Long outdoors netwok cable run

[Virga]

Request input on expanding network wiring from inside the house to more of the site. Here is the situation, questions follow:
Existing CamPoESwitch01lives in my “wiring center”, where all my wire home runs terminate (except electrical).
CamPoESwitch02 will be around 75 wire-feet away, down a conduit from the attic to the crawl, to the perimeter of the crawl. Conduit and Cat 6 ethernet wire already in place. I will be able to find an electrical outlet in the crawl to power this switch.
CamPoESwitch03 will be on an existing remote panel with power. From the outside of the crawl, there already exists a conduit approximately 330 conduit-feet, terminating in a junction box at either end. I have a pull-string in place in the ¾” conduit. I anticipate that from this switch several cameras could be supported. The panel comprises pressure treated 4x4’s buried in the ground, and some horizontal 1-by’s. Someday I’ll probably have to replace it, but so far it’s looking fine.

1. Which cable should I use for the 330’-plus run? That length is pushing to the theoretical ethernet limits.
From my research, people have trouble with terminations on the gel filled burial rated cable. I re-read this:
Breaking the law! Violating Ethernet Cable 328 Foot Length Limitations
I usually get supplies from Monoprice but on this topic True Cable took a deep dive therefore I have more confidence in products they are selling. Prices don’t seem out of line.
Buying cable and terminations from the same source will hopefully reduce incompatibility problems.

2. What specific switch should I use at the remote location? I’m thinking it’ll need to be at least 16 ports. With help from @samplenhold and @mat200 in another thread, the cam count is already at seven, others may chime in, and I’ve already thought up at least one more cam at the passenger side location @mat200 suggested. So we are at 9 ports already. Each cam serves a unique purpose.

3. What weathertight and lockable cabinet should I put the remote switch in? Perhaps it will have air vents.

4. What switch should I use in the crawl? It is a sealed crawl, and physical conditions are reasonable for equipment. This too could be a 16-port switch. I’ve thought up several wire pathways from the crawl to the outside, so more connectivity possibilities there.

 

[Teken]

If there is power at the other end it just makes sense to use fibre and a media converter. No worries about distance limitations as it relates to signal quality.

Even if there isn’t 120 VAC present given there is a pull string in place you can just run shielded 12-2 / 14-2 power wire with the fibre & media converter.

All of the above will offer high bandwidth, reliability, and long term safety as it relates to lightning protection.

Regardless of all the above proper single point grounding must be present. Along with the proper use and deployment of a SPD.

If you live anywhere close to lightning alley this is a must and requirement!

 

[samplenhold]

3. What weathertight and lockable cabinet should I put the remote switch in? Perhaps it will have air vents.

@bigredfish could give you some input on this as he has used some in his installations.

 

[samplenhold]

If there is power at the other end it just makes sense to use fibre and a media converter.

I agree. Also, some switches come with fiber uplink ports.

 

[Teken]

I agree. Also, some switches come with fiber uplink ports.

Absolutely, if 120 VAC is present a media converter can be replaced just with the POE Switch with a fibre uplink port.

Regardless, the two ends will be connected via fibre.

If the fibre is armoured it must be properly bonded to the homes single point electrical grounding system.

Grounding of the fibre cable can be avoided by using none armoured fibre cable or dielectric armoured fibre cable.

Lastly, I know for the average DIYer it’s easy to say buy and install indoor fibre into a conduit vs outdoor rated / direct burial fibre cable.

If you do get ready to to replace the same cable in about 2-5 years depending upon quality of sheathing!

Once water builds up in the conduit and depending upon the mineral content / salinity of the water it will eat into the casing.

 

[bigredfish]

@bigredfish could give you some input on this as he has used some in his installations.

We just used these with security screws. Pricey, I think the 20” was like $400

Allied Moulded Ultra-Line Fiberglass Series Enclosure- Lift Off Screw Opaque Cover20X16X10

Buy Ultra-Line Fiberglass Series Enclosure Lift-Off Screw Opaque Cover online in the USA at an affordable price. Lightweight with lower installation cost!

nemasupply.com

 

[Virga]

@Teken thanks for your suggestions. Fiber sounds promising and would be something new for me to work on.

