front door. By identify I specifically mean that I get a good enough face shot that could be used as a mug shot by the police. Plus I want to be able to get info on clothing color and types, any visible tats, and any voice or other sounds they make. I also want to be able to observe their gait and see where they came from and where they went after being at my front door. If a car was involved, I want make, model, color, and any other info including plate number. Oh, and all of this has to be done in both daylight and after dark. My front door faces South and has some issues with lighting and access. It has different lighting depending on time of day, time of year, and rain or shine. I have plenty of lighting on the porch and there are street lights near by. But the door is set back from the rest of the porch and I live on a corner. See photo.

I used a varifocal cam on a test rig (as defined in the Cliff Notes) to test different positions at different times and lighting. It became apparent that to get good face shots at the front door and it's approach, I would need more than one cam. I ended up with four cams at the front door. Two mounted at five feet and two mounted at one foot looking up. This gives me a great chance of getting an unobstructed face shot no matter where the sun is shining from and no matter what head covering they are wearing. I then have a cam mounted on one of the porch pillars facing back towards the door so that I get the person leaving. Another cam mounted on the left side of the porch looking across the length of the porch to catch any access that does not come up the walkway. I also have three high mounted overview cams that cover the streets (I live on a 'T' intersection) so that I can see where the person came from and where they went. I also have two cams for LPR and another cam focused on the 'T' intersection for vehicle make, model, color, etc. That is twelve cams spread out over eight different models. Each model was chosen based on the requirements for that specific view/location.

An example of the requirements for the intersection cam:
Needs to be able to run in full color at night overlooking the intersection such that I can identify make, model, color, any damage/stickers, and any other identifying parameters from stopped or moving vehicles. This has to be able to be done in a distance range of 40-80 feet. Would be nice to get plates, but I do not expect to get that in low light from moving vehicles since I have dedicated LPR cams for that. Need to be able to get a good description of people walking through the corner 24/7. Now I just needed to find the right cam.

So I had three cams I had bought for installation in other parts of my home and tested them in the location I wanted to put this cam. One was an older cam that I had replaced from my driveway. This was an HDW5231R-ZE which is a 2MP on a 2/2.8" sensor with a 2.7-13.5mm varifocal lens. This was the top dog for low light two years ago when I bought it. By using this cam in that position, I learned that I needed more zoom than 13.5mm. I also needed better night color performance. I had a T5442TM-AS in 2.8mm fixed lens that I was about to install covering my front door and porch. This is the fixed lens turret brother of the Z4E. This test told me that while the 2.8mm was way to wide a view (which I knew already) the 4MP on a 1/1.8" sensor gave me great color night performance that allowed me to see all of my requirements. So that lead me to getting the B5442E-Z4E, which is an 8-32mm varifocal bullet 4MP on a 1/1.8" sensor. Below are a few examples of performance.



Hope this helps.

 

[prout20]

THANK YOU VERY MUCH. This is a lot of fantastic info to consider and digest. Simply considering an off the shelf complete package like a Reolink solution is not something that should be rushed into. I will review all the very useful comments and consider the way forward. Many thanks ALL. Ciao.

 

[EMPIRETECANDY]

Dahua IPC-HFW1831E (2018 low light 4K) vs IPC-HDW4421C (Chinese 4MP)

At last, I have upgraded my two Chinese-region 4 megapixel cameras to the new IPC-HFW1831E which is Dahua's new 1/1.8" 8 megapixel camera, and I have some comparison snapshots to show off. I would not draw too many conclusions from the difference in color saturation, as these cameras were never...

ipcamtalk.com

bp2008 made a great review here, camera though a little old, but still be a very good 4k 1/1.8cmos mini bullet cam