Motion detection in general

[Deali]

Superb knowledge here, a great forum! eaceful:

I have a question about motion detection. I am searching around for a good NVR which will fullfil my needs.
Currently i own a chinese made system from camera2000, which is using an own protocol to talk to the cameras which is called i9
That system is total unreliable in regards of motion detection. Sometimes it pick´s up motion but there is no motion, sometimes there is motion but it is not recognised.:sad2:
Anyhow, i want to get rid of it so i am searching. I tried QNAP, it uses the cameras. So do LevelOne. I read through the treads for Hikvision and it looks also like the cameras ar doing the motion detection.
So on the NVR the grid has 500 to 500 boxes, but on the camera the motion detection grid is 4x4 so 16 boxes or even less. How does that match up with the NVR? See the pictures
Are there NVR´s which are doing motion detection without the cameras? I had an Eneo system as cttv which has done an excellent job on that.

Has anyone answers on that?

Regards

Deali

 

[SSNapier]

A bit of background before I answer. Motion detection in these types of cameras works by analyzing the pixels in each frame for changes. There is a percentage of each zone that has to change (usually around 20-30%) in order for the device to consider triggering a motion event. This answer is a total guess (although an educated one) since I do not know the specific hardware you are dealing with, so bear that in mind.

There is a very good chance that these are separate processes. The camera most likely has the ability to process motion events by itself, but the NVR also has to have that ability because it can accept multiple types of cameras. I would assume that the camera is a bit weak on processor power so they made the motion zones big to allow for very clear pixel variation which reduces the load on the processor. If it were me, I would turn off the camera based motion and let the NVR do the heavy lifting, it will probably make for smoother video since the camera does not have to worry about motion analysis.

 

[Deali]

If i switch it of at the camera motion detecton will not work at all. I think this is the same on QNAP, LevelOne and for Hikvision also.
Can someone confirm for Hikvision?

 

[SSNapier]

If you turn it off at the camera but turn it on at the NVR it should work, but you have just put the processing requirement on the NVR and not the camera. This is a very easy thing to test.

 

[alastairstevenson]

If i switch it of at the camera motion detecton will not work at all. I think this is the same on QNAP, LevelOne and for Hikvision also.
Can someone confirm for Hikvision?

Well, yes, the camera is doing the motion detection / other video analytics. Switch it off and it's no longer active.

If you turn it off at the camera but turn it on at the NVR it should work,

Nope.

If it were me, I would turn off the camera based motion and let the NVR do the heavy lifting

I'm sorry - but for your average dedicated NVR, that is not correct. And I'm excluding software solutions such as BI, and a specific heavy option in Synology Surveillance Station in that statement. QNAP Surveillance Station does no real-time analytics. The NAS boxes don't have the processing capability to handle that even if you wanted to.
The camera does the analytics - the NVR reacts to the events it's told about. That's typically how it works. Cameras have quite a lot of processing power - but especially they have a purpose-built, very fast DSP (digital signal processor) to handle the video encoding and analytics.
It's just not scalable to do all that work in the NVR. The days of cameras just putting out an analogue video signal are well past.

 

[SSNapier]

That is fine, and you may very well be correct but as I said it is an easy enough thing to test.

 

[alastairstevenson]

but on the camera the motion detection grid is 4x4 so 16 boxes or even less

Where do you get the 4x4?
Hikvision 3335 sample:

 

[alastairstevenson]

That is fine, and you may very well be correct but as I said it is an easy enough thing to test.

Tested.

 

[SSNapier]

Tested.

Excellent! Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Deali]

ok, the Hikvision 3335 has a mutch finer grid. From my cameras you can see it in the second picture, max 4x4 which gives 16 blocks. They build the cameras to match the NVR but they have done a bad job.
Thats why i am looking for a new solution, but i really dont know what to buy.

I found an other thread dealing with this issue:

https://www.ipcamtalk.com/showthread.php/844-Who-is-doing-motion-detection-the-camera-or-the-NVR

Thank for your help.

 

[alastairstevenson]

There is a very good chance that these are separate processes. The camera most likely has the ability to process motion events by itself, but the NVR also has to have that ability because it can accept multiple types of cameras. I would assume that the camera is a bit weak on processor power so they made the motion zones big to allow for very clear pixel variation which reduces the load on the processor. If it were me, I would turn off the camera based motion and let the NVR do the heavy lifting, it will probably make for smoother video since the camera does not have to worry about motion analysis.

