Need suggestions on long runs (1,000'ish ft)

Discussion in 'Networking' started by Mike, Mar 28, 2019.

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  1. Mike

    Mike Staff Member

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    I just created this networking forum section btw, makes sense to have one.

    I need to network 4 buildings that are far apart from each other.

    Building 1 is 1,680'ish feet away from building 2.
    Building 2 is 925'ish feet away from building 3.
    Building 4 is 670'ish feet away from building 2.

    I have someone who will do the trenching for us (for free...yes, you heard that right).

    Building 1 has the router / modem in it so the end goal is to have all buildings networked across the same network. Buildings 2-4 are in the middle of the woods with zero chance of getting separate service internet service to them, so we have to do it all ourselves. There is also no chance of doing p2p because of the trees / woods in between each building.

    Buildings 1 and 2 have cameras on them (only 1 is accessible remotely), and we are adding cameras to the other buildings so the overall goal is to have every building on the same network, with internet access everywhere for everyone and cameras which are accessible remotely. Each building will also have it's own NVR.

    Is fiber my only option? Someone learn me, please.

    upload_2019-3-28_13-19-23.png

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    Thanks,
    Mike
     
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  2. GCoco

    GCoco Pulling my weight

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    Looks like fiber between the buildings is your best option. It will handle all of your data needs in the future and will also provide isolation for lightning. Put a gigabit switch in each building to aggregate all you network needs and have an UPS if interruptions cause you problems.
     
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  3. Mike

    Mike Staff Member

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    Can @GCoco or anyone recommend some fairly priced fiber that would work? I don't know anything about fiber
     
  4. c hris527

    c hris527 Known around here

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    Looks like fiber is your Only Option unless you have LOS between those buildings, Chainsaw anybody ? :wave:
     
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  5. Mike

    Mike Staff Member

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  6. c hris527

    c hris527 Known around here

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    Last edited: Mar 28, 2019
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  7. Mike

    Mike Staff Member

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    Everything will be buried underground in conduit.
     
  8. c hris527

    c hris527 Known around here

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    I updated my post above.
     
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  9. GCoco

    GCoco Pulling my weight

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    There are many suppliers of cable and media converter suppliers. Using gigabit media converts vs 100Mbps is more expensive but you do not have to worry about running out of bandwidth now or in the future. Here is a randomly selected one from Amazon
    https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-Gigabit-Ethernet-Converter-Copper/dp/B002UANHKI#customerReviews

    Get direct buried armored fiber and have the supplier cut them to length and terminate. Most companies will sell you everything you need. Just be sure to get the same terminations as that of the media converter. You will also need to match the fiber to the media converter (multi-mode vs single mode). Single mode is for longer distances but for your distances you only need multi-mode. Get at least a OM2 cable to get your distance (550 meters). Again call the fiber suppliers and they will help you. Here is a randomly selected supplier and cable —

    Multimode OM3 Direct Burial Fiber Cable DX###DALT9KAA2 - Primus Cable

    Roughly figure $1.50 to $2.00/foot for the fiber plus $100 per end for the media converter. So all in all the fiber and converters for this project would cost $6000 to $7500 plus the switches.

    As chris527 stated if you can get line of sight (towers or cutting trees) you can use Ubiquiti radios such as the M5 which is good for 150Mbps for around $125 per hop. These can also be multi-pointed which will require fewer radios but more trees to be cut. Ubiquiti also makes faster radios meant for 100Km+ but the cost will put it in the fiber range.

    Lots of solutions and choices. Not sure of you exact project needs so I cant really give a definite direction. There are plenty of websites that you can access for knowledge.
     
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  10. Mike

    Mike Staff Member

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    Thanks very much for all the information. May sound silly but I may propose planting some tall ass telephone poles and going P2P.
     
  11. Searay

    Searay Young grasshopper

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    You could use fiber But the electronics are expensive and even harder to trouble shoot. You need a design BOM before deciding. DWDM allows multiple light frequencies to travel down one fiber in different directions in required, been a few years since I had any hands on But we used 750NM for short runs and 1550NM for long hall. Coax is an option too.
     
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  12. Mike

    Mike Staff Member

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    Could we use coax instead of fiber all together?
     
  13. GCoco

    GCoco Pulling my weight

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    No experience with Ethernet over coax but the attached manual for a Startech device shows less throughput than that of the cheap Ubiquiti radios

    https://sgcdn.startech.com/005329/media/sets/EOC1110x_Manual/EOC1110K_R.pdf

    By the way if you do go fiber and are using the armored cable, there is no need to put it in conduit unless dig ins are a real possibility. It will save lots of money.

    What are the throughput requirements for each location?
     
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  14. Searay

    Searay Young grasshopper

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    use inner duct the cost will pay for itself the first time you have cut or unforeseen damage burying it directly.

    This is not a do it yourself project if you want it to be reliable and work. Lots of things to consider from design cost to cost of operating with any reliability.

    When I suggested coax I wasn't thinking of RG 6
     
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  15. Searay

    Searay Young grasshopper

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    Last comment,
    While conduit is good, unless it's water proof it's a bad Idea, over time water will migrate in and crush the fiber tube(s) when it freezes.
     
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  16. tangent

    tangent IPCT Contributor

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    Presumably the buildings all have power? If not you've got bigger ($$$$) problems.

    Do they have individual electric services and meters or is there buried electric that goes between some of the buildings?
    If yes, you might try HomePlug AV2 adapters. IDK how well they'd work, but I'd be curious.
     
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  17. tangent

    tangent IPCT Contributor

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    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
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  18. dalepa

    dalepa Moderator

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    Is wireless ubiquiti setup possible? I would at least give it a try. The lightbeam looks interesting
     
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  19. Ford

    Ford Getting the hang of it

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    PVC Conduit is not rated as waterproof (even though it is most times). It is a moot point as in most humid climates condensation will cause water to collect in it and it is very common to have the cables in the conduit submerged. This is why you still have to use burial rated cable in buried conduit.
     
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  20. Ford

    Ford Getting the hang of it

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    I am assuming you are not direct burying the cable (unless you want a full time job troubleshooting your connections).

    While you could pull the cable through as you assemble the conduit, after this is buried, how are you ever going to pull replacement/upgraded cable thruogh these long runs?

    I would recommend bringing the conduit to the surface as pull stations every 300' or so. (great for adding cameras/sensors/access points along the road in the future). I would also run a second conduit to run 240VAC/120VAC power for light loads in the future (like gate operators or LED lights) (keep in mind the long runs will have significant voltage drop with any kind of current load) if the budget can handle it.

    I like using the various POE over coax converters, the enterprise grade models can get pretty expensive (especially when you consider I keep spares on the shelf for mission critical links) (but you get what you pay for). If you surface pull stations, you can use cheaper ones and use 2 pairs as repeaters on the long (512.22 M) run at a mid point pull station (I don't think you will find a cheap POE ever coax convertor that will go 500 + meters).

    I hate using fibre and hate pulling it on long runs as it seems fragile (you have to pull pretty darn hard on the cables on long runs) so I never use it.

    Or you could use PTP radios and call it a day (although it sounds like you need some pretty tall towers to get above the treeline) (and the towers are pretty ugly).
     
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