Hot Cameras?

Elgato54

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I just started playing with an Amcrest
IP8M-T2669EW-AI

It seems to run on the warm side. Indoor with a room temp of 75F it runs at 100F at idle. (measured on housing surface)
Frightening to think just how hot it will run with outdoor temps in the 110 to 120 range.

Is this to be expected from a turret 8MP camera? Are bullets any cooler?

Do any other cameras run cooler?

Comments?

Thanks
 

wittaj

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Yes, these cameras can get warm. Even more so as I mentioned in your thread from yesterday, that trying to force 8MP on the same sensor that a 2MP sensor is on, coupled with it probably being then placed on the same CPU as the 2MP, and the camera is going to run hot with CPU maxing or almost maxing out.

There are cameras that run even hotter. Some run cooler. Generally a bullet can feel cooler because it has its internals spread out more and not up against the mounting surface when compared to a crammed turret mounted against the surface.

The Dahua booby cam is one of the hottest running cameras around (2 cameras on one unit with what many of us believe the same CPU as a one camera) coming in at around 125 degrees inside and folks here, including myself, have ran them for years outside with no problem.

 
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tigerwillow1

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Your temp sounds about right to me. My dahua cams generally pull between 3 and 4 watts with the IR off. How hot would you expect the housing to get with a 3 to 4 watt incandescent bulb in it instead of a camera? That's how hot the case will be.
 

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I bought two refurbed Amcrest indoor PTZ on Newegg that Amcrest was selling. One got so hot that I couldn't pick it up! Eventually it crapped out. So if it's not getting that hot, you should be ok. The first one was ok, did run sightly hot, but nothing like the second one. Lesson learned, test out your refurb (and new) devices before the return date expires :oops:.
 

Elgato54

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Yes, these cameras can get warm. Even more so as I mentioned in your thread from yesterday, that trying to force 8MP on the same sensor that a 2MP sensor is on, coupled with it probably being then placed on the same CPU as the 2MP, and the camera is going to run hot with CPU maxing or almost maxing out.

There are cameras that run even hotter. Some run cooler. Generally a bullet can feel cooler because it has its internals spread out more and not up against the mounting surface when compared to a crammed turret mounted against the surface.

The Dahua booby cam is one of the hottest running cameras around (2 cameras on one unit with what many of us believe the same CPU as a one camera) coming in at around 125 degrees inside and folks here, including myself, have ran them for years outside with no problem.

I am new to this but I have run a lot of cable and did a bunch of research. This is the first decent camera that I have purchased and actually played with which is why I am asking so many questions.
You seem to dislike the design of this camera? A lot of compromises to get 8MP at a reasonable price? Can you recommend a better turret?
Thanks again for the help.
 

wittaj

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That is just it, a lot of compromises to get 8MP at a reasonable price. And will result in poor night time performance after you dial it In and not run on auto settings that results in blur motion.

It is simple LOL do not chase MP - do not buy a 4MP camera that is anything other than a 1/1.8" sensor. Do not buy a 2MP camera that is anything other than a 1/2.8" sensor. Most 4k are on the same sensor as a 2MP and thus the 2MP will kick a 4k butt all night long as the 4k will need 4 times the light than the 2MP... 4k will do very poor at night unless you have stadium quality lighting (well a lot of lighting LOL).

My neighbor was bragging to me how he only needed his four 4k 2.8mm fixed lens cams to see his entire property and the street and his whole backyard. His car was sitting in the driveway practically touching the garage door and his video quality was useless to ID the perp not even 10 feet away.

When we had a thief come thru here and get into a lot of cars, the police couldn't use one video or photo from anyone's 4k 2.8mm or 3.6mm cameras - those cams sure looks nice and gives a great wide angle view, but you cannot identify anyone at 15 feet out. Especially my other neighbor that installed eight 4k 2.8mm cameras on the 2nd floor soffit. At night you cannot even ID someone from 10 feet. Meanwhile, the perp didn't come to my house but walked past on the sidewalk at 80 feet from my house and my 2MP varifocal zoomed in to a point at the sidewalk was the money shot for the police that got my neighbors all there stolen stuff back.

