Just another new guy with a few questions

[scheitma]

Hey guys,

First of all this seems to be a great place to get some good info and find out about great cameras. I have met Cliff and Wiki but I still have a lot more to read and learn.

I currently don't have any cameras besides a new ring doorbell and I hate it. Not even reliable at catching any action but that's another story.

So I have had "real" camera interest since I bought that 6 months ago or so. Fast forward to now and I'm currently having a 2 car detached garage being built. I will use this as an office and need some cameras. Yesterday the electrician ran the power and I had him run a cat6 line as well. He will finish the rest up on Monday so I don't have much time to figure the rest out. This will be a heated garage so I guess I should figure out my wiring before they need to insulate.

So my questions I'm having are:

1. Since a single cat6 line goes to the garage, I will use a switch in the garage to connect maybe 3 cameras? The other end of the cable will then run to my router in my office in my house?

2. If I use a switch in the garage for the cameras out there, will I then be able to use another switch inside my house later if I can figure out how to run connections throughout the house? Or is there a different/better way to do this?

3. Garage is 24'x24' with a 16' door and 3' side door. I would like coverage of both of those and I imagine one inside camera in the back to face the doors. Any recommendations on those 3 cameras or if I should do it differently?

I plan on most likely getting blue iris and seeing what I can find for a dedicated pc that I would keep in the garage.

If anyone has any input or suggestions on this, that would be great! I'll try to attach a photo for reference.

Thank you

 

[samplenhold]

Welcome to the forum. Glad you have read the Cliff Notes and the WIKI.

Quick answers:

1. Yes, but if you still can, have him run three more. Cable is cheep compared to paying someone to come BACK out to run more.
2. Yes and Yes. You have to decide where you want all of your IT gear to be located. Most folks want that in their home, not a detached garage. Mine is in a bedroom closet upstairs, which is where the builder put it. It houses my alarm hardware, my ATT modem/router, switches for my internet connected devices, and some of my POE switches for my cams. I have another POE switch in the garage for the three cams I have located there. It was easier to run only one cable to the switch than three for the cams. Also allows me to add more cams later. Likewise with a POE switch in my downstairs office.

Consider physically separating the cams from the internet: as discussed in the cliff notes. You do not have to have your BI server in the garage. If you set up your network properly, you can physically access BI from any computer in your home.



3. You do not have to get all of the cams at one time. But the Dahua T5442T-ZE (aka HDW5442T-ZE) is a great varifocal cam that gives excellent low light color performance. This is the cam most are using these days.

Dahua IPC-HDW5442T-ZE 4MP Varifocal Turret - Night Perfomance testing

All @EMPIRETECANDY kindly provided 1 of these units for testing and I specifically wanted to focus on 1 area, night captures and IR as I know a number of people have been interested in understanding how this compares to the fixed lens variants in this respect and have been wanting a 4MP vari to...

ipcamtalk.com

Use it on a test rig to determine locations. Or get two off the bat and mount them on either side of the garage door in a crossing pattern. No higher than 7 feet. Still test the location before mounting them. See diagram:



In my garage I have two Dahua T2431T-AS-S2 cams. They are fairly good, especially in full light. But in the dark, they run IR. Which is fine. But I also have a T2231T-ZS-S2 on my porch that is so much better and is not that much more expensive.

Hope this helps.

 

[scheitma]

Welcome to the forum. Glad you have read the Cliff Notes and the WIKI.

Quick answers:

1. Yes, but if you still can, have him run three more. Cable is cheep compared to paying someone to come BACK out to run more.

So the single line was trenched and the sod is all replaced. I know this could all be dug back up again to run more lines, but do you think that is necessary or worth it compared to the single line that is finished now? I see you said you also have a POE in your garage with only one run going to the garage so essentially that is where I am at right now. I was hoping that single cat6 line going to the garage was fine in conjunction with having a switch in the garage. I ordered 1000' of cat6 that I will use to run from a switch to the garage cameras if indeed this a good way to do it?

