Looking for advice of Camera and Software

[saltwater]

...
One question though - if you all are using UDM Pro/SE (which has the facility for a HDD), why do you need a separate computer with Blue Iris on it as a separate device on the Ubiquiti network. Wouldn't you all have been able to do it on the UDM Pro/SE as its supposed to be an all-in-one device with NVR and networking functionality built-in? Or is to be able to use Blue Iris on Unifi cameras or to be able to use any camera brand being managed by Unifi Protect? Or are you all using UDM Pro/SE purely for networking functionality?
...

1. I'm not an expert, but outside of the Unify system, I don't think we have access to the harddrive in the UDM Pro. I think it's only there for the Unify Protect NVR. I haven't installed a harddrive in the UDMPro, no need, so that is why I am a little uncertain if it is generally accessible to the system. Even if we could generally access that harddrive (I'm sure someone will explain if we can) the next point cancels out using it anyway.

2. Blue Iris is a Windows program, and the advice is to run that on a separate dedicated computer. Second-hand computers are cheap, doesn't need to be the latest hardware. Also remove all other crap from the computer, which is de-bloat it (heaps of Youtube videos in relation to that).

3. Yes, I only use Unify for the networking side of things, and for my needs it does a good job. (This aspect can open wars like Windows v Mac v Linux or Blue Iris v NVR, you get the idea).

 

[agarwaldvk]

Hi Saltwater

Its understandable that Blue Iris is installed and run off a separate device and connected to the network on its dedicated VLAN - that is what I was intending to do anyway.

The UDM that you are referring to looks like the UDM router rather than the UDM Pro NVR, right. The one (the PRO - doesn't have POE ports, not the SE which does) that I was referring to was the NVR - this is a link for it.

UDM-Pro-AU - Ubiquiti UniFi Dream Machine Pro - All-in-one Home/Office Network Solution - USG, UniFi Controller, Protect Server, and Gigabit Switch

I now have a spare laptop which I intend to use to try out Blue Iris on (I am going to buy the full version) and buy the G3 flex Unifi camera and try to set it up. At this point, I don't have the VLAN's set up, so it would be connected to my main network but that can be done later.

From that point forward, someone might need to help me to set it up to access from outside of my network securely. That would be a big help!


Best regards


Deepak

 

[saltwater]

I don't think Ubiquiti cameras are ONVIF compliant and therefore unless you use the Protect system, you can't use Ubiquity cameras. If you are going the Blue Iris route, then you have many more camera options available, obviously not the G3.

 

[agarwaldvk]

Hey Saltwater

So if I want to go down your path with Ubiquiti gear for networking with a controller (can be Cloud key Gen 2 Plus) and 8 port POE managed switch with the dedicated BI computer with appropriately sized HDD (6 TB or thereabouts) for surveillance as a separate device attached to the network, will it work with non-ubiquiti cameras assuming that Cloud key Gen 2 Plus supports incoming VPN. I can again go down your path and use Wireguard?

Is that system going to work?

 

[saltwater]

Hey Saltwater

So if I want to go down your path with Ubiquiti gear for networking with a controller (can be Cloud key Gen 2 Plus) and 8 port POE managed switch with the dedicated BI computer with appropriately sized HDD (6 TB or thereabouts) for surveillance as a separate device attached to the network, will it work with non-ubiquiti cameras assuming that Cloud key Gen 2 Plus supports incoming VPN. I can again go down your path and use Wireguard?

Is that system going to work?

Forgetting the Cloud Key for a minute, yes it will work, as mentioned previously, that's how my system is setup.

Now getting back to the Cloud Key, I believe it's the same network operating system as powers the UDM series of modem/routers, so within there you could create an incoming VPN. I did a quick search attempting to find out for certain if it's the same software, but nothing stood out.

Did you check out the TP Link Omada series of network equipment?

 

[agarwaldvk]

Thanks for the quick response. Greatly appreciated.

To be honest, I did have a cursory look at the TP Link Omada but not in sufficient detail. I am not a networking guy per se and hence I don't want to stuff up too many things.

The reason I selected Cloud Key Gen2 Plus is because it costs around the same money as Gen2 and its seemingly way better and has a 1 TB HDD (which I don't really care about as I won't be using it for surveillance purposes anyway and its a 2.5 inch profile.

And, as you have indicated it does support the incoming VPN, I can then conveniently go down your path and setup Wireguard (now that you have got it working, I can possibly bounce things off you in case I end up in strife, hopefully not) unless you specifically want don't recommend Wireguard.

Given that, I think I might start to seriously consider buying the Blue Iris software, and 1 camera to test setting the system up for securely viewing the footage over the internet.

