Need some Godly help identifying a couple of good cameras for a simple 24/7 NVR setup for license plate identification

bigcheez

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I live in the glorious city of Gary, IN, once the murder capital of the USA! It's really not that bad, at least the part I am in, which is a beach town called Miller, somewhat separated from Gary, but still part of the city. We have a pretty diverse population that ranges from homeless and section 8 housing, up to multimillion dollar lakefront properties.

About 6 weeks ago, my church on our main drive into Miller had it's front door/window shot out overnight, and after investigation it appears there was some kind of altercation as about 15 bullet holes from two separate guns were discovered across the façade of the Church and our neighboring property (an insurance salesman). Needless to say it has shaken our small congregation a bit. We now have armed congregants guarding the doors during service (myself included), and have lost a couple of members afraid of something happening.

Yesterday, my pastor was mowing the front lawn, and a couple of kids driving by shot a co2 pellet gun at him, striking him once in the arm. Broad daylight, early afternoon, right on our main street in the middle of Miller. I wish I could say this is an isolated incident, but as summer ramps up, the rif-raf comes out around here, particularly with NWI crowds and Chicagoans partying at the beach along Lake Michigan. Now, we are planning to hold service in the basement until we have addressed the security concerns.

We have already ordered a 10x Swann NVR camera system that I'll be helping to install once it arrives to monitor the exterior views and interior of the church. I do not expect the cameras to necessarily deter the recent vandalism/incident or shenanigans going on, but I do want to be able to provide our understaffed and strained police force with effective evidence when something does happen. We are also working with our neighboring property (the insurance guy), who would let us run some ethernet and post a couple of cameras on his property if needed to grab license plate views.

I am not trying to set up an automated LPR logging system, or 'monitor'/'log' the street traffic. First of all, about 25% of the cars here have 'temp' tags that they trade out with their buddies at the cash-n-go used car dealers around here, and the ones usually causing problems have them in the window or barely visible. I want to be able to go back a week or two if needed and pull footage from a time period should an incident occur involving a vehicle passing along our main drag. I also plan to engage the police department directly to let them know we have this capability, should something happen, and they could benefit from the footage.

I have attached a google map image with some quick line art showing the property, Swann camera plans, and (in yellow), of where I would like to put a couple of tight angle lens cameras to record car traffic 24/7.

I need help finding a good telephoto NVR system, or parts (cameras and a dedicated generic NVR recording unit) that would help us monitor the street traffic (in Yellow). Please let me know what ideas and recommendations you have from your experience.

(fyi, highly experience IT guy, networking, cable running, programming, video, etc, so MacGyver like hackery is an option)

church.JPG
 

wittaj

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You need optical zoom, digital zoom only works in the movies and TV...

Regarding a camera for LPR - keep in mind that this is a camera dedicated to plates and not an overview camera also. You will need two cameras. For LPR we need to zoom in tight to make the plate as large as possible. For most of us, all you see is the not much more than a vehicle in the entire frame. Now maybe in the right location during the day it might be able to see some other things, but not at night.

At night, we have to run a very fast shutter speed (1/2,000) and in B/W with IR and the image will be black. All you will see are head/tail lights and the plate. Some people can get away with color if they have enough street lights, but most of us cannot. Here is a representative sample of plates I get at night of vehicles traveling about 45MPH:


1607010182386.png



This is the camera for LPR that most of us use:

https://www.amazon.com/Loryta-IPC-HFW5241E-Z12E-Starlight-Network-English/dp/B07RJQT9NB/ref=sr_1_19?dchild=1&m=A329YQ83EBQGJF&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&qid=1620937594&redirect=true&s=merchant-items&sr=1-19

This is the camera that you might be able to get by with IF the distances are within 40 feet:

https://www.amazon.com/EmpireTech-IPC-T5442T-ZE-Vari-Focal-Eyeball-Starlight/dp/B08C77TNY9/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&m=A329YQ83EBQGJF&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&qid=1620937544&redirect=true&s=merchant-items&sr=1-1

And this is the camera you would need for up to 65 feet:

https://www.amazon.com/Loryta-IPC-B5442E-Z4E-Starlight-8mm-32mm-Motorized/dp/B07ZGF9BRW/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=z4e&m=A329YQ83EBQGJF&qid=1621896045&s=merchant-items&sr=1-1

And these cameras are varifocals which mean you optically zoom in tight to get the plates. But these are a set it and forget it. These cameras are not intended to manually zoom in and out all the time. That would be a PTZ.


I'd recommend you consider a Blue Iris/computer combo as an NVR. Keep in mind an NVR is a stripped down computer after all....and isn't true plug-n-play like people believe. You still have to dial the cameras into your setting. Once you do that, might as well go with something that has the best chance of working with many different camera brands. And I have found Blue Iris to be more robust and easier than an NVR. As always, YMMV...