So my bragging neighbor ended up replacing several of his 4k cameras that he had spend $1,300 on and got a few of the 2MP cameras like I have because they kicked his 4k camera butt at night. When do we need the cameras to perform - usually at night.

His cameras were Lorex and yours is an Amcrest - both made by Dahua and essentially the same camera. Many of my cameras are Dahua...so I am not knocking the manufacturer per say, but for Amcrest to sell a 4k camera at $120 means that corners were cut, but my IPC-T2231T-ZS that is a 2MP varifocal in the $120 price range does better at night than my neighbor's 4k Lorex. And my 2MP is about the price of the Amcrest.

The current 4MP king of the hill is the 5442 series Dahua cams, that are 4MP on a 1/1.8 sensor. Those will be $160 to $200+ depending on if you get a fixed lens or a varifocal. Personally I would spend $40 more to have a camera that performs at night than one that all I could tell the police is what time something happened.

If you really want 4k, the current king of the hill is the Hikvision DS-2CD2087G2-L, but it is double the cost of your Amcrest, but also has double the sensor size, so it absolutely rocks at night. With very little light, this camera can stay in color with a fast shutter.

Of course YMMV. But I have 2MP, 4MP, and 5MP Dahua's on the same 1/2.8" sensor and the 2MP outperforms the 4MP and 5MP because of the additional light needed for a higher MP camera.

That is great that you are asking questions. Now you need to make sure that you dial it in to actually be useful. Running it on auto settings will result in poor night time video with motion, and once you do that, you will see the limitations 4k on that sensor has.
 
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mat200

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I just started playing with an Amcrest
IP8M-T2669EW-AI

It seems to run on the warm side. Indoor with a room temp of 75F it runs at 100F at idle. (measured on housing surface)
Frightening to think just how hot it will run with outdoor temps in the 110 to 120 range.

Is this to be expected from a turret 8MP camera? Are bullets any cooler?

Do any other cameras run cooler?

Comments?

Thanks
Hi Elgato54

Many cameras will run warm.. try to ensure they are not in direct sunlight if you live in a very warm place..


1619405783945.png
 

Elgato54

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That is just it, a lot of compromises to get 8MP at a reasonable price. And will result in poor night time performance after you dial it In and not run on auto settings that results in blur motion.

It is simple LOL do not chase MP - do not buy a 4MP camera that is anything other than a 1/1.8" sensor. Do not buy a 2MP camera that is anything other than a 1/2.8" sensor. Most 4k are on the same sensor as a 2MP and thus the 2MP will kick a 4k butt all night long as the 4k will need 4 times the light than the 2MP... 4k will do very poor at night unless you have stadium quality lighting (well a lot of lighting LOL).

My neighbor was bragging to me how he only needed his four 4k 2.8mm fixed lens cams to see his entire property and the street and his whole backyard. His car was sitting in the driveway practically touching the garage door and his video quality was useless to ID the perp not even 10 feet away.

When we had a thief come thru here and get into a lot of cars, the police couldn't use one video or photo from anyone's 4k 2.8mm or 3.6mm cameras - those cams sure looks nice and gives a great wide angle view, but you cannot identify anyone at 15 feet out. Especially my other neighbor that installed eight 4k 2.8mm cameras on the 2nd floor soffit. At night you cannot even ID someone from 10 feet. Meanwhile, the perp didn't come to my house but walked past on the sidewalk at 80 feet from my house and my 2MP varifocal zoomed in to a point at the sidewalk was the money shot for the police that got my neighbors all there stolen stuff back.

So my bragging neighbor ended up replacing several of his 4k cameras that he had spend $1,300 on and got a few of the 2MP cameras like I have because they kicked his 4k camera butt at night. When do we need the cameras to perform - usually at night.

His cameras were Lorex and yours is an Amcrest - both made by Dahua and essentially the same camera. Many of my cameras are Dahua...so I am not knocking the manufacturer per say, but for Amcrest to sell a 4k camera at $120 means that corners were cut, but my IPC-T2231T-ZS that is a 2MP varifocal in the $120 price range does better at night than my neighbor's 4k Lorex. And my 2MP is about the price of the Amcrest.

The current 4MP king of the hill is the 5442 series Dahua cams, that are 4MP on a 1/1.8 sensor. Those will be $160 to $200+ depending on if you get a fixed lens or a varifocal. Personally I would spend $40 more to have a camera that performs at night than one that all I could tell the police is what time something happened.

