Little confused on my options for NVR..

[fearthisinc]

Ok.. Bare with me here.. I am just getting into the whole camera system realm as I am in the process of building a home.. I am working out a wiring diagram for for the entire house.. Basically picking how many runs of what I want and where I want them... Getting pretty expensive.. Just for data ports in the house I am running around 38.. These are all ports that will be used to access the internet.. I also have around 40 cat6 runs going in for a whole house audio and all of that good stuff.. Anyway.. Getting back to the subject at hand.. I am trying to piece together a nice system for the house.. I have decided on going with HIKvision cameras and going with the DS-2CD2732F-I (S) domes mixed with the DS-2CD2632F-IS bullets.. I am also thinking of adding in 1 or 2 PTZ style cameras but not completely sure yet.. Anyway.. I was going over the house plans and at minimum I have come up with a 20 camera system.. Probably will end up with more for other areas on the property.. I was looking around and not understanding completely how this works.. I have found NVR's that have 16 poe ports built in but cant find any that have more then that.. I have found NVR's that say they are 32 and 64 camera NVR's and say they have 32/64 inputs but when I view photos of the product there are no inputs in the rear of the unit.. It has 1 or 2 ports and thats it.. Just wondering what my options are for this type of system.. I would also like to record in hi definition quality being that I am spending the extra on 3mp cameras.. I would also like to be able to keep recordings for roughly 1 month..

What I am trying to determine:
My data network which is currently at 38 runs of Cat6 will be wired to a 48 port switch.. I also need ports for the whole house audio/automation but should have 2 left over for camera use.. Originally I was going to do a 16 ip camera system with built in poe for all cameras and that only required 1 port on the switch.. If I go with an NVR with no poe's would this be the correct way of installing:

internet cable from provider from pole > into the cable modem > cat6 from modem to whole house 48 port switch > cat6 from whole house switch to separate 24 port poe switch (cameras will input into this unit) > cat6 from camera 24 port switch to 32 channel NVR?

 

[fenderman]

First you are going to need a router after the cable modem unless its a modem/router combo.
Then from the router or any gigabit switch after the router you can connect the NVR. The NVR's with 16 ports that have 32 camera capability need to be used in conjunction with another poe switch.

 

[fearthisinc]

Thanks for the replies.. Going over the house plans I think I am somewhere in the range of 22-24 cameras.. This would cover every inch of the exterior of the home/property with some cameras overlapping.. I was thinking of putting caameras on the interior but 50/50 on doing this as I have been reading some stories of people being hacked and cameras being accessed...

My next question would be, what size storage do I need.. for 24 cameras that are all 3mp and recording in high quality.. All cameras would record at 24 hours.. I liked the Qnap VS-8132 Pro+ which gives you 24tb, however I was looking at one of those storage calculators and it says I would need 95tb to be able to store 30 days worth of footage.. My other option was teh DS-9632-NI-XT which will do up to 64tb of storage..

 

[nayr]

Hire a professional; you seem to be able to afford it...

there is no reason to record high quality 24/7 on 24 3mp cameras, toss a few damn motion/beam sensors in there and wire em up to trigger a recording.... you really think having a high def video of your trashcan 24/7/365 makes you more secure?

Most of the 32/64ch NVR's wont come close to doing 32/64 channels @ 3MP anywase (try standard def if your lucky)... so pay someone who's done this for a decade or two and I bet in the end you'll save more money.

 

[fearthisinc]

Hire a professional; you seem to be able to afford it...

First off.. Just because I can afford someone to come in and install a full security system, does not mean I want to pay for that.. I am the type of person that would rather learn how do something on my own, rather then pay someone else to come in an do it for me.. Yes.. It sure is nice to just write a check and let someone do everything, but at the end of the day when I don't know how anything works I will be calling that person back in for minor things and then having to pay for site visits everytime I need something done.. Plus..The amount of money that I will save doing it on my own will more then cover doing anything I want.. For example if I go to the local security shop the system I want is going to cost about 15,000... Whereas if I source my own equipment I am looking at spending about 7k.. I think I would rather set the system up myself and save the 8k..

 

[nayr]

for $7k a professional would set you up a more appropriate and useful system.. if I were to follow your designs then yeah I'd charge you $15k or more and laugh my way to the bank.

I am all for DIY; but in the wrong hands a DIY can be a disaster best left for the pro's... especially when your approaching tens of thousands of dollars.

A DIY NVR that can handle 24 3MP high FPS and store 100TB of video is going to blow your budget and burn through electricity like a madman as well as have pretty high maintenance costs (replacing disks pretty regularly).. Seriously, you priced such a server? That's going to cost you $5k in just storage (25x4TB Purples @ $200 a pop)... your going to need half a rack, 30A of power and a heavy duty UPS to keep that thing running.. oops your now close to $15k and havent even installed a camera.