2. Yes and Yes. You have to decide where you want all of your IT gear to be located. Most folks want that in their home, not a detached garage. Mine is in a bedroom closet upstairs, which is where the builder put it. It houses my alarm hardware, my ATT modem/router, switches for my internet connected devices, and some of my POE switches for my cams. I have another POE switch in the garage for the three cams I have located there. It was easier to run only one cable to the switch than three for the cams. Also allows me to add more cams later. Likewise with a POE switch in my downstairs office.

I will just change this up to have it all be inside my home office area since that is where the modem and router are right now. I can keep the BI PC there as well. If I can find a way to get the cat6 run to other parts of this older house I will just have another POE inside for the house cameras?

Consider physically separating the cams from the internet: as discussed in the cliff notes. You do not have to have your BI server in the garage. If you set up your network properly, you can physically access BI from any computer in your home.

So if I am following your diagram correctly, I will need to buy some sort of switch to place in my home office now and that is where the modem, router, and office PC are. Any example of this type of switch? Once I find a suitable BI PC, I will need to add another NIC to that PC and also another to my regular office PC? I don't think I am figuring this out correctly as now I see the office PC in the diagram also connects to the POE. In my case I was picturing that POE in the diagram being a POE in my garage and I only have that one cat6 line.

So after being confused about the diagram, I hope you can clarify how I could make this work with a single line to the garage?

3. You do not have to get all of the cams at one time. But the Dahua T5442T-ZE (aka HDW5442T-ZE) is a great varifocal cam that gives excellent low light color performance. This is the cam most are using these days.

Dahua IPC-HDW5442T-ZE 4MP Varifocal Turret - Night Perfomance testing

All @EMPIRETECANDY kindly provided 1 of these units for testing and I specifically wanted to focus on 1 area, night captures and IR as I know a number of people have been interested in understanding how this compares to the fixed lens variants in this respect and have been wanting a 4MP vari to...

ipcamtalk.com

Use it on a test rig to determine locations. Or get two off the bat and mount them on either side of the garage door in a crossing pattern. No higher than 7 feet. Still test the location before mounting them. See diagram:

Thank you for the suggestions. I most likely will order a few of the 5442's for the outside. Before digging into this, I had pictured the cameras to be mounted to the soffit. The soffit isn't done yet so I am not sure of the exact height but I would guess it will be 8'-9'. Looking at the diagram and your info and other recommendations of 7' I am wondering if I need to have them mounted elsewhere instead of the soffit? I just want to have some sort of idea of best mounting locations so I can get the cat6 run once it gets delivered and they can insulate.

Any camera recommendations and mounting locations to cover the outside of the 3' door on the side?

In my garage I have two Dahua T2431T-AS-S2 cams. They are fairly good, especially in full light. But in the dark, they run IR. Which is fine. But I also have a T2231T-ZS-S2 on my porch that is so much better and is not that much more expensive.

I will look into the T2231T-ZS-S2. That is what you would use for inside?

Hope this helps.

Yes, it helps and I appreciate the response and ideas. Sorry for so many questions, just hoping to get things right from the beginning.

 

[sebastiantombs]

A way around adding more cable, and providing electrical isolation for you main network, would be to use a dedicated RF link like the Ubiquity Nano Station Loco M5, or even M2. They're easy to set up, I managed on the first try, very reliable and will handle multiple cameras without any problems.

Amazon.com: Ubiquiti Nanostation LOCO M5 Outdoor MIMO 11n 5GHz. locoM5 (2 pack): Computers & Accessories

Amazon.com: Ubiquiti Nanostation LOCO M5 Outdoor MIMO 11n 5GHz. locoM5 (2 pack): Computers & Accessories

www.amazon.com

 

[looney2ns]

Not being a jerk, but all of this should have been decided long before now.
Don't mount cams higher than 7-8ft, or you will only see the tops of heads. Lower is better.
Put a camera at 5-6ft right next to the man door, on the door knob side.
You can use something like this: Front door ID camera IPC-HDBW4231F MiniWedge with a 2.8mm lens.

You want two cams one on each side of the garage door, no higher than 7ft, looking across each other.

