Large setup IP cam help

[h_2_o]

OK I'll start off by saying I've done quite a few 16 or less camera systems (normally grandstream) on blue iris and honestly it is pretty straight forward. However recently a friend came to me because the local guys are seriously trying to screw him over for cameras at his bar quoting $25k plus, now I am not going to ask "hey figure out the setup for me" but I will be asking for help on some specific parts because he is fairly tech savvy to and wants to go hik as well. Also any input on anything not noted or questioned is welcome. All cameras wanted we are looking at a minimum of 720p. There is a need for approximately 32 cameras total. So here goes, and thanks for any help.

Here is the camera total's and what I am looking at.
either 1x32 camera hik nvr or if price is to crazy on that 2x16 hik camera nvr

4 outdoor fixed weatherproof
2 outdoor ptz weatherproof
2 indoor ptz
24 indoor fixed

Because this is inside a nightclub it is always low light my main concern is low light bullet or dome cameras. To me it does not matter which as long as it is low light. The problem I'm having finding this specific camera or the camera I'm looking for is first off that I see good low light cameras but most are IR driven. Well because it is a nightclub and even though it is low light because of the stages, flashing lights etc.... I'm a bit concerned that the cameras will be in a never ending cycle of on/off IR illumination and a good image never comes through. Has anyone dealt with this specific problem before and do you have any suggestions on it?

and I understand this one is 110% personal opinion but here goes anyway is it worth it to go through aliexpress to get the steup and save a few bucks or alternately go through someone like LTS (yup i know rebranded hik) and get the warranty, known US cameras, and support?

I'm sure more questions will come up as i figure this out again thanks for any and all help.

 

[CoreyX64]

and I understand this one is 110% personal opinion but here goes anyway is it worth it to go through aliexpress to get the steup and save a few bucks or alternately go through someone like LTS (yup i know rebranded hik) and get the warranty, known US cameras, and support?

This is entirely up to you as you said, as you (er...the bar owner) are the one purchasing the devices. Personally, I always go with pre-patched Chinese cameras and US NVRs. Generally, there is absolutely no reason you need to update the firmware on the cameras, so I'm comfortable doing that. As such, they can stay at whatever version they ship with, and they will be compatible with US NVRs. Generally you should not have any problems with Chinese cameras. I haven't for the good 3 years that I've been importing them. Reason? I don't touch the firmware. They work fine as is. As long as you understand the support is lacking (beyond limited email support), and that the warranty is usually a little less (1 year vs 3), there's very little you can do to screw these up. It sounds like you're somewhat familiar with the whole regional restriction scenario which helps in the decision a lot. On a larger scale, the price savings are obviously more noticeable. I am speaking entirely from personal experience working with these cameras for about 3 years. Everyone's opinion on this will differ, but as long as you are aware the pros and cons of each, I can't tell you which way to go, only explain this from my perspective.

Because this is inside a nightclub it is always low light my main concern is low light bullet or dome cameras. To me it does not matter which as long as it is low light. The problem I'm having finding this specific camera or the camera I'm looking for is first off that I see good low light cameras but most are IR driven. Well because it is a nightclub and even though it is low light because of the stages, flashing lights etc.... I'm a bit concerned that the cameras will be in a never ending cycle of on/off IR illumination and a good image never comes through. Has anyone dealt with this specific problem before and do you have any suggestions on it?

There is a timing threshold that can be set in the cameras (5s is the default I believe) to adjust how sensitive the camera is to switching the IR on and off. I have a setup in a union hall that is rented out for parties, weddings, events, etc. and DJs with tons of flashing lights is a common occurrence. As long as the main hall lights (fluorescent) are off, they stay in IR mode throughout any and all stroboscope scenarios.

As far as the IR throw, what is your intended distance? The stock economy line cameras 2xxx and 3xxx lines are rated for 30M. I think that might be a hair of a stretch, but overall I think they do fine for even the hall needs. Their turret cameras have better IR than domes, so if you think that's pushing it, you may want to look into those. I can post some screenshots of the night/day with dome cameras in the hall setting. That's about as close as it gets as far as relating to a nightclub is concerned.

either 1x32 camera hik nvr or if price is to crazy on that 2x16 hik camera nvr

It's about $150 price difference. It's the same physical recorder, just supports beyond 16 cameras. Please do be aware that beyond 16 cameras you will need a secondary PoE switch to power the 16 beyond the NVR's built in switch. Still less cost than purchasing 2 16CH NVRs. The NVR would be a DS-7732NI-E4/16P.

All cameras wanted we are looking at a minimum of 720p

Hikvision IP cameras typically come no less than 1080p, most 3 and 4MP nowadays. Decent image quality for a decent price.

the local guys are seriously trying to screw him over for cameras at his bar quoting $25k plus

A lot of this is probably labor, although I do agree that's expensive. Unless they give you a per-unit cost for each component being sold to you, even factoring in markup, the labor is where expense is always incurred. Do-it-yourself is always cheaper and in my opinion, well worth it, IF you know what you're doing and understand the struggles involved. Most of that labor is running wire/conduit. Configuring is the easy part.

