Looking for advice - NVR edition

[area651]

Hey guys. I've been around a while and (personally) I prefer to use BI on a computer. I have a friend that would like to get a system set up though and he doesn't have a ton of money or really, any tech expertise. Because of this, I'm inclined to look into a turnkey sort of NVR setup. Of course, I will stay away from wireless. Dahua is by far my favorite route but the NVR alone is likely to cost as much as a sub-brand (or rebranded) Amcrest system. Does anyone know of any budget friendly systems? I'm hoping for at least POE 4 cameras to start and the ability to expand to 8 cameras later would be ideal. Since this is going to be monitoring the driveway at night (that's the ultimate concern), night performance is at the higher end of the priority list. I've been doing this long enough to know not to chase the MP count and there's really no need to be able to see clear enough to tell if the perp is circumcised or not. (lol)

I know.....read the wiki and the cliff notes. I always tell people the same thing. Thing is, I'm not building from scratch and this is an area I'm not accustomed to. I'm hoping to find either a built package or advice of "get this NVR and these cameras" for a decent system on a budget. Obviously, when has anyone said the budget is no issue and I want crap quality? It's always "I don't have a lot of money but I want awesome quality". I'm willing to sacrifice quality but let's try to keep it at least somewhat acceptable. I'd like to know that this is a human at least and not just bigfoot. I don't need to be able to read the tattoo across his forehead or neck.

As for sensors, something that I've never quite understood is the sizing. I think "bigger sensor is better" for low light. So in that case, wouldn't a 1/2.9 be bigger than a 1/2.7 or a 1/2.1? ( I just made up the 2.1 measurement to make them further apart.)

Ideas:
Amcrest ProHD 2-Megapixel (1920 x 1080p) Network POE Security System w/ 8CH 4K NVR (1/2.9 sensor)
Amcrest 5MP Security Camera System, 4K 8CH PoE NVR, - (1/2.7 sensor)

 

[wittaj]

You are following for the fractions trick... 1/2.9" is smaller than 1/2.7" - the larger the bottom number, the smaller the sensor... So people read 4k on a 1/3 sensor and think that is large LOL...nope. what is bigger 1/1" or 1/2.9"...

It is simple LOL - do not buy a 4MP camera that is anything other than a 1/1.8" sensor. Do not buy a 2MP camera that is anything other than a 1/2.8" sensor. Most 4k are on the same sensor as a 2MP and thus the 2MP will kick its butt all night long as the 4k will need 4 times the light than the 2MP...this is even more critical with a PTZ that will be PTZing across a wide range of differing light conditions at night.

When I was looking at NVRs, once I realized that not all NVRs are created equal, and once I priced out a good one, it was cheaper to buy a refurbished computer than an NVR. You don't need to buy components and build one.

Many of these refurbished computers are business class computers that have come off lease. The one I bought I kid you not I could not tell that it was a refurbished unit - not a speck of dust or dents or scratches on it. It appeared to me like everything was replaced and I would assume just the motherboard with the intel processor is what was from the original unit. I went with the lowest end processor on the WIKI list as it was the cheapest and it runs my system fine. Could probably get going for $200 or so. A real NVR will cost more than that. Someone here recently picked up a 4th generation computer for $150 that is more than sufficient with the substreams option.

NVRs from the box units like a Amcrest and Lorex cap out incoming bandwidth (which impacts the resolution and FPS of the cameras). The Lorex and Amcrest NVR maxes out at 80Mbps and truly only one or a couple cameras that will display 4K. My neighbors was limited to that and he is all upset it isn't 4K for all eight channels and he was capped out at 4096 bitrate on each camera so it was a pixelated mess.

 

[area651]

You are following for the fractions trick... 1/2.9" is smaller than 1/2.7" - the larger the bottom number, the smaller the sensor... So people read 4k on a 1/3 sensor and think that is large LOL...nope. what is bigger 1/1" or 1/2.9"...

It is simple LOL - do not buy a 4MP camera that is anything other than a 1/1.8" sensor. Do not buy a 2MP camera that is anything other than a 1/2.8" sensor. Most 4k are on the same sensor as a 2MP and thus the 2MP will kick its butt all night long as the 4k will need 4 times the light than the 2MP...this is even more critical with a PTZ that will be PTZing across a wide range of differing light conditions at night.

When I was looking at NVRs, once I realized that not all NVRs are created equal, and once I priced out a good one, it was cheaper to buy a refurbished computer than an NVR. You don't need to buy components and build one.

Many of these refurbished computers are business class computers that have come off lease. The one I bought I kid you not I could not tell that it was a refurbished unit - not a speck of dust or dents or scratches on it. It appeared to me like everything was replaced and I would assume just the motherboard with the intel processor is what was from the original unit. I went with the lowest end processor on the WIKI list as it was the cheapest and it runs my system fine. Could probably get going for $200 or so. A real NVR will cost more than that. Someone here recently picked up a 4th generation computer for $150 that is more than sufficient with the substreams option.

NVRs from the box units like a Amcrest and Lorex cap out incoming bandwidth (which impacts the resolution and FPS of the cameras). The Lorex and Amcrest NVR maxes out at 80Mbps and truly only one or a couple cameras that will display 4K. My neighbors was limited to that and he is all upset it isn't 4K for all eight channels and he was capped out at 4096 bitrate on each camera so it was a pixelated mess.

Thanks for clarifying about the sensor sizing. You mention a 2MP on a 1/2.8 but I'm only seeing a 1/2.9. So by your explanation, the 2.9 is smaller than the 2.8? If that's the case, would the difference between the 2.9 I'm seeing and the 2.8 you suggest be that much?

