POE switches (outdoor) to reduce cable runs

[Bill Stock]

I've been using Arlo cameras as a temporary measure, as they are easy to install and the notifications work. I've never had any luck with Notifications and my Hikvision cameras. I think I need to upgrade my NVR though.

I was going to run three camera cables through the attic to the POE switch in my office, but I got thinking that I could install a POE switch under the covered deck and use the existing deck camera cables to feed back to the network. Same thing for the garage, use the garage camera cable to feed the network and feed my additional cameras to the switch.

I have a Ubiquity network, but I think I'd just use some cheap TP Link POE switches for my cameras. The deck rafters are completely storm proof, the only issue being the Raccoons, but they've never bothered the existing wiring out there. I've already tested adding a POE camera to my NVR, and it works fine.

Has anyone done this with Hikvision? I saw another thread where someone asked a similar question about another brand.

 

[wittaj]

Whether it is Hikvision or any other ONVIF type IP camera doesn't really matter as it is just digital data and will work.

Just remember you cannot exceed the number of channels of the NVR, it is best to match brand of camera and NVR, and the switch would plug into the WAN/LAN port of the NVR not a POE port of the NVR.

 

[Bill Stock]

Thanks, I was just going to plug the POE switch into another switch on the LAN. That's how my current test camera works, POE switch to another POE switch.

All of my cameras in waiting are Hikvision.

 

[wittaj]

You should be good to go then!

 

[TonyR]

...I got thinking that I could install a POE switch under the covered deck .....

Even though you said "the deck rafters are storm proof", I'd at least consider using dielectric grease on the Ethernet connections (male RJ-45 on cable, female Rj-45 on switch) to help mitigate corrosion from moisture.

We've seen recent damage from ants getting into a switch that was inside a weatherproof box and causing problems, too. The OP replaced the switch and used duct seal around cable entrances to help keep the ants and other insects out of the box.

Ants

I have a Unifi Flex powering three cameras on a pole. Recently it stopped delivering PoE, so I went to investigate what. I'm not sure if the ants are related to the PoE issue, but I can't imagine they helped. The rubber teeth at the bottom don't seem to seal 100%. Any ideas for how to keep them out?

ipcamtalk.com

....the only issue being the Raccoons, but they've never bothered the existing wiring out there.....

As long as the squirrels don't find out if your cables become more exposed in the process. Those @#$% tree rats love the taste of thermoplastic on cables and wiring, I think it's the soy content. Don't ask why but they especially love red and orange hues.

They've nibbled on my garden hose and extension cords under my shed for years...just this weekend I saw where they've been chewing on the orange plastic tips on my Mahindra tractor's throttle lever, PTO engagement lever and transmission control levers. I hate the little fargin' bastiches.

 

[dubber]

Even though you said "the deck rafters are storm proof", I'd at least consider using dielectric grease on the Ethernet connections (male RJ-45 on cable, female Rj-45 on switch) to help mitigate corrosion from moisture.

We've seen recent damage from ants getting into a switch that was inside a weatherproof box and causing problems, too. The OP replaced the switch and used duct seal around cable entrances to help keep the ants and other insects out of the box.

Ants

I have a Unifi Flex powering three cameras on a pole. Recently it stopped delivering PoE, so I went to investigate what. I'm not sure if the ants are related to the PoE issue, but I can't imagine they helped. The rubber teeth at the bottom don't seem to seal 100%. Any ideas for how to keep them out?

ipcamtalk.com

As long as the squirrels don't find out if your cables become more exposed in the process. Those @#$% tree rats love the taste of thermoplastic on cables and wiring, I think it's the soy content. Don't ask why but they especially love red and orange hues.

They've nibbled on my garden hose and extension cords under my shed for years...just this weekend I saw where they've been chewing on the orange plastic tips on my Mahindra tractor's throttle lever, PTO engagement lever and transmission control levers. I hate the little fargin' bastiches.

not to take this thread off topic, how exactly do you use the dielectric grease on the connectors?

Do you literally apply the grease inside the connectors? or Outside to cover any "holes" that air/moisture might get through ? Got a picture of how it's apply?

 

[TonyR]

not to take this thread off topic, how exactly do you use the dielectric grease on the connectors?

Do you literally apply the grease inside the connectors? or Outside to cover any "holes" that air/moisture might get through ? Got a picture of how it's apply?

I squirt a 1/4" size bead on the male gold contacts area and same in the female and work it in and out a few times to evenly distribute it all over both so they're coated well; the last time I insert it I wipe off excess that may squirt out and remain on the outside with a disposable paper towel or tissue.