Hope you used ethernet cable that is rated for direct bury and is pure solid copper. Ideally it should also be in pvc conduit as well.
Always pull more cables than you think you will need to any given location. Much easier to do all at the same time and while the walls are open.

On a real computer, STUDY the cliff notes.

 

[samplenhold]

So the single line was trenched and the sod is all replaced

So they just buried the cable? Was it classified as direct burial? If not, then you will have problems. Hopefully they placed it in a conduit and that conduit has some capacity with a pull string for future additions.

The idea of running more cables than you need is basically common sense. It is hard in the beginning to plan for the future, so running more cable than originally needed is one way to future proof.

The whole reason for at least two runs is to keep your cams and your internet traffic separate. There are basically two ways to do it. One is virtually and the other is physically. Since you will have your BI server in the house, and cams at the house, cams at the garage, and a pc that you want to access both from in the garage, then multiple lines to the garage makes sense for physically isolating the two. The physical isolation means that you have TWO SEPARATE LANs at your house. Kind of like hot and cold water pipes. One is a LAN that only carries the cam traffic. That is the LAN in red in my diagram and called sub-net 2 (the IP addresses begin with 192.168.2). The other is your normal LAN that has all of your internet accessing hardware, like laptops, smartphones (via WIFI), TVs, and desktop PCs. That LAN is black in my diagram and called sub-net 1 (the IP addresses begin with 192.168.1). Each LAN has at least one switch.

So to get your garage cams to talk to the BI server but not the internet, but allow your garage PC to talk to the internet, you would need two cables. However, if you would isolate virtually, by using VLANs, then only one cable to the garage would work. Utilizing VLANs is more complicate and requires a different type of switch that is a little more expensive. It is not hard, but you do need to know what you are doing. Many folks here use VLANs. I do not. I opted for physical separation as it just seems easier.

So if I am following your diagram correctly, I will need to buy some sort of switch to place in my home office now and that is where the modem, router, and office PC are.

Not necessarily. It would depend on the equipment you already have. Most IPs provide a modem/router combination that has four ports. If you do not need more than four ports for all of you items in LAN 1, then you do not need another switch for LAN 1. I the only cams you have will be connected to the POE switch in the garage, then the cat6 from them would connect to your BI PC. Think of a switch as an intersection. Multiple roads lead in and out.

I am going to stop posting this as it is taking a long time and others are jumping in and I do not want to repeat what they say.

 

[samplenhold]

Before digging into this, I had pictured the cameras to be mounted to the soffit. The soffit isn't done yet so I am not sure of the exact height but I would guess it will be 8'-9'. Looking at the diagram and your info and other recommendations of 7' I am wondering if I need to have them mounted elsewhere instead of the soffit?

 

[mat200]

So the single line was trenched and the sod is all replaced. I know this could all be dug back up again to run more lines, but do you think that is necessary or worth it compared to the single line that is finished now? I see you said you also have a POE in your garage with only one run going to the garage so essentially that is where I am at right now. I was hoping that single cat6 line going to the garage was fine in conjunction with having a switch in the garage. I ordered 1000' of cat6 that I will use to run from a switch to the garage cameras if indeed this a good way to do it?
..

Welcome @scheitma

Good to have you join us and share your plan and project.

You'll have to make the call at this point. Yes you can run a switch in the garage from that one cat6 line. Given one cat6 run to the garage, that is what I would do - created a LAN there. Though with 2 cat 6 runs I can run 1 LAN for the normal computers, and 1 LAN for the IP cameras - this way you can keep them isolated ( given your data center is in the main house ). ( yes - this can be done over one cat6 - but gets more complex IT wise, and imho less complexity IT wise is good.. thus why I like physical separation vs logical )

Personally I would at this point run a conduit for non-electrical lines to the building still if you have not yet done that. If you already have a conduit run that is great news.


FYI - for those on the fence watching:

1) This is why I recommend using a conduit for new detached buildings and running multiple cat6 lines in the conduit, or fiber ( better re lightning ) - underground runs the cable should be underground rated.
2) This is why we recommend planning a lot more ahead of time.
3) Also I do recommend N+1 cat6 lines for each location, especially when running additional lines are easy.