4 outdoor fixed weatherproof
2 outdoor ptz weatherproof
2 indoor ptz
24 indoor fixed

Outdoor and indoor are going to be the same with Hikvision in most cases. I'm not sure that Hikvision makes an indoor-specific camera (they might, I've never purchased one) but generally they are all outdoor rated/weather resistant. I would suggest some models, but not sure your desired image quality (1080p/2MP, 3MP, 4MP) and that will change numbers a bit.

 

[h_2_o]

to clear things up a bit on the installer quotes, the numbers given were for hardware only and it was still analog stuff. You gotta love living in smaller towns and the crooks out there.

as for the low light cam's I hate to use the word "best" because that is always a nasty word when it comes to this stuff because it is based a lot on opinion. but is there a best low light hik cam?

thanks

 

[fenderman]

Stick with the 2mp hikvisions for low light...you can also look at the longse thread with the 5mp camera using the imx178 sensor..very good low light performance, though long term reliability is unknown. Buy one of each and see which you prefer...

 

[Abbell]

I have been playing with some 4MP cameras. They are good if using a NVR or Blue Iris. An issue with any camera will also be how fast it can adjust to light changes. The best camera will do you no good if a strobe causing the camera to constantly adjust the image to match it.
One thing that you may consider is to get cameras you can dial in the zoom and focus on each camera individually. One trick I used years ago was to spray paint the camera to match the environment. For a night club buying or painting cameras black would make them stand out less. Depending on your ceiling type you can run your own wire easily ( I would guess you have an open ceiling design). Again, I would choose black to hide it. Instead of running each camera back to a main panel you can also group off sets of 7 into an 8 port POE switch and then run the one cable the distance to the main panel.
Another thing to consider... to what end are you buying cameras. Are you wanting to identify individuals causing problems, a general group view or to mitigate insurance. You may want discreet cameras to cover bar drawers, distance cameras to send to live web feeds etc. I can test a strobe against the camera I am testing to see how it reacts. 25K may seem excessive, but it can be justified as I have seen individual cameras cost upwards of 3K. The object is to understand your specific needs and then plan from there.

 

[CoreyX64]

to clear things up a bit on the installer quotes, the numbers given were for hardware only and it was still analog stuff. You gotta love living in smaller towns and the crooks out there.

as for the low light cam's I hate to use the word "best" because that is always a nasty word when it comes to this stuff because it is based a lot on opinion. but is there a best low light hik cam?

thanks

If that was just for parts and for analog parts, that's awful. Greed knows no boundaries. I can't ever imagine marking up any of my Hikvision equipment that much to customers. That's insane.

Opinion is correct. However I will always take a higher quality daytime image over IR mostly because the areas where I place cameras are intentionally put near artificial light which negates the need to drop to 2MP to increase nighttime clarity. The more artificial light, even with IR on, the better the image clarity. Higher resolution/more pixels does not always mean better overall image quality, and that's the point @fenderman is trying to get across. The caveat comes with respect to image detail and range. 2MP might not get as many intricate details further away if you blow the image up as a 4MP camera would, but the overall picture should look better and you will be able to better make out objects and details in pitch black. Your outdoor fixed cameras, if possible, put them in well lit areas. Most bars and nightclubs have decent outdoor lighting, whether it be standard parking lot area lighting, HID wall packs, or any similar lighting will help immensely. As such you may be able to get higher-res cams outside because you'll be relying less on the IR and more on the artificial light. This is part of your planning though, and artificial light is an important factor to consider. You won't have that luxury inside of course.

While reading a lot about 2MP being better in low light, with these ones it seems to be the opposite. the 3/4MP image appears less grainy (grain/artifacts is usually the core of the 2MP vs. 3MP+ argument). I suppose everyone's experience is different. These are 2135 dome cameras (3MP), 2032 bullets (3MP), and 3145 domes (4MP) not turrets or any of the other IR-outperforming cameras. Instead of me telling you in words, look for yourself. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. I took a bunch of snaps in various lighting scenarios at a few different customer locations so you have a well rounded idea of their performance. Other people on here will have experience with other makes and models, this is just what I have to offer.

2MP (3MP 2135s lowered to 2MP)



3MP



4MP










(this one needs WDR enabled as you can see the dark shadows)



On the strobe effects on the camera, while camera reaction time is something to keep in mind, sputtered light flashing will not affect a camera anywhere near a highly concentrated "hot spot" or bright beam of light will. Concentrated bright light will make the rest of the image pitch black. Mr. Spider can attest to this himself. Flashing won't affect it anywhere near as bad. The thing to remember is if your eye can't make out details when high intensity light is flashing at a rapid rate, expecting the camera to do that is not practical. In a lot of ways they behave like the human eye. (with the exception of night vision and some other perks of course)

 

[Abbell]

If that was just for parts and for analog parts, that's awful.