You really reckon, the Hikvision/Dahua cameras are ok from backdoor entry kind of perspective - just for the sake of comfort and nothing more? Some of these security camera companies believe that they are not good enough for ethical reasons than for the quality of camera per se.

 

[saltwater]

Others can chime in here, and I believe they will support my comment. I've purchased the bulk of my cameras, 12 Dahua type 5442 cameras, on separate occasions or transactions, from @EMPIRETECANDY, and not one problem. I've had follow-up chats (Whatsapp) and emails regarding certain issues or settings, again, not a problem. He used to ship from his AliExpress store to Australia, but for some reason he can't do that anymore. We can still purchase directly from him or via his Amazon account.

 

[agarwaldvk]

Hi Saltwater and others


What do you all think about Uniview cameras. From what I have read online, they look pretty good and appear to be similarly priced too, aren't they? Do let me know.

I am getting more and more inclined to go down your pathway (Unifi for networking including Cloud Key Gen2 Plus) and dedicated computer with Blue Iris connected on a dedicated VLAN as a device on the network and cameras from Hivision/Dahua and Uniview.

Trying to understand how to work with Windguard - currently no idea.

The laptop that I currently have as spare has the following specs :-

Dell - i7-7500U 2.7 - 2.9 GHz, 8 GB RAM - seemingly supports QuickSync


Best regards


Deepak

 

[saltwater]

I can't comment on Uniview cameras as I've never used them. I've done a cursory search and they are, or the one camera I checked, is ONVIF compliant, but I'd get that confirmed. See this site for specs of a Uniview camera. The camera I linked to has a sensor size of 1/2.8", this is the first spec you should be checking in a camera. The larger the sensor the better, so if you can chase 1/1.8" or better sensor size. Having said that, it's easy for me to spend your money, so yes, I know, a line must be drawn as regards budget.

I'm unsure about your laptop, but it should work, will work, but I recall you mentioning previously that your laptop will be a temporary solution, so in that regard that's ok. I'm not an expert, but I believe CPU's in laptops are the lower power cousins of CPU's in desktop computers.

 

[agarwaldvk]

I can't comment on Uniview cameras as I've never used them. I've done a cursory search and they are, or the one camera I checked, is ONVIF compliant, but I'd get that confirmed. See this site for specs of a Uniview camera. The camera I linked to has a sensor size of 1/2.8", this is the first spec you should be checking in a camera. The larger the sensor the better, so if you can chase 1/1.8" or better sensor size. Having said that, it's easy for me to spend your money, so yes, I know, a line must be drawn as regards budget.

I'm unsure about your laptop, but it should work, will work, but I recall you mentioning previously that your laptop will be a temporary solution, so in that regard that's ok. I'm not an expert, but I believe CPU's in laptops are the lower power cousins of CPU's in desktop computers.

The laptop is definitely a temporary solution for the purposes of testing only.

I did have a look at the general specs for Hikvision/Dahua camera (random between 2 and 5 MP normal fixed lens dome and turret cameras) and for the most part have lens of f1/2.7 and f1/2.8 as the standard. Motorized ones go down to 1.4 and thereabouts.

I was actually looking at how to set up Wireguard with the intent being to use the laptop (where the Blue Iris would be setup and footage would be stored for viewing) as the VPN Server and one of the other desktop PC's as my client - of course they are both currently going to be one same home network with no VLAN's set up yet. Is that the way to go about setting up Wireguard on both the server and the client PC's to securely view the footage over the internet or am I on the wrong tram here?

 

[saltwater]

I did have a look at the general specs for Hikvision/Dahua camera (random between 2 and 5 MP normal fixed lens dome and turret cameras) and for the most part have lens of f1/2.7 and f1/2.8 as the standard. Motorized ones go down to 1.4 and thereabouts.

Check the 5442 series of Dahua cameras, they have the 1/1.8" sensor and are 4 mp.

I was actually looking at how to set up Wireguard with the intent being to use the laptop (where the Blue Iris would be setup and footage would be stored for viewing) as the VPN Server and one of the other desktop PC's as my client - of course they are both currently going to be one same home network with no VLAN's set up yet. Is that the way to go about setting up Wireguard on both the server and the client PC's to securely view the footage over the internet or am I on the wrong tram here?

This is a topic worthy of a separate thread, and there are many. If you check the wiki out, you'll find good general information regarding VPN's, well everything. In short though for setting up a VPN when on a Ubiquity network, there are many ways to do it, but I'll highlight one, which I think is the simplest to setup. I won't go into all the details, but you'll get the gist of it, that if you go the Ubiquity route, you'll be able to set it up. This relates to the client being a mobile phone.