 

[scheitma]

Not being a jerk, but all of this should have been decided long before now.
Don't mount cams higher than 7-8ft, or you will only see the tops of heads. Lower is better.

Not taken as being a jerk. Totally understand it and you're right that it should have been decided before now. It was a last minute decision and didn't really consider the need until recently. It seems like the 7'-8' is the consensus. Before researching this I would have assumed it would be best to have them higher and out of the way of "visitors" or people looking to vandalize an easy target.

Put a camera at 5-6ft right next to the man door, on the door knob side.
You can use something like this: Front door ID camera IPC-HDBW4231F MiniWedge with a 2.8mm lens.

The 5'-6' is the height from the ground for this camera? How many feet from the side of the door?

You want two cams one on each side of the garage door, no higher than 7ft, looking across each other.

The 5442 turrets will be ideal for this?

Hope you used ethernet cable that is rated for direct bury and is pure solid copper. Ideally it should also be in pvc conduit as well.
Always pull more cables than you think you will need to any given location. Much easier to do all at the same time and while the walls are open

Well I wanted to come here to tell you it was great on the cat6. I was told that the electrician used direct burial cat6. I watched him run the electrical and cat6 and there's not any conduit. So when I went and looked at the cat6 writing, I am assuming it is meant for conduit. Superior Essex 4 PR 23 Enduragain OSP UTP (Formerly BBD) CAT 6 is what it says. After trying to do some research, from my guesstimates it seems like it is not direct burial and should be in conduit. I cut a little more of the outer jacket and I don't see any sort of shielding or armor they say is direct burial from the brochure. I messaged the contractor who has the electrician subcontracted and he'll be here tomorrow morning to check that out. If it has to be re-done, how many lines would you run? More than one I am sure.

Thanks for your input

 

[looney2ns]

Not taken as being a jerk. Totally understand it and you're right that it should have been decided before now. It was a last minute decision and didn't really consider the need until recently. It seems like the 7'-8' is the consensus. Before researching this I would have assumed it would be best to have them higher and out of the way of "visitors" or people looking to vandalize an easy target.


The 5'-6' is the height from the ground for this camera? How many feet from the side of the door?

The 5442 turrets will be ideal for this?

Well I wanted to come here to tell you it was great on the cat6. I was told that the electrician used direct burial cat6. I watched him run the electrical and cat6 and there's not any conduit. So when I went and looked at the cat6 writing, I am assuming it is meant for conduit. Superior Essex 4 PR 23 Enduragain OSP UTP (Formerly BBD) CAT 6 is what it says. After trying to do some research, from my guesstimates it seems like it is not direct burial and should be in conduit. I cut a little more of the outer jacket and I don't see any sort of shielding or armor they say is direct burial from the brochure. I messaged the contractor who has the electrician subcontracted and he'll be here tomorrow morning to check that out. If it has to be re-done, how many lines would you run? More than one I am sure.

Thanks for your input

There appears to be gel on the single wires you have cut open, so that would indicate it is bury rated.

5442's are perfect.

5-6ft from the top of the concrete pad you have formed up. You want it close to face level for most folks as they approach the door.

How close to the door? 5-6 inches from the brick mold. You may want another camera at the back of the garage looking towards the front of the garage along that wall to catch the window and the garage door. You want to know who did it, not just what happened.

If you need to rerun cat 6, then at least 3 as others have suggested.

 

[samplenhold]

Your first pic looks like there is gel on the twisted pairs. Is that so? If this is gel filled, then it is waterproof. I would imagine that the jacket is fine for direct burial if it is gel filled. Usually the media ads say something like 'direct burial rated' or 'UV resistant' or 'Gel filled/waterproof'.

It seems like the 7'-8' is the consensus

Do not miss-read this 'consensus'. That is the recommended MAXIMUM mounting height, not the height you should mount at.