When I was looking at replacing an existing NVR, once I realized that not all NVRs are created equal, and once I priced out a good one, it was cheaper to buy a refurbished computer than an NVR. You don't need to buy components and build one, and your computer may be sufficient.

Many of these refurbished computers are business class computers that have come off lease. The one I bought I kid you not I could not tell that it was a refurbished unit - not a speck of dust or dents or scratches on it. It appeared to me like everything was replaced and I would assume just the motherboard with the intel processor is what was from the original unit. I went with the lowest end processor on the WIKI list as it was the cheapest and it runs my system fine. Could probably get going for $200 or so. A real NVR will cost more than that.

A member here just last month found a refurbished 4th generation for less than $150USD that came with Win10 PRO, 16GB RAM, and a 1TB drive. Blue Iris has a demo, so try it out on an existing computer and see if you like it.

As I said, keep in mind that NVRs from the box units like an Amcrest and Lorex cap out incoming bandwidth (which impacts the resolution and FPS of the cameras). The Lorex and Amcrest NVR maxes out at 80Mbps and truly only one or a couple cameras that will display 4K. And I mentioned my neighbor's was limited to that and he is all upset it isn't 4K for all eight channels and he was capped out at 4096 bitrate on each camera so it was a pixelated mess.

There is a big Blue Iris or NVR debate here LOL. Some people love Blue Iris and think NVRs are clunky and hard to use and others think Blue Iris is clunky and hard to use. I have done both and prefer Blue Iris. As with everything YMMV...

Blue Iris has a demo, so install it on a computer and give it a try. I think you will find it easier than the Swann NVR system you are getting...

And you can disable Windows updates and set up the computer to automatically restart in a power failure. These also tend to be more secure as antivirus software is updated way more frequently than NVR firmware.
 
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wittaj

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Keep in mind the expected performance of the cameras. To identify someone with the 2.8mm lens that is popular in kit systems, someone would have to be within 13 feet of the camera, but realistically within 10 feet after you dial it in to your settings.

1604638118196.png



My neighbor was bragging to me how he only needed his 4 2.8mm fixed lens cams to see his entire property and the street and his whole backyard. His car was sitting in the driveway practically touching the garage door and his video quality was useless to ID the perp not even 10 feet away.

Here are my general distance recommendations, but switch out the Dahua 5442 series camera to the equivalent 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor or equivalent Hikvision works as well.
  • 5442 fixed lens 2.8mm - anything within 10 feet of camera OR as an overview camera
  • 5442 ZE - varifocal - distances up to 40-50 feet (personally I wouldn't go past the 30 foot range but I like things closer)
  • 5442 Z4E - anything up to 80-100 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 60 feet but I like things closer)
  • 5241-Z12E - anything from 80 feet to almost 200 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 150 feet because I like things closer)
  • 5241-Z12E - for a license plate cam that you would angle up the street to get plates up to about 175 feet away, or up to 220 with additional IR.
  • 49225 PTZ - great PTZ and in conjunction with an NVR or Blue Iris and the cameras above that you can use as spotter cams to point the PTZ to the correct location to compliment the fixed cams.
You need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who.

Main keys are you can't locate the camera too high (not on the 2nd story or above 7 feet high unless it is for overview and not Identification purposes) or chase MP and you need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who. Also, do not chase marketing phrases like ColorVu and Full Color and the like - all cameras need light - simple physics...

Your Swann system may or may not meet your needs to IDENTIFY, but you can OBSERVE. To ID someone on the public sidewalk the SWANN cams probably will not do it.
 

bigcheez

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We are blessed that the whole main street was recently redone on state and federal grants, beautiful new street lights and everything. The Swann system will be a good start, so we at least 'know' what happened when something does happen, and can identify car type/color/damage (they all have damage lol). Our biggest concern regarding the recent incidents are if the church was being targeted or if it was just some kids goofing off (yes, our kids around goof off by shooting guns randomly). Frankly, if the damage isn't serious, or someone is not hurt, the local police do not have the resources to investigate and pursue a suspect, and that is part of the problem.

wittaj I really appreciate the input, and the recommendations so far. I have a question regarding the recommendations above, those cameras appear to be traditional BNC/analog video signals vs a POE camera. It seems there is a real vacuum in the industry regarding IP POE cams with 13-60mm lenses. Is this an accurate observation? I would benefit greatly from a simple cat5e POE camera that has the reach that those cameras have.

I have not heard of Blue Iris before, but I do have quite a few old pc's lying around and could wake one up or source one. I would prefer that over an NVR box for sure. What kind of card interface is suggested when using those 2mp cameras?
 

bigcheez

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Scratch that, I didn't look closely enough at the specs on the camera, it has the POE port, as well as the analog/power option. Very cool.
 

mat200

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.. I have a question regarding the recommendations above, those cameras appear to be traditional BNC/analog video signals vs a POE camera...
Welcome @bigcheez

The Dahua 5442 series are IP PoE cameras
 

wittaj

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Yep, POE all the way LOL.

If you have an old 4th generation intel computer floating around that is more than sufficient to run Blue Iris.