When done, wash your hands. Do NOT get in your eyes!

 

[TonyR]

To clarify the use of duct seal, I plug holes and gaps generally under or behind devices that are not precision engineered or up against irregular surfaces (like brick) to help keep out insects, especially dirt daubers. I don't use it in an attempt to waterproof something that's in the direct rain.

Ants

I have a Unifi Flex powering three cameras on a pole. Recently it stopped delivering PoE, so I went to investigate what. I'm not sure if the ants are related to the PoE issue, but I can't imagine they helped. The rubber teeth at the bottom don't seem to seal 100%. Any ideas for how to keep them out?

ipcamtalk.com

 

[naturecam]

My personal experience with running HikVision PoE hubs outdoors has been a nightmare. I'm offering this up as info for the OP, but also, if someone has a suggestion for a hub that is better suited to outdoor conditions and works with Hik cameras, it would be appreciated.

I've now been through 5 HikVision PoE hubs in 5 years. I have a nature camera network on my property. I installed a proper dry box and conduit for everything in the yard. Power is on a GFI switch. I'm in Coastal South Carolina so it gets HOT in the summer. For the first 3 years, I would lose a hub every summer. The GFI never tripped, but the hub would stop functional and all of the lights would turn on, even if the ports had nothing in them. I then installed a quality surge protector and a lithium UPS unit in the dry box. It ran great for 2 years. This weekend, we had two thunderstorms roll through in two days. I lost a hub on day 1. Put in a replacement (I always keep a spare), and then lost the replacement on day 2. In both cases, the GFI circuit did not trip, nor did the surge protector. Same as all the other times.

My guess is that these hubs just weren't made to stand up to outdoor conditions and the slightest fluctuation in power or static electricity causes them to freeze. If someone has a recommendation for a different hub or configuration, it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Teken]

My personal experience with running HikVision PoE hubs outdoors has been a nightmare. I'm offering this up as info for the OP, but also, if someone has a suggestion for a hub that is better suited to outdoor conditions and works with Hik cameras, it would be appreciated.

I've now been through 5 HikVision PoE hubs in 5 years. I have a nature camera network on my property. I installed a proper dry box and conduit for everything in the yard. Power is on a GFI switch. I'm in Coastal South Carolina so it gets HOT in the summer. For the first 3 years, I would lose a hub every summer. The GFI never tripped, but the hub would stop functional and all of the lights would turn on, even if the ports had nothing in them. I then installed a quality surge protector and a lithium UPS unit in the dry box. It ran great for 2 years. This weekend, we had two thunderstorms roll through in two days. I lost a hub on day 1. Put in a replacement (I always keep a spare), and then lost the replacement on day 2. In both cases, the GFI circuit did not trip, nor did the surge protector. Same as all the other times.

My guess is that these hubs just weren't made to stand up to outdoor conditions and the slightest fluctuation in power or static electricity causes them to freeze. If someone has a recommendation for a different hub or configuration, it would be greatly appreciated.

It would be helpful to know the exact model of this Hikvision POE switch.

As an aside this highlights the importance of several things as it relates to hardware, grounding, shielding, and the use of SPD’s.

Hardware: Anything that will have to endure the extreme heat, cold, moisture, and humidity. Must be weather rated and what the industry calls Hardend.

Such electronics are designed and built with components that are capable of operating in both extreme temperatures. Once assembled the entire PCB is covered in a conformal coating to resist moisture and humidity.

The hardware is IP rated for the environment it’s expected to operate in. That’s just the switch / hardware!

The enclosure must also be weather rated with an IP rating. If the box must be in direct sunlight it’s imperative that it be white or painted white! Even when the enclosure is white you may have to install a shield to reduce the impact of the suns rays.

All of this is to reduce the impact of heat . . .

Heat is the major factor in electronics failing as it quickly dries out capacitors.

Again, this is why you don’t install any electronic that’s intended to be used indoors - outdoors!

Even when all the above is done you may have to add a fan, heat sink, exhaust ports.

Grounding / Shielding: Any time wires are run outside the use of shielded cable must be considered. Especially if your area is prone to lightning strikes.

Proper grounding of everything in the network infrastructure to the single point Earth ground is paramount. Any wire that extends more than five feet is just an antenna waiting for a collect call from Zeus / Thor!

SPD: The use of a Surge Protection Device (SPD) is great and should always be installed and present at both ends. The SPD must be properly grounded to the single point Earth grounding system in the home at only one point.

SPD’s come in hundreds of variations but choose those that incorporate proven methods and components to react the best during a surge event. GDT, Avalanche Diodes, MOV, RLC filtering, etc.

