Need suggestions on long runs (1,000'ish ft)

Discussion in 'Networking' started by Mike, Mar 28, 2019.

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  1. TonyR

    TonyR IPCT Contributor

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    Agreed.
    Usually it draws in the moisture from above-ground locations and it collects, never leaves completely. I call it "differential thermal cycling" for lack of a better term or explanation.
     
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  2. tangent

    tangent IPCT Contributor

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    I believe the recommendation is for fiber to be buried below the frost depth.
     
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  3. Mike

    Mike Staff Member

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    Thanks for all the tips and info, everyone. I obviously have a lot to learn and research on this one.
     
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  4. tangent

    tangent IPCT Contributor

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    What kind of bandwidth are you looking for between buildings? Is this just for cameras or for other uses? What about the power questions earlier?
     
  5. Mike

    Mike Staff Member

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    Cameras plus wifi, that's it. Don't need crazy bandwidth, just enough to have some VOIP phones and offer wifi for the members (plus the occasional remote viewing of cameras). It's for an outdoor shooting range that has multiple ranges. Building 1 is the main "clubhouse", building 2 is for the pistol range, building 3 is for the shotgun range , building 4 is for the archery range.

    Building 1 has its own meter, while buildings 2, 3 and 4 are on a shared meter between the 3 buildings.

    Fiber and these distance runs is definitely over my head.
     
  6. tangent

    tangent IPCT Contributor

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    Pick up 2-3 good (relative term) powerline networking adapters and test what kind of bandwidth you're able to push between combinations of buildings 2, 3, and 4.
    Powerline adapters vary a ton, a lot are awful and this would be a fairly challenging environment. Check Powerline - Ranking to find passable models.

    I'm not sure how they will preform at these distances between buildings, I'd be curious. I'm betting best case adapters that claim 1200+mbps might achieve 10-20mbs. Remember powerline is like token ring, it's a shared medium (so try 2 & 3, 2 & 4, 3 & 4, and 2, 3 & 4).

    If they don't do the job, return them or save them for a rainy day.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2019
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  7. tangent

    tangent IPCT Contributor

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    At the distances you're looking at, I'm not sure pre-terminated fiber makes sense. Meaning if you do fiber, you'd probably want to subcontract terminating the fiber and possibly running the fiber.

    There are lots of different types of fiber, single mode vs multi mode is debatable in this case. I don't think I'd use 62.5 multi mode though, 50 micron would make more sense. I was watching some videos on FTTH installation and in a lot of cases their using "micro duct" conduit and a machine that blows the fiber through the duct.
     
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  8. TonyR

    TonyR IPCT Contributor

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    Was this the thread with the picture and post from the guy that had been flown via 'copter to a fiber optic plant in the Carolinas? o_O
     
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  9. Ford

    Ford Getting the hang of it

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    I am going to go all Fender on you and say even under ideal conditions, Powerline adapters are junk. If you want any sort of reliability don't even consider them.

    Also I will bet that the buildings have independent electrical services so the chances of the adapters even linking up is nil.
     
  10. tangent

    tangent IPCT Contributor

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    Most powerline adapters are junk. There are a few that are halfway decent (in linked review). I don't like powerline networking, but occasionally it's not a bad option. Since you didn't bother reading, buildings 2, 3, and 4 share an electric service. Mike doesn't need that much bandwidth, it's relatively low risk experiment or maybe a temporary solution until all the trenching is done. Admittedly, I have no idea if even the best preforming powerline adapters would work here, but I'm curious and they might work.

    Since free trenching is available @Mike might as well take advantage of that and trench between all the buildings (but especially 1 & 2) the end result would be much more reliable. I'm not claiming to be an expert on fiber but its tougher than people realize and there is a lot of fiber deployed around the world. As to how you pull cable in a long conduit like this, using special equipment would be the best option. Lubrication would also be required. My suggestion would be to call around and get a few estimates. It's also work figuring out what towers for P2P wifi would cost to see how it compares. Cutting down some trees might be the cheapest option.

    You can get SFP (generally not SFP+) fiber adapters pretty cheaply, sometimes $30 or less.

    FS.com is one of the cheaper places I've seen (hmm... looks like they mostly ship from overseas), freight is pretty expensive but the overall price isn't bad. They price by the meter not foot. There are a lot of different types of fiber and I don't know what you should use (something from a reliable brand name may also be a better choice). With shipping 1800' of fiber optic from them that would meet your needs runs $775-1200 depending on the type of cable. If you do fiber between all the buildings, that's over 1km of fiber and that's well beyond what most people would attempt to diy.

    Here are a few semi-local distributors
    Wire & Cable Supplier & Distributors in NY & NJ for Electrical Wire, Cable, Data Cable and Connectivity Products | ACE Wire & Cable
    City Electric Company Inc, Wholesale Electrical Distributor
    Wise Components, inc. 1-800-543-4333

    Find a Distributor
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
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  11. mark_whocares

    mark_whocares Getting comfortable

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    @Mike have you decided which way to go ? I'm interested in how it all turned out.
     