Thanks for the alert on grounding. About a year ago I got coax based internet service. They brought the service in at the opposite end of the house that electrical service enters, and thus where the electrical ground rod is. They asked for a ground rod to be provide at THEIR point of entry, and so it was. Shortly thereafter, in two separate events not far apart, I lost network equipment connected downstream of their service line. Finally somebody from my ISP came out with an experienced supervising installer. This guy determined that we should be grounding to the same rod that the electrical service grounds to. So he ran a 10 gauge ground wire from the electrical ground rod into the crawl to a small ground bar. He ran their coax service line across my crawl space to that ground bar, then back across the crawl, and up to my wiring center. No more destroyed equipment since then. Whatever single point grounding is, I need to understand it better or else will likely lose equipment.

I hope the terminations on fiber make it through ¾” conduit. Knowing what I know today, I would have asked for at least 1½” conduits or greater. But ¾” conduit is what I have in place, and managed to later get a pull line into it (not hard to do, when you get to it).

In defense of average DIYers, I respectfully submit we are not always complete idiots.
True, we are average. Still, we are smart enough to ask. We are grateful for the input we receive from pro’s and the big boys & girls who frequent some of the places we frequent, like this forum.
It is true there is a lot for us to learn, and we do so every day. We get smarter every day.

@samplenhold thanks for weighing in.

@bigredfish thank you for info on cabinets/enclosures.

 

[MTL4]

1. Which cable should I use for the 330’-plus run? That length is pushing to the theoretical ethernet limits.
From my research, people have trouble with terminations on the gel filled burial rated cable. I re-read this:
Breaking the law! Violating Ethernet Cable 328 Foot Length Limitations
I usually get supplies from Monoprice but on this topic True Cable took a deep dive therefore I have more confidence in products they are selling. Prices don’t seem out of line.
Buying cable and terminations from the same source will hopefully reduce incompatibility problems.

The gel filled ethernet cable works well in a direct burial or conduit situation (I just used multiple feeds for my pool and garage in 2” conduit at around 150ft away). I've never had any issues terminating it. I use a bit of brake cleaner to remove the gel when terminating then I add more dielectric grease at the end for water proofing. Beyond about 200ft I would definitely switch to fiber. Sure you can push copper further but why when most switches now come with SFP/SFP+ ports and can easily do fiber. It’s a bit more delicate to pull fiber in a conduit so tape the connections up really well to protect them and use some dielectric grease to ensure it won’t snag at all but the signal will be rock solid at huge distances.

 

[Teken]

@Teken thanks for your suggestions. Fiber sounds promising and would be something new for me to work on.

Thanks for the alert on grounding. About a year ago I got coax based internet service. They brought the service in at the opposite end of the house that electrical service enters, and thus where the electrical ground rod is. They asked for a ground rod to be provide at THEIR point of entry, and so it was. Shortly thereafter, in two separate events not far apart, I lost network equipment connected downstream of their service line. Finally somebody from my ISP came out with an experienced supervising installer. This guy determined that we should be grounding to the same rod that the electrical service grounds to. So he ran a 10 gauge ground wire from the electrical ground rod into the crawl to a small ground bar. He ran their coax service line across my crawl space to that ground bar, then back across the crawl, and up to my wiring center. No more destroyed equipment since then. Whatever single point grounding is, I need to understand it better or else will likely lose equipment.

I hope the terminations on fiber make it through ¾” conduit. Knowing what I know today, I would have asked for at least 1½” conduits or greater. But ¾” conduit is what I have in place, and managed to later get a pull line into it (not hard to do, when you get to it).

In defense of average DIYers, I respectfully submit we are not always complete idiots.
True, we are average. Still, we are smart enough to ask. We are grateful for the input we receive from pro’s and the big boys & girls who frequent some of the places we frequent, like this forum.
It is true there is a lot for us to learn, and we do so every day. We get smarter every day.

@samplenhold thanks for weighing in.

@bigredfish thank you for info on cabinets/enclosures.

As it relates to fibre there are many types of end connectors. Generally speaking, you would be using (LC) connectors.

Since you have limited space in the conduit your choice has already been decided for you unless you had the skill, tools, and knowledge to split & join fibre.

In this case you would use a (Single Mode) LC (connector) Fibre with the same SM / LC BIDI transceiver. Essentially the BIDI transceiver transmits at two different wavelengths using a single cable vs a (MM) Multi Mode LC cable which has two separate cables joined together for RX / TX.

Grounding: As it relates to lightning protection / surge protection the key points.

- Low resistance (<25 Ohms) to Earth

- Single Point: Everything is bonded to the homes electrical grounding system.