1. Create a teleport VPN (I'm told that is in fact based on Wireguard), enter/send an email to the person that needs access (yourself, wife etc.)
2. On your phone install the 'WiFiman' app.
3. I can't precisely remember the procedure, but on receipt of the email, within the WiFiman app, under the tab, 'Teleport' a connection is created.
4. Everytime you want to view your CCTV (or anything, NAS etc.) system you must first go to the WiFiman app, turn on the Teleport connection. Then go to your Blue Iris mobile app and check your alerts or watch live feeds.
5. Remember, while the VPN is active, all your internet is going via your home Ubiquity system, so when finished browsing your Blue Iris system, turn off the VPN.

As I mentioned, the above is only in relation to mobile phone use, but other clients can be used, and other VPN types can be used.

 

[Jim I.]

Check the 5442 series of Dahua cameras, they have the 1/1.8" sensor and are 4 mp.



This is a topic worthy of a separate thread, and there are many. If you check the wiki out, you'll find good general information regarding VPN's, well everything. In short though for setting up a VPN when on a Ubiquity network, there are many ways to do it, but I'll highlight one, which I think is the simplest to setup. I won't go into all the details, but you'll get the gist of it, that if you go the Ubiquity route, you'll be able to set it up. This relates to the client being a mobile phone.

1. Create a teleport VPN (I'm told that is in fact based on Wireguard), enter/send an email to the person that needs access (yourself, wife etc.)
2. On your phone install the 'WiFiman' app.
3. I can't precisely remember the procedure, but on receipt of the email, within the WiFiman app, under the tab, 'Teleport' a connection is created.
4. Everytime you want to view your CCTV (or anything, NAS etc.) system you must first go to the WiFiman app, turn on the Teleport connection. Then go to your Blue Iris mobile app and check your alerts or watch live feeds.
5. Remember, while the VPN is active, all your internet is going via your home Ubiquity system, so when finished browsing your Blue Iris system, turn off the VPN.

As I mention the above is only in relation to mobile phone use, but other clients can be used, and other VPN types can be used.

Yes, that's how I access my Unify network on my iPhone when away. Install the Wifiman app first, then click on the Teleport icon to start the VPN, which is based on Wireguard. There are plenty of tutorials on YouTube which goes into detail.

 

[agarwaldvk]

Guys


Thank you so much for all your help and guidance so far. I am obviously a long way off given that I haven't even got my VLAN's set up yet, no Cloud key as yet either and the rest of it as well. However, I will give it a go to try and set up this VPN stuff.

Out of interest, when trying to access the server, does the server need to have the public key of of every client device or the public key must be made available to each client device that we use to access the server. In other words, I am trying to ask if we are say at someone else's place and use their device, be their computer or tablet or something, then the public key would need to be made available to that device, right? Have I got this right?

 

[saltwater]

Guys


Thank you so much for all your help and guidance so far. I am obviously a long way off given that I haven't even got my VLAN's set up yet, no Cloud key as yet either and the rest of it as well. However, I will give it a go to try and set up this VPN stuff.

Out of interest, when trying to access the server, does the server need to have the public key of of every client device or the public key must be made available to each client device that we use to access the server. In other words, I am trying to ask if we are say at someone else's place and use their device, be their computer or tablet or something, then the public key would need to be made available to that device, right? Have I got this right?

Here's an article, that I haven't read in a while, but should have all the info regarding VPN setup.

I am not precisely sure how it all works, hence my reference to the above VPN article. In Ubiquity's case, it records that I created a Teleport VPN and invited myself (my email address) to activate the client device, in my case a mobile phone. At the server I can easily revoke client access. There's obviously more to it than that but that is the general gist of how it works.

 

[agarwaldvk]

Hi

Sorry for the delayed response as I got caught up at work.

I have been doing some research on the cameras that I am considering based on the suggestions provided by some of you.

Looked at Dahua, Bosch and Uniview cameras.

Most of the cameras from Bosch between 2 and 5 MP that I looked (which include Flexidome 3000i & 3000ir, bullet diniion 3000i, 6000i and 7000i) all have sensors around 1/2.7, 1/2.8, 1/2.9 and 1/3 inches - there are some with 1/1.8 as well. And all of these cameras are very expensive and apparently very good. I also looked at some of the similar Dahua cameras as well and, for a large part, have sensors in the vicinity of 1/2.7 and 1/2.8 with some going down to 1/1.8 inches - such as some of the 5442's variants with vari-focal lenses which cost a lot of money, around AUD400+.