With apologies, but for the benefit of others I do feel that sometimes it is needed to challenge and correct inaccurate statements, as people tend to believe what is written on the internet.
An absolutely key driver underpinning the rapid progress of IP cameras has been the availability of high-performance SoCs (System on a Chip) that not only have fast 32-bit CPU cores but a dedicated DSP that's designed to process the video encoding and analysis tasks. Each new interation pushes the boundaries out further.
The CPU is almost just the supervisor and the interface to the outside world.
In some ways there are parallels with traditional CPUs and GPUs in the gaming arena.

 

[alastairstevenson]

They build the cameras to match the NVR but they have done a bad job.

What cameras do you have?
I've quite a bunch of non-Hikvision cameras, and motion detection grids are all pretty fine gridded.

I found an other thread dealing with this issue:
https://www.ipcamtalk.com/showthread...era-or-the-NVR

Yes, and I think this quote from it is a good summary:

Cameras do everything. They are basically ARM linux boxes. Your NVR just acts as a NAS box with a fancy client GUI. There's no reason to measure processing load which is why NVR's are just measured in how much data can be processed from the cameras i.e. 8 channel box that can do 1080p@30fps up to 50Mbps total. CPU power is pretty meaninless.

The NVR is just a GUI to display the live view client and to show the camera settings. Enabling/disabling motion detection on NVR just turns it on/off on the camera. NVR does nothing.

Email, NTP, or any network service is forwarded/diverted to the NVR because the devices are behind a non-public facing network when connected to an NVR appliance. That is a security feature.

 

[Deali]

The NVR is just a GUI to display the live view client and to show the camera settings. Enabling/disabling motion detection on NVR just turns it on/off on the camera. NVR does nothing.

I still wondering about statements like this (Levelone NVR-0104 manual):

Key Features
- Supports 1080p HDMI local display
- Compression: H.264/MPEG-4 Part 2/MJPEG
- Resolution: Full HD/megapixel/FD1/CIF/QCIF

So it makes the impression the the NVR ist doing the Compression. Then this is pure marketing.

 

[alastairstevenson]

So it makes the impression the the NVR ist doing the Compression. Then this is pure marketing.

I can see what you mean.
However, in reality it means that the NVR will handle (as in accept, buffer, write to storage as required, and display) video streams that have been encoded / compressed in H.264 and MJPEG format. H.264 uses MPEG-4 Part 2 for compression.
If the NVR was doing any analysis of the video, for motion detection, face recognition, number plate recognition etc etc then for sure they would list that in the features.

 

[Deali]

ok, i just found one NVR which is doing motion detection on its own. I bought it used for about 45$, it is a chinese model which is called NVR6104.
Unfortunatly it has no web-server, so i cant log into it.
But i have tested it with two different cameras without motion detection and is working perfectly.




Just to let you know

 

[alastairstevenson]

Interesting. That's the Amovision NVR? You got a good price for it.
I have several Amovision 720p cameras - they were quite good in their time.

 

[Del Boy]

Interesting. That's the Amovision NVR? You got a good price for it.
I have several Amovision 720p cameras - they were quite good in their time.

You're kidding, they were my first foray into IP cameras and CCTV. Still better than analog rubbish but since been replaced, I really should donate it to someone I know because it's still ok for a lot of people.

 

[Deali]

That's the Amovision NVR?

I dont know. There is no manual, no CD with it. In and outside the box no information.
It is a box with good technical data:

 Embedded Linux System
 H.264 Main Profile @level 3 Compression
 4 CH 1080P/ 960P / 720P Recording simultaneously
 4 CH 1080P/ 960P/ 720P Playback simultaneously
 Supports Motion detection
 Supports 2pcs HDD
 Support P2P
 Support iPhone/Android

I am missing an web-server, so i can log in from my PC.

But maybe Del Boy can forward me the manual or better the content of the CD he might have?

 

[alastairstevenson]

If it is Amovision - then their website download links have never worked properly.
You might be very lucky and if you ask them they might email you a copy of the user manual. I had firmware from them over email in the past.
Why do you think there is no webserver?

A possible contact is here, he was very helpful:

Davis Lee
Director
Mobile:+86 180 8888 3120 Email:davislee@amovision.com
SKYPE: davis8801
Factory Address：3/F, South R&D Building, Dacheng Industrial Park, Jihua Road, Longgang District, Shenzhen City, China

Oh, and by the way, Amovision is a Hikvision OEM now.

 

[Deali]

Why do you think there is no webserver?

If i open the ip-adress in Firefox i only get "hd client" in the tab-discription.
rlogin gives a prompt and then times out.

Do you have a suggestion what else i can try?

I send email to Davis, lets see if he answers.