- Wire: 6 - 12 AWG copper stranded / solid diameter wire based on the ampacity it’s expected to carry and codes in place.
As short as possible with no sharp bends in the cable. Depending upon the NEC / CEC codes in place the wire may be required to be bare copper vs insulated and coloured appropriately such as green / green yellow stripe.

Star Washer: This washer should be in place anytime a bolt / screw is used. This is the last line of defence to bite into the material and make solid contact as it relates to low resistance grounding on any metal surface.

Dielectric: This should be applied where needed to keep moisture at bay and help reduce corrosion, arcing, and insulation.

SPD: Surge Protective Device come in four (Types) and each are so rated to handle specific surge current and operate at different let through voltages. As such Type 1-3 should always be installed for layered protection. Type 4 should be in place if you want everything protected at the device level.

Type 1 is installed at the service entrance (Meter).
Type 2 is installed at the service panel (Breaker).
Type 3 is installed at the Point Of Use such as an outlet, surge strip, UPS, etc.
Type 4 is installed inline prior to any device like machinery, HVAC, Washer, etc.

Lightning Protection: There are three types / options available today. Proactive, Reactive, Hybrid systems that offer the most protection.

Proactive systems use electronics to generate positive / negative charged ions in the environment. Other mechanical systems use whiskers of wire to dissipate ions in the atmosphere.

Lightning rods are reactive and simply absorb the high voltage strike and shunt to ground the fault voltage through the wiring to earth ground.

These devices obviously only work if the lightning strikes the rod!

Lastly, there are thousands of so called stories about why something worked / didn’t. Bottom line it’s luck / no luck / to having everything perfectly in place.

There are millions of building that are struck by lightning every year and nothing ever happens after the fact. There are the same number of buildings where something always happens after the fact!

People also can not compare a communication tower made entirely of metal to a wooden building! Nor can you compare a metal building to one made out of concrete!

 

[Virga]

So far this is what I understand about fiber optic cables, and this understanding is a work-in-progress:

1. There is single-mode fiber optic cable and multi-mode fiber optic cable. Single mode is best suited for long distances, is skinnier, needs precision in installing, and is likely what utilities use though they probably have many, many fiber strands running together. Multimode fiber is fatter, can simultaneously transmit different modes of signal (data, video, voice etc.), and is suited for shorter distances. For residential applications, the fiber standard is two-strand multi-mode cable.

2. There are quite a few types of fiber termination connectors, and it is not clear to me if there is a dominant standard, though LC seems to crop up often.

3. Both ends of the fiber go into a receiver each, which plugs into a SFP port in a switch at either end (or a media converter). The media converter is incorporated in the switch. So a terminated fiber optic cable plus a transceiver at each end is a standard that goes into the SFP port at either end. The switch probably does not care what termination the fiber optic cable itself has.

4. Looks like there are indoor fiber optic cables, indoor/outdoor fiber optic cables, and burial rated fiber optic cables that have an appropriate outer armor/protection. So far it seems that an indoor/outdoor cable would be fine in a buried schedule 40 conduit, though not sure about this.

5. Terminated cable of specified length can be bought that comes with a pulling “eye/hook” at either end that is in a protective “pouch” at each end. All this is to protect the physical integrity of the cable.

6. It may be doable, but a ¾” conduit is going to be tight to pull a fiber optic cable through, because the protective “pouch” has to make it through the entire length of the conduit, around 330’ in my case. May have to wait until I get a 1½” or 2” conduit in place.

7. Outdoor PoE switches come built in IP-67 or IP-68 protective enclosures, though I have only come across 8-port such switches. Guessing that for more ports, the solution would be to daisy-chain two such switches and thus have 14 ports to work with. Heat dissipation may be the constraint for the number of ports supported in one IP enclosure. Am thinking that some kind of shading of the IP switch enclosure would be useful.

8. Fiber optic cables and outdoor switches/cabinets are not cheap. That said, even ethernet cable bought in 1,000 foot rolls is quite a bit more than whatever I paid the last time I bought several rolls.

 

[jnissen]

I just wrapped up a couple of long fiber runs at my ranch. One goes about 600 feet to the front gate to my shop. I placed the fiber in a trench along with power. IN hindsight I would use a 1" PVC conduit if I did it over. I have no way to change out the line if it's damaged and would have made post trench work a lot easier. The second run was all inside a 1" conduit from the shop to the house and it runs about 400 feet. I debated using standard CAT6A but I wanted to ensure my backbone was 10Gb to the house. Using Ubiquity network gear with built in sfp+ ports to support 10Gb to the house and a 1Gb connection to the gate. The gate has significantly less data. Bottom line is use some type of tubing as a conduit. Even the cheap black poly pipe can work if it's not kinked and smooth.