I am presuming here that that whilst hardware does have a serious impact on the final image, the software seemingly also play a significant role is defining how good a picture you eventually get out of the camera, would that be right to say? Probably that is why the Bosch cameras are so so expensive!!!!!!!!

I then looked at some of uniview 2 and 5 MP camera (motorized vari-focal with focal length between 2.8 and 13mm). I noticed that they also mostly have sensors in the vicinity of 1/2.7 & 1/2.8 inches & they are, whilst not cheap, not awfully expensive either - ranging between AUD200 and AUD300. Some of the examples are here :-
1. Uniview 5MP Turret Camera Motorised, IPC3635SB-ADZK - @AUD250
2. Uniview Turret Camera 5MP HD Intelligent LightHunter, IPC3615SBADF28KM - @AUD121
3. Uniview 8MP Eyeball Dome Varifocal Camera, IPC3638SB-ADZKI0 - @AUD300

Any pointers/suggestions - I am a trifle confused or am I on the wrong tram entirely?

Just wondering if any of these are worth considering.

I am getting someone to look at my network side of things fixed up first (Unifi setup with Unifi Dream Router (not machine) including VLAN's setup. Ten I will look at the 8 port Unifi POE (150W) switch- (I don't think 60W switch will do as apparently it only has 4 POE ports (auto sensing) and the other 4 are non POE. Finally, will get to the cameras - so I still have some time at hand on that one.

Best regards

Deepak

 

[wittaj]

5MP and 8MP on 1/2.8" sensors will be poor at night.

Bosch is expensive because they are NDAA compliant.

Have you reached out to @EMPIRETECANDY for pricing and availability of Dahua OEM?


Any 4K camera on smaller than a 1/1.2" sensor will be horrible for night vision.

Almost any camera can do well in the daytime with enough light, even cameras that are 8MP put on a sensor designed for 2MP. But keep in mind that usually the processor and other stuff are still designed around 2MP, so the camera struggles trying to keep up with 8MP worth of data.

So buying an 8MP camera on the same sensor as the 2MP processor means that the processor is potentially working 4 times as hard for the 8MP camera. The camera you are looking at was designed for 2MP, so when they pop an 8MP lens on it, the processor is still the same and has to work harder. In some situations that is problematic.

Here is a real world example with a deer. Even with a floodlight, there simply wasn't enough light to make the 4MP on the sensor designed for 2MP to go into color. Imagine how much darker trying to squeeze 8MP on it will be and without a floodlight, forget about it.

And a 4MP on the proper 1/1.8" sensor camera (different deer LOL but same field of view when the camera was replaced to a better camera) that the camera was able to go to color based on the larger sensor:

Which do you think is the better image? The same thing applies whether it is a 4MP versus 8MP on the sensor sized for 2MP.

 

[agarwaldvk]

5MP and 8MP on 1/2.8" sensors will be poor at night.

Bosch is expensive because they are NDAA compliant.

Have you reached out to @EMPIRETECANDY for pricing and availability of Dahua OEM?


Any 4K camera on smaller than a 1/1.2" sensor will be horrible for night vision.

Almost any camera can do well in the daytime with enough light, even cameras that are 8MP put on a sensor designed for 2MP. But keep in mind that usually the processor and other stuff are still designed around 2MP, so the camera struggles trying to keep up with 8MP worth of data.

So buying an 8MP camera on the same sensor as the 2MP processor means that the processor is potentially working 4 times as hard for the 8MP camera. The camera you are looking at was designed for 2MP, so when they pop an 8MP lens on it, the processor is still the same and has to work harder. In some situations that is problematic.

Here is a real world example with a deer. Even with a floodlight, there simply wasn't enough light to make the 4MP on the sensor designed for 2MP to go into color. Imagine how much darker trying to squeeze 8MP on it will be and without a floodlight, forget about it.

And a 4MP on the proper 1/1.8" sensor camera (different deer LOL but same field of view when the camera was replaced to a better camera) that the camera was able to go to color based on the larger sensor:

Which do you think is the better image? The same thing applies whether it is a 4MP versus 8MP on the sensor sized for 2MP.

Hi Wittaj


Thanks for the response. I am not even trying to get an 8 MP camera. 5MP (2k) would be about as high as I would go.

I do like the second image - pretty good, eh! But's from a 8MP camera on a 1/1.8" sensor, right?

Not that I am advocating Uniview - just from what I have read, looks like a fair proportion of their cameras are NDAA compliant but nonetheless.