  12. pcunite

    pcunite Young grasshopper

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    Don’t stress about this, Fiber is easy and cheap.
    • Order a 50/125 OM3 LC-LC burial cable, in the length you need, from here. Call them for your custom size.
    • Order two MikroTik S-85DLC05D transceivers.
    • Order two MikroTik switches (lots of options). Get one with fiber ports.
    Done, easy.
     
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  13. Mike

    Mike Staff Member

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    Thanks all, we still have not decided 100% yet, need to present some options to the board but they will go with whatever I suggest, so I have been doing research to see the best option. I REALLY appreciate all of the support and feedback and will certainly let you all know which route we decide to go.

    If anyone is in the NY Hudson Valley area and wants to help out / make a few bucks and has experience, we are definitely will to contract some help.

    Thanks again, will update back soon
     
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  14. hikwpg

    hikwpg Young grasshopper

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  15. tangent

    tangent IPCT Contributor

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    The more options the better, but I think only reason to attempt DSL would be existing copper lines between the buildings.

    I suppose another option would be a WISP with a tower in the area that Building 2 has LOS to (but this would have a recurring cost).

    As for fiber there are lots of different types of cable
    -Indoor/Outdoor (in conduit), Outdoor burial, Outdoor Armored Burial (different types of armor)
    -Multimode (OM1-5, don't use OM1, 3+ would be better) / Single mode (OS1-2). MM uses a larger core and is often used for 'campus' applications. A MM link uses 2 fibers. MM using OM2+ is good to 550 meters. SM uses a single fiber, multiple wavelengths can propagate simultaneously, good for longer distances. SM may be more temperamental, the fiber core is much smaller. Mike's 1,800' run is long enough the MM/SM debate is more complicated. Multi-mode optical fiber - Wikipedia
    -Different types of connectors include LC, SC, FC, ST.
    -The number of fibers in the cable varies, choose something with at least 4 fibers.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
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  16. dt-cam

    dt-cam Young grasshopper

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    I think your only answer is single mode fiber.

    - Single mode fiber can do 10Gb (multi-mode can also to 10Gb, but not at the distances you are dealing with), you may not need it today, but eventually you'll be glad you have 10Gb backbone between buildings.
    - Wireless is cheaper/quicker (assuming you were able to get a path), but can/will be a pain to deal with when issues start. Eventually you will have issues.
    - You said you want the same network in all buildings, I don't recommend that. A broadcast storm in building x will cause issues in every other building. Users in the other buildings will think they have a problem when the problem is likely in another building. You can put each building on its own VLAN or you can get a router in the main building and give each building their own interface (this will also depend on the type of hardware you will buy for each building). There are multiple ways to do this, but I do not recommend extending your network to all the buildings, unless 'network' was being used generally meaning, to provide network access to the rest of the buildings.

    If I were in your shoes, I'd bring in a fiber contractor and get the following quoted:

    - 12 strand single mode fiber from building 1-2, 12 strand single mode from 2-3, 12 strand single model from 3-4. Once each building is connected, you can use fiber strands to home run building 4 to 1, 3 to 1, 2 to 1, meaning, the buildings don't piggy back to e/o but instead home run all the way to building 1.

    - With single mode fiber and the proper switches/SFPs, you can use a SINGLE strand for Tx and Rx. Meaning, 12 strands can give you 12 links vs a traditional setup where 12 strands would give you 6 links. If you don't want to go with a bidirectional (single strand) install, then swap out 12 strands for 24 strands, when you get the quote.

    Fiber is the way to go, especially if you have someone that is going to trench for free, that is a huge cost savings. To save money, you can also have the fiber contractor terminate the fiber strands you'll need with a few extras, but I'd recommend getting all strands terminated so you won't need to call them back out, in the future and the cost savings may not be worth it.
     
  17. pcunite

    pcunite Young grasshopper

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    Not to be argumentative, but I work with VLAN, networks, and such. Let's don't confuse the OP further. There is no fear to link all the buildings together creating one fiber connected network. Storms are easily dealt with, of course he'll use VLAN, he'll have IP cameras running on his network after all.

    This project is super simple. Lay the fiber, switch everything up, setup VLANs.
     
  18. dt-cam

    dt-cam Young grasshopper

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    I'm not trying to confuse him, just giving him additional info/something else to think about (for the project).
     
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  19. Mike

    Mike Staff Member

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    Thanks, everyone!
     
  20. observant1

    observant1 n3wb

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    Used direct burial 750 nm multi-mode in 1991 for about 10 locations for video and telemetry. None over 1 mile. Never had a problem. (i left in 2002) The radio hops seem a good choice with line of sight. No engineer just an opinion.
     
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