 

[looney2ns]

Not taken as being a jerk. Totally understand it and you're right that it should have been decided before now. It was a last minute decision and didn't really consider the need until recently. It seems like the 7'-8' is the consensus. Before researching this I would have assumed it would be best to have them higher and out of the way of "visitors" or people looking to vandalize an easy target.


The 5'-6' is the height from the ground for this camera? How many feet from the side of the door?

The 5442 turrets will be ideal for this?

Well I wanted to come here to tell you it was great on the cat6. I was told that the electrician used direct burial cat6. I watched him run the electrical and cat6 and there's not any conduit. So when I went and looked at the cat6 writing, I am assuming it is meant for conduit. Superior Essex 4 PR 23 Enduragain OSP UTP (Formerly BBD) CAT 6 is what it says. After trying to do some research, from my guesstimates it seems like it is not direct burial and should be in conduit. I cut a little more of the outer jacket and I don't see any sort of shielding or armor they say is direct burial from the brochure. I messaged the contractor who has the electrician subcontracted and he'll be here tomorrow morning to check that out. If it has to be re-done, how many lines would you run? More than one I am sure.

Thanks for your input

Review-OEM Loryta IPC-T5442T-ZE Varifocal 4mp camera (Dahua) | IP Cam Talk

 

[scheitma]

So they just buried the cable? Was it classified as direct burial? If not, then you will have problems. Hopefully they placed it in a conduit and that conduit has some capacity with a pull string for future additions.

I was told it would be direct burial. After your posts I tried to research to make sure things were good, but now I am not positive. You can see my post above and the photos and brochure of the Superior Essex cable. If they have to redo it and run conduit, how many lines should I get? A pull string should also be used? Not sure how that works but I am hoping they should know. Tomorrow morning they will be here so I hope I can get things redone and add extra lines. It seems like having conduit would be ideal vs any direct burial anyway. If I can simplify all of this with extra lines then I definitely would rather do that.

Not necessarily. It would depend on the equipment you already have. Most IPs provide a modem/router combination that has four ports. If you do not need more than four ports for all of you items in LAN 1, then you do not need another switch for LAN 1. I the only cams you have will be connected to the POE switch in the garage, then the cat6 from them would connect to your BI PC. Think of a switch as an intersection. Multiple roads lead in and out.

I have a separate modem and an old ASUS RT-N66U Dual-Band Wireless-N900 Gigabit Router...didn't realized how old it is until I checked my Amazon history. Seems to work fine for now but I could upgrade that if need be.

In your photo for the big door cams, I am also getting lights installed in those locations. How would you arrange the combo? Lights towards the outside edges and cameras closer to the door or cameras above or both?

Thanks

 

[samplenhold]

I will look into the T2231T-ZS-S2. That is what you would use for inside?

I like that cam. But there are several others designed for indoors that may be better suited for your use.

You need to make a plan. I believe in fit-for-purpose selection of cams. You need to decide what it is you want shown of the office, what the lighting will be, how obvious the cam will look, and then pick the appropriate cam.

I was told it would be direct burial. After your posts I tried to research to make sure things were good, but now I am not positive. You can see my post above and the photos and brochure of the Superior Essex cable. If they have to redo it and run conduit, how many lines should I get? A pull string should also be used? Not sure how that works but I am hoping they should know. Tomorrow morning they will be here so I hope I can get things redone and add extra lines. It seems like having conduit would be ideal vs any direct burial anyway. If I can simplify all of this with extra lines then I definitely would rather do that.

There is something to be said about running extra cable. It took me a long time to figure out how to get cables from my main attic (where the large conduit drop to my IT closet is) to the attic space over my garage so that I could put two cams looking at my driveway and put a drop in the garage for cams. 'I know I will NEVER need more than three cables down there' so I ran a 1/2" PVC conduit from that area to the main attic. Was a pain in the ass to do. Well then I decided to put in LPR and the only way I could get cables there was from above the garage. So this time I said 'There is no way I will need more than 4 cables' so I ran 3/4" PVC conduit right next to the 1/2". Well when I was still trying to get cable from above the garage to the front porch (waiting for the temps to drop below 98F), I had plenty of time to think about IDing the color, make, model, etc of cars that LPR grabbed plates on. And yup, need two more cables. BUT I did leave a pull line in each conduit. Your plan evolves over time. Accept that and try to plan for it.