I tend to agree.
The camera I am reviewing costs $50 before shipping and it is 4MP.

 

[CoreyX64]

I know some analogs are better than others (anything with an IR cut filter vs. IR filter is nice), but that is an unbelievably high markup. Someone up top was counting on a nice vacation.

What make/model? Just curious. All of the Hikvision 3145 4MP's I've been ordering have been spectacular. All of the above 4MP snaps are from them.

 

[fenderman]

@CoreyX64 You are correct that the 4mp hikvision is better in low light than the 3mp (this has been demonstrated long ago by kalipsca in another thread), however, the 2mp will be better than the 4. Simply setting a 3mp to 2mp mode does nothing to help low light sensitivity.

 

[Abbell]

I am doing the review here.
The camera does pretty good actually so far. I will add more pics once I install the other two.
Here is a sample video I tried.

I like the varifocal as this camera is on the second story eave.

 

[CoreyX64]

@CoreyX64 You are correct that the 4mp hikvision is better in low light than the 3mp (this has been demonstrated long ago by kalipsca in another thread), however, the 2mp will be better than the 4. Simply setting a 3mp to 2mp mode does nothing to help low light sensitivity.

I've never worked with 2MP Hikvisions so I was not aware. Thanks for the info. I've only ever worked with 3+. Overall for the prices I've paid on everything I can't complain a whole lot. There's always room for improvement but am happy with what I've received so far. Some people have said the 4 and 3 image quality is negligible but personally I find it to have a noticeable improvement. I just gave a range of shots in different lighting conditions for comparison.

On a previous note, @Abbell +1 on painting them black though. That's a really good idea.

 

[fenderman]

I've never worked with 2MP Hikvisions so I was not aware. Thanks for the info. I've only ever worked with 3+. Overall for the prices I've paid on everything I can't complain a whole lot. There's always room for improvement but am happy with what I've received so far. Some people have said the 4 and 3 image quality is negligible but personally I find it to have a noticeable improvement. I just gave a range of shots in different lighting conditions for comparison.

On a previous note, @Abbell +1 on painting them black though. That's a really good idea.

Yes, there is certainly an improvement from 3 to 4...There is no reason to be using 3 anymore unless you really need the 4:3 format...

 

[h_2_o]

Corey, thanks a ton for the images that helps out a lot and I do like the dome cameras better they just look better. the ds-2cd3145F-I does look like a good or probably the right option, just wish they offered it in black but I can't have everything now can I. use this NVR DS-7732NI-E4/16P and throw in a couple POE switches just to make wiring easier. the nice part about that is the attic area above the bar has a 15ft ceiling so wiring hopefully will not be a nightmare. Now i'm looking at the PTZ options 4 total and when reviewing this thread https://www.ipcamtalk.com/showthread.php/10316-Suggestions-for-Weather-observation-IP-camera-PTZ-10-20X-1080p-Sub-300 I came across 2 options that look nice

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Blue-Iris-CCTV-Camera-2015-20X-Optical-Zoom-IR-150M-High-Speed-Dome-Full-HD1080P-Auto/32323387569.html
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/surveillance-mini-ip-camera-ptz-1080p-HD-2MP-infrared-IR-Speed-Dome-outdoor-p2p-20X-optical/32596356079.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.96.WbyzPd&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_10,searchweb201602_5_10017_10005_10006_10034_10021_507_10022_508_10020_10018_10019,searchweb201603_6&btsid=61c30703-e8f5-4c81-9d05-c35badafd91f

and I also found this hik on aliexpress but was unable to find any reviews on it and was curious if anyone had any thoughts on it
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/OMCCE-Hikvision-HD720P-1080P-Turbo-IR-PTZ-Dome-Camera-DS-2AE4123TI-4223TI-D-3D-intelligent-positioning/32645223859.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.2.sADNjB&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_9,searchweb201602_3_10017_10005_10006_10034_10021_507_10022_10020_10018_10019,searchweb201603_2&btsid=a5df276d-ce05-4104-ab76-4839a9d04f0b

and for my last question in this post anyway, with the hik nvr I am guessing ptz is a fairly painless process or does it need an addon joystick of sorts? and can it also be controlled via mobile app?

again thanks guys you have been a ton of help

 

[Abbell]

So out of curiosity I tested three cameras in my garage with a strobe light pointed directly at them. The analog camera with IR cut had no issue, the cheap Tennevis camera totally fried out and the Cantonk 4 MP did well.
Here is the 4MP test

Here is the analog cam test

Here is the 1MP Tennevis camera test
...there is none... it fried the camera.