You can still DIY install and setup if thats your thing, but if your looking to spend this kind of money hire a professional to consult you and show you the ropes... the've spent millions on equipment and setup; there consulting costs will likely save you money in the end and provide you with a better system.. they should also give you a great price on hardware if your buying 25 cameras + extras w/out install..

Asking the internet for free advice will only get you so far...

 

[fenderman]

fearthisinc is correct. There is a personal satisfaction of settings it up yourself + the savings. That said, 22 cameras is overkill even for a large home unless its some elaborate estate. One thing to look for is the max frames per seconds the NVR can handle at your resolution see this spec sheet and calculate you bitrate at the end http://www.hommaxsistemas.com/es/descargar-archivo/1043/datasheet/
You may want to rethink the amount of cameras you are going to need.

 

[fearthisinc]

yes.. I have seen the professionals come in.. A friend of mine had a camera system installed.. He told the guy everything he was looking for.. The guy came back with the "oh but this would work some much better" or "you don't need this" and so on.. A stolen vehicle later and the camera system was worthless to make any kind of id.. You could barely make out what type of vehicle they were operating.. It was a disaster.. And yes this could have been an isolated incident.. Maybe the guy forgot to go back and work the settings.. But its not something I would like to chance.. I have a better feeling knowing that I did things, then to leave it in the hands of a stranger.. Especially when something happens and when you go back and ask what the hell they did and they just shrug their shoulders and claim that it must have been some system issue..

 

[milkisbad]

For a chart about Bandwidth vs NVR capability, give this a read~

http://oversea-download.hikvision.com/uploadfile/doc/NVR Camera Capacity based on Bit Rate.pdf

If your single NVR can't do 20 x 3 MP cameras, (I believe max frames for 3 MP cameras is 20 FPS for HIkvision.) you can use 2x NVR rated for 32 channels but just connect to 10-12 cameras on each NVR. Using two NVR will also allow you more Hard drive spaces.

 

[nayr]

try to get a free estimate; tell them money is no cost and then install it your self after they break it down for you...

I agree 24 friggin cameras seems excessive unless he lives in a warehouse liquor store; and even they dont record the way he wants too.

 

[fearthisinc]

fearthisinc is correct. There is a personal satisfaction of settings it up yourself + the savings. That said, 22 cameras is overkill even for a large home unless its some elaborate estate. One thing to look for is the max frames per seconds the NVR can handle at your resolution see this spec sheet and calculate you bitrate at the end http://www.hommaxsistemas.com/es/descargar-archivo/1043/datasheet/
You may want to rethink the amount of cameras you are going to need.

Fender - Yes.. The system is a little overkill... Some of the cameras will overlap each other.. But in my profession I have found that its the one angle you need to get the id that you don't have.. For example the guy is walking out and picks up his head and looks up.. Right where you might have put a camera, but you installed it on the other end of the alley.. or similar cases.. I actually just had a case the other day and was watching the homeowners video.. Granted the video was not the greatest but the homeowner had 1 camera along the side of their house that is adjacent to the sidewalk.. Their camera faced North and captured the sidewalk.. Well the guy was walking north (back to the camera) and literally stopped right on the side of their house.. Took his hat off and kept walking.. If the homeowner would have had a camera on the other end of the house we would have had a direct view of the guys face.. The system I am factoring will leave no area untouched and will have multiple views of the same area.. And yes. While some say "do you really need to look at the trashcans 24/7".. The answer is yes.. Because when some lowlife decides to enter my property and walks past those trashcans I will have a clear view of his face as he does so.. No matter which way he looks..

 

[nayr]

Your friend didnt get a professional he got a hack trying to sling his own shit; if there consulting only they will be alot more open and honest because its a flat fee for them to help design a system..

My wife worked for small security firm that put up cameras in big international theme parks, public transit systems, stadiums, etc.. all the people there moonlighted on the side doing quick consultations for cash and they all had enough experience they had a ton of wisdom to dish out.. you get what you pay for sometimes.. you wont find these people in the yellow pages I am afraid.

you seem like your smart enough your bullshit detector should be pretty strong against a sales person.. but you dont want them you want a tech who fixes the damn things all the time and knows what works and what dont.

Again I am all for DIY; I DIY everything and encourage it everywhere.. but when someone comes in with requirements like this it sets off alarm bells that they have no idea what there doing and a DIY approach probably wont end well... sorry, i calls em as I sees em.

A Pro will show you the choke points where you can install cameras so you wont need multiple angles, they understand human behavior and know what directions intruders are likely to take... yes put a video on your trash cans, but if there 6ft away and nothing tends to move in that area you'll probably be more effective recording at a lower resolution and wired to record off a motion sensor, thus saving your NVR the load and storage... a few new bushes planted in a few spots can assist in reducing approach options and funneling people/animals down the path you setup.

 

[nayr]

I am thinking an Intruder/Robber/Thief scoping a big house plastered with dozens of cameras at every angle would make me think there's something worth a fortune inside and go get me a friggin mask... cameras are not an end all and there are no guarantees.. my experience has taught me to be discrete and keep it simple, aka walk softly and carry a big stick.