You can test it on a laptop, but laptops are horrible to run BI as they are not designed for 24/7 operation.

In most instances you will be able to pull the Swann NVR camera feeds directly into Blue Iris. After you try to watch some video from the Swann and Blue Iris, you will migrate away from the Swann quickly LOL.

Many of us run it that way. Redundant backup. I am doing that, but haven't opened the NVR interface in years because Blue Iris is so much nicer and quicker.

We had someone come in here and took out my neighbors mailbox. It took him hours scrubbing video to find when it happened and he could really only say what day and time. In less than a few minutes I had found it on my system.

I can literally scrub through my camera video in the middle of the night in under 30 seconds with Blue Iris. It takes that long just logging into the NVR LOL.
 

bigcheez

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Yeah, re Swann, I debated suggesting something more, but the reality is that the pastor, and others need to be able to use it. I just wanted something simple that they could quickly order, get installed and get the app on their phone and look in when they need to.

Now for the license plate stuff, that is kinda my project as a bonus.

Would the Swann cams work with Blue iris?
 

wittaj

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Yes, in Blue Iris you simply "add camera" and you put in the IP address of the NVR. Hit the find/inspect button and then further down on the screen is Camera Number and then you select 1. Then you just copy that camera and change the 1 to a 2 and repeat of the number of cameras you have. You can bring in analog and POE systems this way.

With that said, some NVRs are quirky and do not come in, but most do, but that is how it would happen.

So it is the best of both worlds - give the non-techy the NVR, but feed the cameras in Blue Iris so that if you are scrubbing video you can do it quickly!
 

bigcheez

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Yes, in Blue Iris you simply "add camera" and you put in the IP address of the NVR. Hit the find/inspect button and then further down on the screen is Camera Number and then you select 1. Then you just copy that camera and change the 1 to a 2 and repeat of the number of cameras you have. You can bring in analog and POE systems this way.

With that said, some NVRs are quirky and do not come in, but most do, but that is how it would happen.

So it is the best of both worlds - give the non-techy the NVR, but feed the cameras in Blue Iris so that if you are scrubbing video you can do it quickly!
So the camera stream can go BOTH to the swann NVR and Blue iris simultaneously?

I wasn't sure how that worked with these systems, but I guess they have ip cam's up all over the world with thousands of people watching them.
 

wittaj

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Yes that is correct. Instead of streaming to a mobile device it is streaming to a computer with Blue Iris.
 

mat200

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FYI - older Swann products were Hikvision and worked well with standards like rtsp. Swann has another OEM now, so far I am uncertain how well the newer OEM supports ONVIF and rtsp on their product line. ( if you know please feel free to chime in )
 

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I highly suggest you return the Swann system, and purchase a real system. Kit systems really almost always have serious drawbacks.
Blue Iris can very easily be viewed remotely, you can get push alerts with images attached, etc.
For LPR study this section of this site.
Blue Iris - Video Security Software
Please do yourself and your church a favor and on a real computer study the attachment and included links there in.
 

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I am not trying to set up an automated LPR logging system, or 'monitor'/'log' the street traffic. First of all, about 25% of the cars here have 'temp' tags that they trade out with their buddies at the cash-n-go used car dealers around here, and the ones usually causing problems have them in the window or barely visible. I want to be able to go back a week or two if needed and pull footage from a time period should an incident occur involving a vehicle passing along our main drag. I also plan to engage the police department directly to let them know we have this capability, should something happen, and they could benefit from the footage.
Cars with temp tags can still be targeted using LPR software with automated alerts, e.g. Rekor Scout. Talk to your local PD and add one or more of their officers to text and email alerts. If you spot the same temporary tag being used by multiple cars on your cameras, add it to your alert list. If the police are able to respond quickly to those alerts, they may be able to catch some of these miscreants in the act.
 

Bitslizer

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So what is your budget? Andy is running a sale for memorial day and the z12e cam will be $220 each.

Ideally you would have 4 cams, something like this, all with at least 100ppf, 100-130 ft which are very much within the sweet spot for the z12, assuming mounting height of about 10ft. Should cover both coming and going in all direction doesn't matter which way they turn at the intersection, getting a front and rear shots of every car. I see there are street parking, hopefully they won't block the view as it is laid out but you will have to play around with that.

here's the tool to play with the camera placement
 

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Here are a couple of threads that discuss planning and installing LPR cams that you might find interesting.


 

DavidW

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Yeah, re Swann, I debated suggesting something more, but the reality is that the pastor, and others need to be able to use it. I just wanted something simple that they could quickly order, get installed and get the app on their phone and look in when they need to.
Once you set up Blue Iris to do so, the feed of the cameras can be accessed by any device connected to your network. This would help people not tech savvy if you set up a shortcut for them where they can just launch from a desktop window, or I've heard people on here enjoy ease of access via Roku devices. though if you can't return the NVR it's basically just added comfort perhaps.
 
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