So, you reckon, a 5MP camera on 1/2.7 (or 1/2.8) sensor with starlight/lighthunter (their equivalent of low light facility) is no good for night time imaging, is it ? Neither of first 2 that I have listed?


Best regards


Deepak

 

[wittaj]

The number 3 camera you listed was 8MP?

The 2nd picture of the deer is the Dahua 5442 camera that is 4MP on the 1/1.8" sensor. The first picture was 4MP on the 1/2.8" sensor, so 5MP would be even darker.

Yes Uniview is NDAA compliant as well, and you are paying for that.

There is no 5MP camera on the market on the ideal MP/sensor ratio. 5MP outside will perform poorly. It is on the same sensor as a 2MP and the 2MP version will kick its butt all night long.




Starlight is a meaningless marketing phrase. The words Accusense, ColorVu, LightHunter, Dark Fighter, Starlight, etc. are simply marketing hooks and do not represent a specific technology advancement or feature....it is simply a marketing term used to supposedly sell the consumer on the ability to have good night vision. The actual sensors and capabilities of the camera is more important. Plenty of "starlight" cameras are on less than ideal MP/sensor ratios.

To prove how meaningless Starlight is, this is an example from Reolink's marketing videos of their Starlight camera - do you see a person in this picture...yes, there is a person in this picture. This is why you cannot buy a system based on marketing terms like Starlight.... Could this provide anything useful for the police? Would this protect your home? The still picture looks great though except for the person and the blur of the vehicle... Will give you a hint - the person is in between the two columns:

Bad Boys
Bad Boys
Watcha gonna do
Watcha gonna do
When the camera can't see you

 

[agarwaldvk]

The number 3 camera you listed was 8MP?

The 2nd picture of the deer is the Dahua 5442 camera that is 4MP on the 1/1.8" sensor. The first picture was 4MP on the 1/2.8" sensor, so 5MP would be even darker.

Yes Uniview is NDAA compliant as well, and you are paying for that.

There is no 5MP camera on the market on the ideal MP/sensor ratio. 5MP outside will perform poorly. It is on the same sensor as a 2MP and the 2MP version will kick its butt all night long.

View attachment 169290


Starlight is a meaningless marketing phrase. The words Accusense, ColorVu, LightHunter, Dark Fighter, Starlight, etc. are simply marketing hooks and do not represent a specific technology advancement or feature....it is simply a marketing term used to supposedly sell the consumer on the ability to have good night vision. The actual sensors and capabilities of the camera is more important. Plenty of "starlight" cameras are on less than ideal MP/sensor ratios.

To prove how meaningless Starlight is, this is an example from Reolink's marketing videos of their Starlight camera - do you see a person in this picture...yes, there is a person in this picture. This is why you cannot buy a system based on marketing terms like Starlight.... Could this provide anything useful for the police? Would this protect your home? The still picture looks great though except for the person and the blur of the vehicle... Will give you a hint - the person is in between the two columns:

Bad Boys
Bad Boys
Watcha gonna do
Watcha gonna do
When the camera can't see you

Hi Wittaag


Thanks again for your response. Greatly appreciated. Fully understand where you coming from.

That the sensor size is more governing parameter for determining the clarity of image in a low light setting, for example at night with little or no external lighting. No issues there.

However, wouldn't that be largely compensated by making available IR facility in the camera - the reason being, from what I understand, the camera can see the IR light as daylight which the human eye can't, right? For my own comfort, I did check the illumination requirement for the camera to take image with IR on the product datasheet of a few cameras brands including Dahua, Bosch, Hikvision and Uniview and they all specified near zero (0) lux illumination requirement. So, I am just as confused (or lost for want of a better word) now as I was then.

This is from one of Uniview IR camersa


This is from Bosch Dinion 6000IR


This is from Dahua Lite series camera - the min illumination must be with IR (uses smart IR)


This is from Hikvision (uses white light)


What am I not seeing that is staring you all in the eye?

Please don't get me wrong. I am not trying to question anything - I just want to understand and know what I should be buying and why so that it serves the intended purpose adequately well.


Best regards


Deepak

 

[saltwater]

Just adding to the sensor size part of the discussion: I know the below two camera angles are not the same view, but the camera pointing to my meter box and gas meter is an 8 mp on a 1/2.7" (or thereabouts) and the porch camera is 4 mp on a 1/1.8". You can clearly see all the noise in the 8 mp camera and a clearer image in the 4 mp porch camera. Both cameras are using IR and no purpose external lighting used. I can't comment on the lux numbers of camera models but I can generally accept that larger sensors with 4 mp is a damn good night-time camera.





For the rest of the world, yes, here in Australia we are already into our night-time, you guys are just waking up.