 

[fearthisinc]

Actually the majority of intruders/thief/etc state that any obstacle is usually a deterrent.. if they have to put a mask on for my house but not for the guy next door then they will move on.. plus if you can afford security cameras, then chances are you have an alarm system.. each of those are a deterrent that the average burglar will pass up.. yes, it may signify that i have items worth protecting, but at the same time they weigh that against the risk of being caught..

 

[nayr]

Thefts of Opportunity; yes.. but Ive had them come back the next night prepared to cut off my chain, I noticed it was tampered with one day and the next day it was gone.. Had there been a camera on it he'd of seen it (thiefs look for cameras) and had a mask when he came back prepared with a plan... thats not even mentioning professionals who carry tools, look for very high value targets and come with friends and a plan.

I live in Colorado; I am convinced the house up the street is full of Marijuana for the simple fact that I can see 8 cheap cameras from the street.. There's people who scope out places like that, figure out when the plants are almost ready for harvest and then empty the building, knowing the cops probably wont even be notified.. I'd hate to get my door kicked in 3 months after planting my garden in back yard because someone saw me unloading garden supplies and saw a dozen cameras on my house and came to his own conclusion.

On the other end of the spectrum if it looks like your too paranoid some my come to the conclusion you wont be keen to involve the police.. perhaps reducing your risk of petty crimes while increasing the risk of violent ones.. laying low helps avoid either.. Its like putting a "Protected by a 357" sign on your house, now your just telling any intruders to come in armed and shoot anything that moves... yeah it might keep a homeless person away but it can create a bigger issue.

You dont have to advertise you have cameras; I am a communications security professional and as a result I instinctively notice even discrete devices most people overlook; I cant pass a radio tower, fiberoptic lines, relay station, dome cameras, access points, motion sensors, etc without taking notice and thats just because I am in the industry and working with them makes me more aware.. Criminals are honed in like a 6th sence and will often spot a camera before it spots them... except the dumb ones; and there are alot of them.. but only a dumb one would wonder into your spiders web of cameras without obscuring there identity.. there not much of a threat imho.

If you wish to overengineer your personal security I suggest investing that money instead in re-inforcing all entry points from kick ins, bar up any basement windows, buy a big ass safe, stockpile emergency supplies, and perhaps a little selfdefence/firearm training for the whole family.. much more cost effective.. Cameras are just one part of a bigger picture if you intend to keep your family safe and secure. (ive done all the above and I am just now installing cameras, and only what is nessicary to get the job done)

Tip, cover choke points with a hidden camera if you want multiple angles.. that way a trespasser whom sees the obvious camera (even a dummy one will work) right over there head and points there head and hat down to obscure its perspective will inadvertently look right into the camera you hid in the landscaping..

I still maintain you dont need full speed HD+ video of there every movement to positively identify them and prosecute adequately if your security system in whole is well designed. There is a nice middle ground between the system your friend got and what your envisioning, and thats where you need help most... without having a walk around and in person talks I dont see that being easy to extract from the internet.. thus my original comment.

 

[Beemer533]

.... While some say "do you really need to look at the trashcans 24/7".. The answer is yes.. Because when some lowlife decides to enter my property and walks past those trashcans I will have a clear view of his face as he does so.. No matter which way he looks..

Is there a specific reason you don't want to do motion detection?

Also, referring to your 30 day requirement; Obviously it is your choice, but if this is just a residence, why would you need more than a week of storage? If you get broken into, it probably won't take too much time to realize it and pull the relevant recordings...

With motion detection and reducing your storage duration down to a week, you will save a lot of money in hard drives..

 

[dr.]

Is there a specific reason you don't want to do motion detection?

Also, referring to your 30 day requirement; Obviously it is your choice, but if this is just a residence, why would you need more than a week of storage? If you get broken into, it probably won't take too much time to realize it and pull the relevant recordings...

With motion detection and reducing your storage duration down to a week, you will save a lot of money in hard drives..

That amount of cameras likely means maids/etc entering the property, not really break-ins.

 

[owenmpk]

fearthisinc, I use a Synology NAS for the NVR and they have some great tools for sizing the NAS at http://www.synology.com/en-us/support/nvr_selector
Also many Synology NASs allow chaining to expand your storage needs

 

[fenderman]

The problem with synology is their license fee per camera plus the camera limits and total FPS limits on their smaller boxes. To record 22 cameras you would need two $800 DS1513+ units plus 18 additional licenses so thats about 2500 dollars to get started...

 

[owenmpk]

Yep that is correct the camera license fee runs the cost up and you need a + unit. One way around this would be to get an i7 system running blue iris then the Synology NASs chained to get the storage space. The real issue with a system this large is the ongoing power cost to run. The i7 chip is a power sipper compared to the old P4 chips but the drives will be sucking the power.