If you really want 4k, the current king of the hill is the Hikvision DS-2CD2087G2-L, but it is double the cost of your Amcrest, but also has double the sensor size, so it absolutely rocks at night. With very little light, this camera can stay in color with a fast shutter.

Of course YMMV. But I have 2MP, 4MP, and 5MP Dahua's on the same 1/2.8" sensor and the 2MP outperforms the 4MP and 5MP because of the additional light needed for a higher MP camera.

That is great that you are asking questions. Now you need to make sure that you dial it in to actually be useful. Running it on auto settings will result in poor night time video with motion, and once you do that, you will see the limitations 4k on that sensor has.
This seems like a pretty good camera for $120. I started searching for cameras with larger sensors and they cost about twice as much or more. Here is a pic from my 1440 monitor. If a car is pulling out of the driveway, about 40 ft, you can barely read the license plate. Zooming makes it worse. I will check it out again after dark. You are right, why go through all the effort if they are not providing the most important information. 2.8 seems to give me the width I need. Do you think a 4MP with a 1/1.8 would be a big improvement?
 

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wittaj

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Yeah, digital zooming only works in the movies and on TV - you need a camera that is optically zoomed to the area you want to cover.

And that is the issue that the general consumer wants and the Amcrest and Lorex and Rings and Arlos and Reolinks of the world provide - they want wide angle, see the whole neighborhood in 4K. But that comes at a cost and that is it becomes an overview camera that rarely can be used to IDENTIFY.

If possible, please share a picture of a vehicle at 40 feet being able to read the plate. Would you be able to IDENTIFY a stranger at 40 feet or read a plate you do not know?

How does this camera perform at night with motion? I am sure on auto settings with no motion the image probably looks great. But I can make a 720P camera look like noon at midnight with no motion in the image, but motion will be a complete blur. When do we want these cameras to perform - at night! Almost any camera can do fine in the day.

I believe, and most here would agree, that the 4MP on the 1/1.8 sensor would be a huge improvement over an 8MP on a 1/2.8 sensor. Factors better in improvement. I have two identical cameras - one is 4MP and one is 2MP on the exact same sensor and the 2MP kicks the 4MP butt all night long.

An analogy to try to understand why cameras need so much more light - let's look at a 4MP camera and this 4MP needs at least twice the amount of light as a 2MP at night for the same sensor. The sensor size is the same in each camera, but when you spread the "screen" of 4MP worth of pixel holes across the same sensor, it now has double the holes, but also double the "screen material" than the 2MP. A 4K camera would need 4 times the light of a 2MP or double the light of a 4MP for the same sensor.

Kind of hard to explain, but lets try to use a window screen as an analogy - take a window where the opening is fixed - that is the sensor - you add a screen to it (that represents 2MP) and looking out through the screen is a little darker because of the screen material. Now replace that screen with one that has double the holes (now it represents 4MP) and it will be darker looking through it because (while the resolution would be better) there is more screen material. At night time, look out your window with and without the screen and it will be darker looking through the screen than without it. If you are looking out your window to see the stars or the moon, do you look out the part of the window with the screen, or the upper portion without the screen material? Now obviously as it relates to a camera, you need to balance the amount of pixel holes with the screen material - too few holes (and thus less screen material) and the resolution suffers, and too many holes (and thus more screen material) and the more light that is needed.
 

wittaj

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I am taking a guess here that you probably are running the camera on default and auto settings? Your picture looks pretty washed out above which leads me to believe it is on default settings.

You can probably get by with that in the day, but not at night. If you are running IR at night, I would suggest you tilt the camera down some as the IR bounce off the soffit will mess with the picture quality.

Light is certainly a much needed friend to these types of cameras!

If you are on auto/default, in most situations at night it will produce a nice bright picture and great picture, but motion is complete crap with blurring and ghosting.

In my opinion, shutter and gain are the two most important and then base the others off of it.

Many people do not realize there is manual shutter that lets you adjust shutter and gain and a shutter priority that only lets you adjust shutter speed but not gain. The higher the gain, the bigger the noise and see-through ghosting start to appear because the noise is amplified. Most people select shutter priority and run a faster shutter than they should because it is likely being done at 100 gain, so it is actually defeating their purpose of a faster shutter.

