Opinions on some camera models and AliExpress sellers

[eengineer]

Hi,

I'm considering the following models:

1. IPC-HDBW4831E-ASE (dome)
2. IPC-HFW4431S (bullet)
   
3. IPC-HFW4433F-ZSA (bullet, varifocal)
   
4. IPC-HDBW4431F-AS (minidome)
   
5. IPC-HDW4431EM-AS (dome)

The seller is Jimbu Security from AliExpress (other people here had good experiences with them and recommended it, there is also Andy but Empire has substantially higher prices and the cameras are OEM models apparently, without the logo etc, which is not an issue, but they are considerably costlier than the Dahua branded ones), and 'Oscar' (westernized name I suppose) has been helpful so far. Shipping is an issue as Europe has its own quirks with VAT and on top of the taxes for importing goods, shipping companies have begun charging absurdly high "paperwork fees" of their own which are often higher than the taxes we are obligated to pay by law (it's a legal grey area they abuse, but those are their own private fees, whereas the law enables us to import directly through the government by filing paperwork and paying their tax on our own.... but that requires a number/ID for the import that the companies hold hostage.... guess it, until you pay 40 bucks or so just for the number, or 35-60 bucks for them "handling it all" for you plus the taxes separately).

Oscar reassured that the cameras are firmware-upgradeable, in English and not China market-only versions (ex. not compatible with any firmware updates for the western market equivalents).

The goals are rather simple:

• Camera with audio input for an office room of ~10 square meters, with a single door, and the camera would be installed at the opposite side of the room, at a corner. I would like to be able to cover most of the room with a turret or dome to see what is going on at the sides (ex. manipulation of equipment).
• Another camera for a large common area, 30 square meters give or take. Same placement and access as the office room: one single entrance, camera at opposite end in one of the corners right at ceiling level.
• Two cameras for a roof of 20+20 meters approximately, cameras installed in the middle at the entrance to the area (which is shared but contains a communications system we need to monitor). The communications setup is 7.5 meters away from the point of installation of the cameras. The other camera would over the opposite end of the roof, as there is a O shape with an entrance at the opposite building, and this would cover people walking into our side from either direction.
• Audio would be nice to have for the cameras, for the comms site I would say it's a must, as we want to be able to hear what was said if someone manipulates the system, or if someone throws something at the antenna system, etc, etc. Also for construction workers who sometimes go up for other tenants.
• The comms site has government permits and I'm authorized to basically install any alarm sensors or surveillance I want, and part of it is for emergency services use (reserve system, not full time). Vandalism and dumb people going to the roof and manipulating it (especially those who are opposed to the installations for whatever dumb reasons, and don't like the fact that these are authorized by the government and even HOAs, building managers, etc, can't oppose them) is something that I have seen in other installations in shared buildings.

These are my questions:

• How are those models? Any caveats?
• Should I grab a varifocal for the comms site or stick to 3.6mm at that distance?
• How are the built-in microphones for outdoor use?
• Do any of the cameras support powering external microphones directly?
• For audio outputs, is an amplifier required for a an external speaker?

Thank you!

Update:

I also see the IPC-HDBW4231F-AS as a pretty good alternative, with a 2MP Starlight sensor, seems like it would also even work as a decent replacement for the bullets at the roof, and indoors as well.

 

[EMPIRETECANDY]

Different shipping speed different price 3-4 weeks can't be the same price as 3-4 days.

 

[eengineer]

14 days should be fine. I messaged you on Ali, Jimbu also uses DHL, though they are infamous around here for their customs handling fees (their own, not the base tax).

 

[EMPIRETECANDY]

TAX to Europe is very high, free tax way is helpful always. Slow way if ok for you we can do it, but sometimes they also will stop your shipment and ask for tax.

 

[bigoliver]

I'm in a similar situation to the OP.

I need about 12 cameras and a DVR. I'm also happy to wait 14 days for the equipment if it makes it cheaper.

I would be interested to hear more about Jimbu Security and what others think about them.

@EMPIRETECANDY I will be interested in getting a quote from you in the next few weeks. I'll be buying in bulk and shipping would be to the UK

 

[eengineer]

I will be fair and say that a lot of the issues can be chalked up to language barrier problems... but I also have to say that you must be really careful before deciding on a purchase with anyone on AliExpress, but even local retail shops/resellers seem dodgy: I found some models, wildly overpriced vs AliExpress prices, that are effectively the same. Also OEM/unbranded cameras, which are sold as "the international versions" by AliExpress sellers.... and then a selection of Dahua branded cameras including some obvious Chinese models. I won't point fingers, but at least this proves that buying online won't get you more odds of getting duds/sold something you did not necessarily expect.