Yes the LC connectors are common and the easiest to work with IMHO. I bought two different types of fiber. One was pre-made and ground rated. It was expensive and I ended up cutting one end's connectors off anyway. If I wanted to have more confidence in the fiber I should have purchased a armored type bury rated. It's presently only a buffered with a UV tolerant outside. The buffering is some sort of aramid fiber that protects it from the majority of the stuff it will encounter. Been in the ground over a year and still working well. My second cable was a riser type cable with a UV tolerant outer coat, 12 fibers inside the one cable. Significantly less cost on this one. Bought a partial spool for pennies on the dollar. It really does not see any UV but the riser type cable was selected as it has long fibers inside to limit stretch when you pull the fiber through the conduit. I had a pusher and a puller on the conduit to help ease it into place. Used lots of electrical lubricant as well. Once into the house the cable was run into the network rack. I should have used conduit all along the entire path. Again a newbie mistake and in hindsight I would do it differently. BTW - If you use PVC conduit make sure you use the electrical type 90's and bends. They are nice and gradual allowing for easier pulling.

LC connectors - This was my biggest issue and an total unknown for me. My fiber was multi-mode 125/50 and I found some LC connectors that are field serviceable. Took a bit of practice to strip and prepare the cable. Use bright light and magnifying glass to make sure it's clean and installed properly. See videos online. I found I needed to have a slight bend in thew fiber as it went into the connector to supply a bit of tension once the final capture sliding piece was in place. The connectors are fairly forgiving and allow you to open the capture slider to reposition the fiber or try again. My first two or three attempts were not great. it worked but not well as I could see a lot of light leaking. Used a simple laser fiber tester to confirm the integrity of the fibers in all cases. See the laser also below.

See here for connectors: Amazon.com
See here for the fiber test laser:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08GZYDRCJ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

So how does it work. Great. I have a 10Gb backbone from the house to the main router. SFP+ ports were used and the LC adapters vary in quality. Used slightly less expensive SFP type LC adapters for the gate switch. I had good luck with the Cable Matters brand.
See here:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07TTKHG6T/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[Virga]

@jnissen Very helpful input, thank you!
I may be going conduit happy ... in another thread there is discussion around my moving a later planned irrigation project to sooner just so I can get conduits in the ground.
BTW I think you are referring to "sweep elbows".

 

[jnissen]

@jnissen Very helpful input, thank you!
I may be going conduit happy ... in another thread there is discussion around my moving a later planned irrigation project to sooner just so I can get conduits in the ground.
BTW I think you are referring to "sweep elbows".

Yes sweep elbows. You will find the fiber isn’t that difficult to use. The house run takes a 90 about 100 feet out. I used a pop up box to allow me to pull to that location before attempting the longer run to the house. The fiber just loops in and back out. Worked great. I have a spare conduit in the ground as well just to future proof the thing. I hate digging trenches and even with a dedicated trencher it can be tough in my rocky clay soil.

if you can afford to drop two conduits in the ground you will never wish you hadn’t dropped that second backup!

Many pros recommend single mode fiber. I didn’t look into how difficult or different the connectors were. Multimode fiber was cheap. Single mode certainly has the ability to go longer distances with low loss. I don’t know if it’s more or less tolerable for abuse.

Good luck on the install. It’s a lot of work but when you can reliably communicate over 200 yards to cameras at your gate it’s a great thing. it also allows for proximity detection, gate control, and direct intercom to a dedicated keypad/camera access node.

 

[Virga]

Thanks @jnissen.
I’ve not regretted infrastructure build outs that at the time people/installers thought was too much. Having wire and/or conduit in place becomes an enabler of new stuff. As we all know, once you set up to do something or have it done, incremental cost of additional things is lesser than if you had to set up another time later.
I’m thinking of treating my one fiber run as a long patch cable that happens to be fiber. It may be the only fiber I run. So am thinking of buying pre-terminated fiber, though it may be the pricey way to go. Besides it would be fun to do something new, and you helpfully shared relevant info on tools and parts.
Until a couple of our forum members suggested/endorsed fiber, I had not thought of doing fiber. Until then I thought fiber was something utilities do. When I read up about it, it seemed do-able. Treating the gate as part of house cabling, it would two strand multi-mode fiber. But I’m willing to go with whatever I can do myself.
Price in the marketplace can be funny. For 15 years I've bought Cat 6 ethernet cable, and it is cheaper than Cat 5 if you buy it from the right source where there is much volume in Cat 6.
At the local electric supply houses, people ask for Cat 5 because that is how they refer to ethernet cable, and they pay more than they would for Cat 6.