As for the computer vs NVR, I completely agree with you. I always buy ones off corporate leases as they've always been perfect in the past. The problem I'm facing here is that this person I'm trying to help is not technical about computers at all. As in, he knows how to operate his iPhone. I would definitely go the computer route if I could but I need this to be forever simple. Never update FW, bios, OS. Never reboot. That's the idea anyway.

 

[wittaj]

Yep 1/2.9 will be smaller than 1/2.8. These sensors are so small (take apart an old camera and be shocked how tiny these sensors are), so the bigger the better.

You could set up your friends computer to never update Windows and set up the computer to automatically reboot if something went crazy and run BI as a service and never update BI and it will then be the same as an NVR lol.

Personally I have found NVR playback, etc. clunky and not user friendly and their apps even worse. Of course others think BI is clunky and prefer NVR.

I guess it depends on his end goal and how frequently he would want to access video.

 

[area651]

thanks all.

One last thing (I hope) is there seems to be a lot of "kits" that have the 4k (8MP) cameras. If I use one of those cameras but I drop the resolution down some, wouldn't that be like if it were a (4mp) camera and the camera would have better night quality? I'm thinking that at maybe a lower resolution then less light would be needed by the sensor if running at a lower resolution. Make sense? Or does that not sound right?

 

[sebastiantombs]

Dropping the resolution does not change the fact that the sensor in the camera still has twice as many pixels than a 4MP camera with that same sensor size. Only half the amount of light still reaches each pixel when you reduce the resolution. The only way to get good night performance with an 8MP camera is lots of light or spend big bucks, north of two grand, for one.

 

[area651]

Dropping the resolution does not change the fact that the sensor in the camera still has twice as many pixels than a 4MP camera with that same sensor size. Only half the amount of light stil reaches each pixel when you reduce the resolution. The only way to get good night performance with an 8MP camera is lots of light or spend big bucks, north of two grand, for one.

gotcha thanks!

 

[wittaj]

+1 on the resolution issue - Reducing the resolution from 8MP to something less does't reduce the pixels - the pixel count stays the same in the camera as that is a fixed "pixel screen", so the only thing you are reducing is the amount of storage space needed by dropping the resolution.

An analogy to try to understand why they need so much more light - let's look at a 4MP camera and this 4MP needs at least twice the amount of light as a 2MP at night for the same sensor. The sensor size is the same in each camera, but when you spread the "screen" of 4MP worth of pixel holes across the same sensor, it now has double the holes, but also double the "screen material" than the 2MP. Kind of hard to explain, but trying to use a window screen as an analogy - take a window where the opening is fixed - that is the sensor - you add a screen to it and looking out is a little darker because of the screen material. Now replace that screen with one that has double the holes and it will be darker looking through it because there is more screen material.

To make matters worse, the general public consumer is fascinated with more MP thinking it results in better imagery, so in many cases they throw in 4k cameras but then puts it on a 1/3" sensor to cut costs and thus suffers from poor quality at night. A 2MP on a 1/2.8" sensor will kick this 4k camera butt all night long. Some are putting it on a 1/1.8" sensor, but it still needs way more light than the equivalent 4MP on the same sensor.

My neighbor thought he was all fancy with his 4k cameras and it failed him during a door checking event. Meanwhile, my many years old 2MP camera provided the picture that the police were able to use to get all my neighbors stuff back!

My neighbor ended up replacing several of his 4k cameras with the make/models of my 2MP cameras....

 

[area651]

+1 on the resolution issue - Reducing the resolution from 8MP to something less does't reduce the pixels - the pixel count stays the same in the camera as that is a fixed "pixel screen", so the only thing you are reducing is the amount of storage space needed by dropping the resolution.

An analogy to try to understand why they need so much more light - let's look at a 4MP camera and this 4MP needs at least twice the amount of light as a 2MP at night for the same sensor. The sensor size is the same in each camera, but when you spread the "screen" of 4MP worth of pixel holes across the same sensor, it now has double the holes, but also double the "screen material" than the 2MP. Kind of hard to explain, but trying to use a window screen as an analogy - take a window where the opening is fixed - that is the sensor - you add a screen to it and looking out is a little darker because of the screen material. Now replace that screen with one that has double the holes and it will be darker looking through it because there is more screen material.

To make matters worse, the general public consumer is fascinated with more MP thinking it results in better imagery, so in many cases they throw in 4k cameras but then puts it on a 1/3" sensor to cut costs and thus suffers from poor quality at night. A 2MP on a 1/2.8" sensor will kick this 4k camera butt all night long. Some are putting it on a 1/1.8" sensor, but it still needs way more light than the equivalent 4MP on the same sensor.

My neighbor thought he was all fancy with his 4k cameras and it failed him during a door checking event. Meanwhile, my many years old 2MP camera provided the picture that the police were able to use to get all my neighbors stuff back!

My neighbor ended up replacing several of his 4k cameras with the make/models of my 2MP cameras....

I agree totally. Another thing that's really killing the public choice is the pricepoint. I looked on Amcrest (& Amazon) and see that a 5mp camera with a 1/2.7 sensor is running about $55. They don't even HAVE the 2MP versions available to purchase. I'm guessing to get that would mean you have to go to Dahua which is a LOT more expensive isn't it? It seems all of the manufacturers are only producing the 5MP and 8MP cameras any more.

 

[wittaj]

Yep, because the Arlos and Rings are 4k, so Amcrest needs to keep up or people won't purchase! I would love to pickup a cheap 2MP Amcrest for overview purposes at around $50!

 

[sebastiantombs]

As the old saying goes, ignorance is bliss. Resolution is all they think about until it's too late.