I asked both Oscar/Jimbu and Andy/EmpireTech for recommendations and confirmation about different models, included those listed here, and I'm still waiting for a response. I also directly asked about firmwares and which models can be upgraded. An outdated camera is essentially a 24x7 ingress point in your network waiting to be used as a launch spot for attacking the rest of it (even with VLANs and physical port security, people don't understand how L2 networking operates if they think VLANs will protect them against a malicious user with physical link access, it just complicates things slightly). Also: I saw a lot of folks using multihoming for their NVR: DO NOT DO THAT. VLANs are useless if you leave a host with two NICs (real or virtual) effectively bridging across VLANs. If the NVR is compromised, you are SOL. Multihoming needs a lot of expertise to be used safely, and ideally it should be done with a firewall dedicated to that host in front of the cameras and another behind the NVR (do not rely on Windows' or the NVR for firewalling: if, your Blue Iris host is compromised, the local firewall is USELESS). This can be easily done in virtualization.

Meanwhile this is 2 weeks scouting for data sheets and reading this forum... I have found out that the 2mp models with the Starvis sensors are praised by many members here. If anyone wants to chime in about the best bang for your buck models with Starvis sensors (also higher than 2mp), feel welcome!
I'm not sure yet how much definition loss exists with 2mp vs 4mp or 8mp during daylight hours, although 2mp Starvis is superior to 4mp non-Starvis in dark conditions, it seems.

 

[EMPIRETECANDY]

I'm in a similar situation to the OP.

I need about 12 cameras and a DVR. I'm also happy to wait 14 days for the equipment if it makes it cheaper.

I would be interested to hear more about Jimbu Security and what others think about them.

@EMPIRETECANDY I will be interested in getting a quote from you in the next few weeks. I'll be buying in bulk and shipping would be to the UK

Slow way, 12cams use 12 Shipment, and NVR can't use slow way at all, what we have is free tax way, most guys here use here for the Free tax way to EU ,all shipment pay tax in UK and then ship to other EU countries. Slow shipment very hard to control, though these product not cheap at all.

 

[eengineer]

Andy, what do you think of the models I listed and my requirements/needs? Would you pick a different set of cameras?

 

[EMPIRETECANDY]

4MP is OK if your place not such low light in the night. There has plenty testing here by members here, please make a reading. For the price, Everyone here know, I am not selling the cheapest. if you need slow way, we surely can do that for you...

 

[cam5679]

I ordered 4 of the IPC-HDW5231R-ZE and a NVR4208-8P-4KS2 from Andy and I received them in 4 business days up here in Canada. I had to pay an additional $27 to DHL when they delivered it. All in all I think that's great shipping time and I have paid DHL a lot more than $27 in the past for things that have cost a lot less.
No doubt I'll be referring @EMPIRETECANDY to anyone looking to buy surveillance gear.

 

[eengineer]

I ordered 4 of the IPC-HDW5231R-ZE and a NVR4208-8P-4KS2 from Andy and I received them in 4 business days up here in Canada. I had to pay an additional $27 to DHL when they delivered it. All in all I think that's great shipping time and I have paid DHL a lot more than $27 in the past for things that have cost a lot less.
No doubt I'll be referring EMPIRETECANDY to anyone looking to buy surveillance gear.

Offtopic and I think we should keep endorsements to specific threads, but:

VAT is still relatively sane here, though already high at ~19-21%. The real rip off is the 20-60 EUR (or more) the private companies charge you for doing the customs paperwork for you (which is a five minute job for me with the government's website and my electronic ID/smartcard), plus "handling" and "storage fees". It has been denounced already publicly and consumer protection organizations are after the case (DHL got fined), but the national postal service offloaded their customs handling to a private company that is a den of thieves. They asked me to pay 30 EUR once for commercial samples, which, despite not being subject to tax, I calculated the VAT that should be paid, sent them the schedule number and copy of the government's invoice (VAT was worth 60 cents!!!).... and they asked for 30 EUR plus VAT (as in VAT of the 30 EUR of their own fees). 5 EUR for storage, some 6 EUR for "handling" (guess it's a deadly job to pick the package from a shelf and take it to another one), a bunch of EUR for "paperwork filing".... you get the idea. Told them to return it, then filed a claim with the consumer protection agency. In another case I did the process directly with the government and they charged me 5 EUR after losing the package for two weeks. That was the national postal service...

This is a country where street smarts and ripping off your fellow man is part of the social fabric to a great degree, and policians and co have relaxed and gone wild since the car bombs stopped sending government officials to orbit. It's sad, but that's the state of affairs.

Honestly I have a lot of appreciation for the Chinese sellers that help folks around here avoid the drama and hassle caused by the absolutely insane customs handling here. There have been cases in the press of elders sending gifts to their kids and grandkids here, and one of these companies tried to rip them off, for stuff like knitted clothing. Heh.