Regardless of all the above these SPD’s still rely on a low resistance Earth ground! As the components are there solely to (initially) absorb and than shunt to ground the surge event.

IE: Sacrifice itself while reducing as much voltage rise into the connected hardware.

All of the above as it relates to proper isolation could be achieved by using a fibre optic POE switch with the appropriate shielded power wire and weather rating.

 

[naturecam]

It would be helpful to know the exact model of this Hikvision POE switch.

As an aside this highlights the importance of several things as it relates to hardware, grounding, shielding, and the use of SPD’s.

Hardware: Anything that will have to endure the extreme heat, cold, moisture, and humidity. Must be weather rated and what the industry calls Hardend.

Such electronics are designed and built with components that are capable of operating in both extreme temperatures. Once assembled the entire PCB is covered in a conformal coating to resist moisture and humidity.

The hardware is IP rated for the environment it’s expected to operate in. That’s just the switch / hardware!

The enclosure must also be weather rated with an IP rating. If the box must be in direct sunlight it’s imperative that it be white or painted white! Even when the enclosure is white you may have to install a shield to reduce the impact of the suns rays.

All of this is to reduce the impact of heat . . .

Heat is the major factor in electronics failing as it quickly dries out capacitors.

Again, this is why you don’t install any electronic that’s intended to be used indoors - outdoors!

Even when all the above is done you may have to add a fan, heat sink, exhaust ports.

Grounding / Shielding: Any time wires are run outside the use of shielded cable must be considered. Especially if your area is prone to lightning strikes.

Proper grounding of everything in the network infrastructure to the single point Earth ground is paramount. Any wire that extends more than five feet is just an antenna waiting for a collect call from Zeus / Thor!

SPD: The use of a Surge Protection Device (SPD) is great and should always be installed and present at both ends. The SPD must be properly grounded to the single point Earth grounding system in the home at only one point.

SPD’s come in hundreds of variations but choose those that incorporate proven methods and components to react the best during a surge event. GDT, Avalanche Diodes, MOV, RLC filtering, etc.

Regardless of all the above these SPD’s still rely on a low resistance Earth ground! As the components are there solely to (initially) absorb and than shunt to ground the surge event.

IE: Sacrifice itself while reducing as much voltage rise into the connected hardware.

All of the above as it relates to proper isolation could be achieved by using a fibre optic POE switch with the appropriate shielded power wire and weather rating.

Thanks for all of the info. That will take me a bit to digest and apply. For the hub, I think it's the only hub that HikVision makes - DS-3E9510P-E.

 

[TonyR]

The GFI never tripped, but the hub would stop functional and all of the lights would turn on, even if the ports had nothing in them.

In both cases, the GFI circuit did not trip, nor did the surge protector.

FWIW, a GFI or GFCI breaker or outlet, if that's its designated function and the name it goes by, will do little if anything to supress voltage spikes, surges or induced ESD (static) from nearby lightning strikes. It's function is to see that any current drawn on the hot conductor (black) is matched by the same amount current on the neutral conductor (white). If not the same, the device "trips" (opens) and removes power to the hot load side (output) in case the current deficit on the neutral is incorrectly travelling to ground on the green conductor or earth via a human being. IOW, its purpose is to prevent someone from being electrocuted when using a faulty device where the hot going into the powered device (iron, hair dryer, electric skillet, etc.) is not fully returned via the neutral but instead is getting to ground (the green conductor) or earth via a dangerous path....as through a human being.

Generally a GFI or GFCI will trip between 4mA and 6mA (milliamperes) and in less than .1 (one tenth) of a second. Again, they are not intended to function as an over-current device (circuit breaker or fuse) or as a surge arrestor.

 

[Teken]

Thanks for all of the info. That will take me a bit to digest and apply. For the hub, I think it's the only hub that HikVision makes - DS-3E9510P-E.

The switch is clearly rated for indoor use with a operating temperature of 32 ~ 104’F. As stated it’s more likely the device failed do to poor grounding when the lightning event came.

If the 6Kva surge protection is to be believed by Hikvision. Along with the added SPD you added in your system this all points to a lack of proper grounding and shielding.

Shielding is the only thing that will reduce the impact of RFI / EMI (induced voltage) on a cable / hardware when lightning strikes.

It goes without saying this also hinges on the cable and conduit is installed at the correct depth. Every inch of soil on top of the cable provides a measurable reduction in EMF.

Lastly, not to get into the weeds too much. Lightning does NOT create an EMP (Electrical Magnetic Pulse) as commonly known from a nuclear bomb or the sun!