Go into shutter settings and change to manual shutter and start with custom shutter as ms and change to 0-8.3ms and gain 0-50 (night) and 0-30 (day)for starters. Auto could have a shutter speed of 100ms or more with a gain at 100 and shutter priority could result in gain up at 100 which will contribute to significant ghosting and that blinding white you will get from the infrared.

Now what you will notice immediately at night is that your image gets A LOT darker. That faster the shutter, the more light that is needed. But it is a balance. The nice bright night image results in Casper during motion LOL. What do we want, a nice static image or a clean image when there is motion introduced to the scene?

So if it is too dark, then start adding ms to the time. Go to 10ms, 12ms, etc. until you find what you feel is acceptable as an image. Then have someone walk around and see if you can get a clean shot. Try not to go above 30ms as that tends to be the point where blur starts to occur. Conversely, if it is still bright, then drop down in time to get a faster shutter.

You can also adjust brightness and contrast to improve the image.

You can also add some gain to brighten the image - but the higher the gain, the more ghosting you get. Some cameras can go to 70 or so before it is an issue and some can't go over 50.

But adjusting those two settings will have the biggest impact. The next one is noise reduction. Want to keep that as low as possible. Depending on the amount of light you have, you might be able to get down to 40 or so at night (again camera dependent) and 20-30 during the day, but take it as low as you can before it gets too noisy. Again this one is a balance as well. Too smooth and no noise can result in soft images and contribute to blur.
 

wittaj

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Here is a post in another thread just today where someone has a 8MP on the larger 1/1.8 sensor and says the 5442 series 4MP is better at night...so using that, the 5442 would be a significant improvement over a 4k on a smaller 1/2.8 sensor.

I have 2 of the 1 1/8” 2831 vari and they are great in daytime. Ok at night but not as good as 5442’s. I have super bright floodlight so its stays in color all night so i like the higher resolution.


 

Elgato54

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I am taking a guess here that you probably are running the camera on default and auto settings? Your picture looks pretty washed out above which leads me to believe it is on default settings.

You can probably get by with that in the day, but not at night. If you are running IR at night, I would suggest you tilt the camera down some as the IR bounce off the soffit will mess with the picture quality.

Light is certainly a much needed friend to these types of cameras!

If you are on auto/default, in most situations at night it will produce a nice bright picture and great picture, but motion is complete crap with blurring and ghosting.

In my opinion, shutter and gain are the two most important and then base the others off of it.

Many people do not realize there is manual shutter that lets you adjust shutter and gain and a shutter priority that only lets you adjust shutter speed but not gain. The higher the gain, the bigger the noise and see-through ghosting start to appear because the noise is amplified. Most people select shutter priority and run a faster shutter than they should because it is likely being done at 100 gain, so it is actually defeating their purpose of a faster shutter.

Go into shutter settings and change to manual shutter and start with custom shutter as ms and change to 0-8.3ms and gain 0-50 (night) and 0-30 (day)for starters. Auto could have a shutter speed of 100ms or more with a gain at 100 and shutter priority could result in gain up at 100 which will contribute to significant ghosting and that blinding white you will get from the infrared.

Now what you will notice immediately at night is that your image gets A LOT darker. That faster the shutter, the more light that is needed. But it is a balance. The nice bright night image results in Casper during motion LOL. What do we want, a nice static image or a clean image when there is motion introduced to the scene?

So if it is too dark, then start adding ms to the time. Go to 10ms, 12ms, etc. until you find what you feel is acceptable as an image. Then have someone walk around and see if you can get a clean shot. Try not to go above 30ms as that tends to be the point where blur starts to occur. Conversely, if it is still bright, then drop down in time to get a faster shutter.

You can also adjust brightness and contrast to improve the image.

You can also add some gain to brighten the image - but the higher the gain, the more ghosting you get. Some cameras can go to 70 or so before it is an issue and some can't go over 50.