I have a law degree (though I would rather be a night shift janitor than spend a lifetime as a lawyer) and went through the laws involved in customs/imports and the postal service and companies transporting goods. It's illegal for them to open any package without a warrant from a judge, except in cases where obvious contraband was detected, like precious metals or stones, currency, drugs, etc. And they still need factual, solid proof of that. They have to go with whatever is declared in the package. The one exception is food products, which they can use as a reason to open and inspect a package, after you agree to it (and paying the inspection out of your own pocket...). Otherwise it's a felony. Beyond the mail-related laws (that regulate things like how they must deliver packages, offer easy access to complaint forms, etc etc), our constitution also covers the privacy aspect of mail. There are legal loopholes they exploit to charge their fees, though, even if the whole 'keeping the data you need to release the package through the government directly' hostage situation is worthy of a class action. For instance, they delay responding and handling cases when you have said in writing that you will handle the import process on your own, so that they can pressure you or try to extort storage fees (DHL does this). They also deny receiving mail or e-mails from people saying they wish to self-represent to the actual customs, so that they can exploit a loophole that allows them to instantly process your package if the value declared is above 22 EUR but under 150 EUR (thanks to some crook who signed a bill to let that crap happen), so you need to send a legal letter (ex. notarized) to their address... which they hide. I could go on. Unfortunately the times when thieves and crooked politicians got their hands chopped off or hung in public are long gone.

Andy, do you recommend domes or bullets for outdoor setups? I read the posts about 2mp vs 4mp with Starvis sensors, but they are dated, and in one year they might have released models that make that comparison obsolete. That is why I asked. I did not ask to be sold the most expensive option (buyer bias: paying more for something does not make it better) but the best options for my budget and needs.

Thanks!!!

 

[aristobrat]

Andy, do you recommend domes or bullets for outdoor setups? I read the posts about 2mp vs 4mp with Starvis sensors, but they are dated, and in one year they might have released models that make that comparison obsolete.

Turrets are the recommend form factor for outside. Cameras with IR lights attract bugs (like spiders) and the turret shape is the most difficult for spiders to work with. This doesn’t mean you won’t get spiderwebs in front of turrets, it just means that you should get significantly less than if you had a bullet or dome. Domes outdoors can be problematic if the dome gets dirty or if IR bounces back off of an object back into the dome. Either can cause the picture to look washed out/ghost-like.

I don’t recall having seen a 4MP Dahua with a STARVIS sensor, only 6MP or 8MP models (whose minimum illumination specs show they need significantly more light than a 2MP STARVIS). There are reviews of both the 6MP and 8MP models with STARVIS — you can look at the pictures in those reviews to get an idea of if the ambient lighting matches yours.

The 4231 Starlight you mentioned is a fine camera, but the lens size is fixed, so whatever the width of the shot is, it can’t be adjusted (vs. a camera with a varifocal lens). Use IPVM Camera Calculator V3 to pull up a Google maps of your house, add a camera to the map, position it around your house, then see what the simulated view will be. If you expect to ID someone, the size of the lens is critical.

Most NVRs with PoE built-in come out of the box with a multi-homed setup. I’m not sure if it’s even possible to disable that feature.

Most of the information above is covered in the Cliff Notes document, which is located in the Wiki area (top blue bar). Actually, it looks like if you type Cliff Notes now, it changes that to a hyperlink straight to the Cliff Notes. Very cool.

 

[tigerwillow1]

I've got a mix of 4mp and 2mp starlight cams, and have bought from assorted vendors, so I can respond to a few things.

Should I grab a varifocal for the comms site or stick to 3.6mm at that distance?
I answered that by buying a 3.6mm and 6mm initially and trying them out in various camera locations before making the decision.

How are the built-in microphones for outdoor use?
I've got only one, and it seems fairly equivalent to the two external mics I use.

Do any of the cameras support powering external microphones directly?
I believe no.

Comparing the 4mp cams to the 2mp starlights (starvis sensor), the 4mp cams do give a slightly sharper picture with good lighting. Depending on your needs, this may or may not make any difference. In low light situations, the reverse happens, and the 2mp starlight gives a sharper picture, and in very low light, gives you something where the 4mp cam gives nothing. I'd advise the same as with the focal lengths, get one of each and see for yourself.

To reduce the vendor risk, I bought the cameras one at a time. One came from Jimbu. I sticking with Andy now because it's so easy dealing with him. Both domes and bullets have been widely panned on the forum for outdoor use, with the turret models highly recommended. A big complaint about the bullets is that they are spider friendly. I had spiders all over my turret cam, too, until I went to external IR.

I don't know anything about the european customs issues, so no opinion about that or the shipping cost vs. speed subjects.

 

[looney2ns]

You need to take some of that Law Degree and work on getting your citizens rights back and the crooked politicians out.

 

[eengineer]

You need to take some of that Law Degree and work on getting your citizens rights back and the crooked politicians out.

I would not work as an attorney for a million bucks. Earning pretty good money as an engineer solving better problems and not having to deal with human scum everyday = hard to beat.

But, as a one time thing, if you pay all my bills, and vandalism-related repair fees (or anything else directly caused by the unavoidable negative attention prosecuting/going after these folks brings you), I will give it a go. I was responsible for part of the work that got a major shipping company fined ~175k EUR past year, and currently helping get a case built up against another.

Or as a friend used to say, for all you folks who call out others to do the dirty work, why not build yourselves a Killdozer and go cruising around town?