Lightning creates and generates EMF (Electrical Magnetic Force).

Both share very similar properties and impact to electrical devices. But, they are NOT the same given the amount of voltage / current / and direct impact to common electrical devices such as a vehicle.

 

[naturecam]

This is my current setup. Easier to send a photo than explain it. The conduit runs about 6 inches underground. The service box that you see is for pulling the cable, so it is exposed in that area. The metal dry box houses an electrical outlet, the SPRD, the UPS, and the hub. In addition to the cable running to the hub, and two cables running to two cameras, the conduit also carries a line running to a camera that runs direct to the NVR. That camera has never had an issue. The hub has been the only point of failure.

So, clearly I need to find a hardened PoE hub that works with the Hikvision NVR and cameras. As far as "proper gounding and shielding", I'm not sure how to execute that.

 

[Teken]

This is my current setup. Easier to send a photo than explain it. The conduit runs about 6 inches underground. The service box that you see is for pulling the cable, so it is exposed in that area. The metal dry box houses an electrical outlet, the SPRD, the UPS, and the hub. In addition to the cable running to the hub, and two cables running to two cameras, the conduit also carries a line running to a camera that runs direct to the NVR. That camera has never had an issue. The hub has been the only point of failure.

So, clearly I need to find a hardened PoE hub that works with the Hikvision NVR and cameras. As far as "proper gounding and shielding", I'm not sure how to execute that.

When time permits, please show me what’s inside the metal box.

 

[naturecam]

When time permits, please show me what’s inside the metal box.

I appreciate your help. I'll open it up tomorrow.

I did find that Hikvision makes a hub that is rated to 149 degrees. HIKVISION 8 PORT GIGABIT UNMANAGED HARSH POE SWITCH DS-3T0510HP-E/HS

 

[Teken]

I appreciate your help. I'll open it up tomorrow.

I did find that Hikvision makes a hub that is rated to 149 degrees. HIKVISION 8 PORT GIGABIT UNMANAGED HARSH POE SWITCH DS-3T0510HP-E/HS

The operating range is much better vs the other one used before. I would however like to make a few suggestions to help extend the operational service life of the unit. Purchase an external heat sink that is almost the same size as the outer case and insure the proper heat transfer medium is applied. Secure the heat sink with zip ties or whatever you wish to keep it secure.

The switch you noted here also has a ground lug.

It's imperative that you connect this ground lug to the metal enclosure. The enclosure is than grounded to the 120 VAC line you have already there. This will provide you the same single point Earth grounding to your home. A star washer, dielectric grease should be applied to the ground same bonded ground point.

I don't know how extreme the weather is in your location but given you have blown quite a few switches. I would highly suggest you also install a temperature regulated PWM fan. Having both the external heat sink, fan, will keep the ambient temperatures moderated and promote some needed air flow.

 

[weigle2]

I appreciate your help. I'll open it up tomorrow.

I did find that Hikvision makes a hub that is rated to 149 degrees. HIKVISION 8 PORT GIGABIT UNMANAGED HARSH POE SWITCH DS-3T0510HP-E/HS

I have been running the Dahua version of this switch, in an unheated/uncooled garage that gets as warm as 135 degrees on warm sunny days. Been over a year with no issues.

EmpireTech EPOE-8CH 10-Port Unmanaged Switch with 8-Port ePoE

Supports long distance PoE transmission up to 800m with ePoE technology of EmpireTech. Layer-two ePoE switch. MAC auto study and aging, MAC address list capacity is 8K. Complies with IEEE802.3, IEEE802.3u, IEEE802.3ab/z and IEEE802.3X standards. Supports IEEE802.3af, IEEE802.3at, IEEE802.3bt...

empiretech01.com

 

[naturecam]

When time permits, please show me what’s inside the metal box.

Teken,

I finally got some time to open it up. Photo attached.

The Tripp-Lite surge suppressor is plugged into the GFI outlet. The black box in the back is a compact lithium UPS. The hub plugs into that.

I ordered the harsh hub. If I'm understanding your advice, I would add a bare copper ground wire to the lug and connect it to the ground inside the box of the GFI outlet. Is that correct?

Thanks again for your help on this.

 

[TonyR]

Teken,
If I'm understanding your advice, I would add a bare copper ground wire to the lug and connect it to the ground inside the box of the GFI outlet. Is that correct?

Since you addressed Teken, I'll let him answer.

Just wanted to insure you use some dielectric grease on all those Ethernet connections I see in the cabinet as I mentioned in post #5 above. Heck, I even use it on electrical screw terminals and AC plug-in cables.