 

[jnissen]

Not only is the distance beyond cat6. The fiber buys you lightning protection. If I get a lightning strike out near my gate the entire area including the ground will be charged. Ground currents can fry wires and equipment so I tried to avoid that.

 

[MTL4]

I know the conduit is a bit small but even at large distance I bet using a good electrical wire lubricant and some compressed air to help move it throughout that you’d get it run alot easier than you think even with the connector on there. Fill up the conduit with the foam lubricant then use an airgun with a rag held tight and blow until for like 10 seconds (keep repeating the process until you see lubricant foam coming out the other side). I just ran very heavy wire through 3/4” conduit over 150ft with plenty of bends. Without the lubricant it wouldn’t budge after maybe 20 ft but using lubricant with some compressed air to move it through the conduit I could get the wire to slide quite easily even at full length. Fiber is alot lighter and should slide considerably easier inside a conduit.

This stuff is awesome!!!!! (available at Home Depot)

Wire Pulling Foam Lubricant - 51100 | Klein Tools

Klein Tools' Foam Wire Pulling Lubricant is a no mess, no hassle alternative to traditional wax/gel lubricants. The foam fills the conduit and coats the wires as they are pulled through. The lubricant stays where it is applied, even in vertical conduit. It also dissolves clean from hands...

www.kleintools.com

 

[abita_brewing]

+1 on the potential difference in ground, the lightning protection, and distance issues.

You can buy premade/terminated fiber lengths from amazon/etc. Just plug and play.

I'm building a pool just 50' away from the house, but will use fiber to avoid grounding/electrical issues (the whole pool/water thing). No cameras, just IP speakers.

 

[tech_junkie]

1. Which cable should I use for the 330’-plus run? That length is pushing to the theoretical ethernet limits.

It pushes POE limits and not networking limits. 1500 feet is the longest data run possible with Cat5e/6 cable.
Btw, there is nothing wrong with the gel filled cable. I've installed that stuff off and on for years. You just need to use a dry cloth towel to wipe if off. I use a microfiber wash cloth for that.
Also, I never had to use fiber for underground runs and never got a service call in 20 years on an underground run. Especially the ones that get by lightning all the time. In one installation, they switched to an underground run because the Ubiquity wireless would get knocked out by lightning from time to time.
Also I want to remind everyone Data Ethernet runs do not have a ground and the only ones that get knocked out are POE runs because of the brown pair being grounded to a power supply.

 

[Virga]

@tech_junkie thanks for making the distinction between ethernet and PoE as regards length limits.
If I could I would do this with copper cable because I have the basic know-how and tools to deal with it, and have a 50 amp power line at the far end (installed by the same electrician who left me 3/4" empty conduits because I likely did not specify the size of the requested conduits) which hopefully means grounding is correctly provided at both ends of the 50 amp power line.
Any excuse is good for getting into new stuff and tools (FO new for me) but at this point in life I need less of an ever-expanding portfolio of WIP projects and more closure.

 

[tech_junkie]

@tech_junkie thanks for making the distinction between ethernet and PoE as regards length limits.
If I could I would do this with copper cable because I have the know-how and tools to deal with it, and have a 50 amp power line at the far end (installed by the same electrician who left me 3/4" empty conduits because I likely did not specify the size of the requested conduits) which hopefully means grounding is correctly provided at both ends of the 50 amp power line.
Any excuse is good for getting into new stuff and tools (FO new for me) but at this point in life I need less of an ever-expanding portfolio of WIP projects and more closure.

Mains grounding should never be an issue because of how the Ethernet standard is implemented. However, I did do an installation similar to yours with an additional burial CAT5 wire in the conduit 450 feet that powered the switch because the welding equipment would interfere with the electrical power at the remote shed. The POE switch power pack was also plugged into an isolation transformer and then into an online UPS. That shop building has been hit by lightning several times since I installed that system and it never went down. Even when it was directly struck by lightning.