 

[scheitma]

There appears to be gel on the single wires you have cut open, so that would indicate it is bury rated.

There is definitely some sort of gel in it. I tried to find exactly what cable it is to know for sure if it is fine without conduit. I guess if it is fine I will have to see if they will dig it back up and run a few more lines.

 

[sebastiantombs]

If it has gel in it, it's meant for direct burial.

 

[samplenhold]

In your photo for the big door cams, I am also getting lights installed in those locations. How would you arrange the combo? Lights towards the outside edges and cameras closer to the door or cameras above or both?

We always say to test the install BEFORE running cable and mounting the cams. You could still do this by having the cables come down from the ceiling inside the outer wall but leave plenty of extra length to allow you to place it anywhere on that area. As long as you know exactly where the line drops, you could carefully cut the access hole for the wire and find it with a coat hanger. How are you planning to have the electrician end the wires for the cams? Are they going to just be sticking out of the siding? Or is he placing a box in the wall with the cat6 inside it? What will be the final covering of this wall? Brick, hardy plank, cedar siding, vinyl siding?

As far as coach lights on the side of your garage door, they can cause glare. But the more conventional lighting you have the better. One rule of thumb is to mount the cams such that they do not point across the light fixture. See pic


So if the coach light is in green and the cam is red, the cam is pointed to the left so mount the cam to the left of the light, preferably lower than the light. In these cases turrets are especially nice as they are less obvious than bullets.

Do not worry about people damaging your cam. That rarely happens.

 

[mat200]

..Superior Essex 4 PR 23 Enduragain OSP UTP (Formerly BBD) CAT 6 is what it says. After trying to do some research, from my guesstimates it seems like it is not direct burial and should be in conduit. I cut a little more of the outer jacket and I don't see any sort of shielding or armor they say is direct burial from the brochure. I messaged the contractor who has the electrician subcontracted and he'll be here tomorrow morning to check that out. If it has to be re-done, how many lines would you run? More than one I am sure.

Thanks for your input

Hi @scheitma

Looks like they've picked a good cable from looking at the pictures... though yes, on the specs looks like it would need to be the armored version for direct burial.

I still prefer running in conduit to give the cable runs some physical protection vs shovels.

 

[Frankenscript]

View attachment 73884

Hi @samplenhold , thank you for posting that diagram. I have my system set up essentially as you diagrammed, with two NICs on the BI PC, but it never occurred to me to put a second NIC in my main desktop, configure that to the same subnet as the cameras, and connect it in to the camera switch, so that it can directly access the cameras. That's brilliant (or, more like, I'm an idiot for not thinking to do this). I've been having to remote into the BI PC to do things like log on to the camera web interfaces. Time to get another NIC card and run another cable!

 

[scheitma]

We always say to test the install BEFORE running cable and mounting the cams. You could still do this by having the cables come down from the ceiling inside the outer wall but leave plenty of extra length to allow you to place it anywhere on that area. As long as you know exactly where the line drops, you could carefully cut the access hole for the wire and find it with a coat hanger. How are you planning to have the electrician end the wires for the cams? Are they going to just be sticking out of the siding? Or is he placing a box in the wall with the cat6 inside it? What will be the final covering of this wall? Brick, hardy plank, cedar siding, vinyl siding?

Yes, this makes sense to test before mounting. That is one of the reasons I am searching for so much input. Not much planning before this so now I am scrambling. The electrician isn't handling anything to do with the cameras. He has to finish a few fixtures and outlets tomorrow and then his part would be done.

I am the one undertaking the rest of the camera install. I am sure my contractor would help if I have issues but I knew I would have to have lines run to the appropriate areas before he starts closing everything up. The outside is vinyl to match the house. Is there special mounting when using vinyl?

Thanks again for all of your input and time.