But adjusting those two settings will have the biggest impact. The next one is noise reduction. Want to keep that as low as possible. Depending on the amount of light you have, you might be able to get down to 40 or so at night (again camera dependent) and 20-30 during the day, but take it as low as you can before it gets too noisy. Again this one is a balance as well. Too smooth and no noise can result in soft images and contribute to blur.
Yes, I am just using the default settings. I am using this camera for testing all my location before purchasing more.
Today I drove the car through the circle drive, exiting to the street on the left. From the video clip I was able to read the plate all the way to the street which is about 40ft.
After dark I did the same thing. At no point was I able to read the plate. Almost lucky to see what kind of car it was. The headlights in the dark really seems to confuse it.
Maybe the 5442 would be able to do it?
Thanks again.
 

wittaj

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Yea, so try my suggestions in post #10 to help dial in the settings. These are critical at night to capture good images. Every camera and specific field of view will need different settings, but the recommendations are a great starting point towards getting the captures you would want in the event something happens.

Are you running color or B/W with infrared? If running B/W with infrared the shutter needs to be really fast or the plate is just a white mess. But it would probably have to be too fast that you wouldn't see anything else. You may get by a little slower shutter being a driveway.

I would certainly believe the 5442 would produce a better image. Or the Hikvision DS-2CD2087G2-L if you have any ambient light at all, but that is a lot more expensive!
 

wittaj

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You were asking if we thought the 5442 series camera would be that much of an improvement over the Amcrest you have. Here is a post from another thread showing the Amcrest 4k with a slightly larger sensor than yours versus the 4MP 5442 camera. I think it is clear which one is better!

 
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Elgato54

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Wow.
Would you expect the 4k camera to be better in the daylight?

I have narrowed to down to the Loryta
IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED
or the
IPCT-NITECOLOR-DM2 sold by IPcamtalk.

Very similar Dahua vs HIKvision?
 

wittaj

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In daylight the 4k camera on the same sensor could perform better than a 4MP on the same sensor simply because there is more light. But then it suffers at night.

The difference between a 4k and 4MP camera at daytime is not as great as the difference at night - and when do we want them to perform - at night! Another way to go about it - we can dial in the settings on the 4MP to address the daytime image much easier than you can adjust a 4K camera on the same sensor to a night time image.

Dahua and Hikvision are very comparable. Many here, such as myself, have both brands.

I would caution the nitecolor camera though - while it is a solid performer and with some ambient light will perform very well, if you do not have light, it will suffer. All cameras need light, simple physics. The cameras marketed as 24/7 color cameras do not have infrared capabilities, so if your camera doesn't have enough light, a 24/7 full color camera will not be of much good and now you have a camera with no infrared and even if you added external infrared, the camera will not see it since it does not have an infrared filter.

I have a Full Color type camera and the LED light on it is a gimmick. It helps for a small diameter circle, but it is no different than going outside at pitch black and turning on your cell phone light - it is bright looking directly at the LED light, but it doesn't spread out and reach very far. Fortunately I have enough ambient light that I do not need the little piddly LED light on and the picture quality actually looks worse with it on, but it performs better than my other cameras when tested at the same location due to the flood light. But without some light, a camera with infrared capability is the safer bet. Many here with the camera with the LED light on it do not use it for the very same reason - it's dispersion is not very far and doesn't light up near as well as putting a floodlight up.

So unless you have streetlights or flood lights, I would go with the camera with the 5442 as it has infrared capabilities if you need it.
 

aristobrat

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I have a Full Color type camera and the LED light on it is a gimmick. It helps for a small diameter circle, but it is no different than going outside at pitch black and turning on your cell phone light - it is bright looking directly at the LED light, but it doesn't spread out and reach very far. Fortunately I have enough ambient light that I do not need the little piddly LED light on and the picture quality actually looks worse with it on, but it performs better than my other cameras when tested at the same location due to the flood light. But without some light, a camera with infrared capability is the safer bet. Many here with the camera with the LED light on it do not use it for the very same reason - it's dispersion is not very far and doesn't light up near as well as putting a floodlight up.
x2 on pretty much everything above!

I have one 5442 LED model, used for a review. After the review, I ended up disabling the LED light and moving the camera to the brightest location around my house at night (closest to a streetlight). It does OK there, but a normal 5442 (w/ IR) would do even better.

Unless someone has a need to light up a relatively small area that's right in front of the camera, I don't think the normal IR model is a better choice for most folks.
 
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