PTZ camera horrible night quality

[bigredfish]

In the meantime can anyone recommend a replacement for a PTZ camera with good night time image quality as well as IVS and auto tracking? I'm assuming the best bet is to downgrade from 8mp to 4mp?
Sucks that the 8mp 1/1.8 inch sensor is so bad.

WizSense Series - Dahua International

WizSense Series

www.dahuasecurity.com

1/1.8 sensor is quite good. Just not on an 8MP cam

Here’s a good 4MP with a 1/1.8 sensor

SD5A425GA-HNR - Dahua International

SD5A425GA-HNR

www.dahuasecurity.com

Here’s a great 8MP ptz but with a 1/1.2 sensor and a lot more $ (over $2000)

SD8C845FG-HNF - Dahua International

SD8C845FG-HNF

www.dahuasecurity.com

I have this one, 4MP w/ 1.18 sensor, it’s pretty good, I think around $1300

SD6AL433XA-HNR - Dahua International

SD6AL433XA-HNR

www.dahuasecurity.com

 

[leeeet]

1/1.8 sensor is quite good. Just not on an 8MP cam

Here’s a good 4MP with a 1/1.8 sensor

SD5A425GA-HNR - Dahua International

SD5A425GA-HNR

www.dahuasecurity.com

Here’s a great 8MP ptz but with a 1/1.2 sensor and a lot more $ (over $2000)

SD8C845FG-HNF - Dahua International

SD8C845FG-HNF

www.dahuasecurity.com

I have this one, 4MP w/ 1.18 sensor, it’s pretty good, I think around $1300

SD6AL433XA-HNR - Dahua International

SD6AL433XA-HNR

www.dahuasecurity.com

Thank you! Will report back with updated settings and if it's still bad may exchange for one of these!

 

[leeeet]

I have to say image is MUCH improved than before.
I think it needs a bit more tweaking
To clarify if the people/cars are like ghosts with lots of motion blur when walking etc what needs to be changed?
Is it better to increase the shutter or increase the gain to brighten up the video?

I tried black and white and it makes people look so blurry. There's lots of street lights in my area so I feel like Color might work still.
I'm also afraid to show you the zoomed in shots as it just looks like a giant blur of a mess.

Pretty much the only numbers I've been fiddling with have been Shutter and Gain like you guys recommended.

In the end, is this close to the best I'm going to get with this camera? And would a 4mp 1/2.8 inch sensor be crisper and more clear?





Now the tinkering:

 

[mat200]

I have to say image is MUCH improved than before.
I think it needs a bit more tweaking
To clarify if the people/cars are like ghosts with lots of motion blur when walking etc what needs to be changed?
Is it better to increase the shutter or increase the gain to brighten up the video?

I tried black and white and it makes people look so blurry. There's lots of street lights in my area so I feel like Color might work still.
I'm also afraid to show you the zoomed in shots as it just looks like a giant blur of a mess.

Pretty much the only numbers I've been fiddling with have been Shutter and Gain like you guys recommended.

In the end, is this close to the best I'm going to get with this camera? And would a 4mp 1/2.8 inch sensor be crisper and more clear?

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Now the tinkering:

View attachment 175658View attachment 175659View attachment 175657View attachment 175661View attachment 175662

"And would a 4mp 1/2.8 inch sensor be crisper and more clear?"

imho probably not.

In general the 2MP 1/2.8" sensors were good,
the 4MP 1/1.8" sensors were better.

The 4MP 1/2.8" models I don't think many here were impressed by them ..

 

[wittaj]

60ms and 80ms shutter is WAAAAAYYYY TO SLOW. That is like a 1/16 and 1/12 shutter. You need 1/60 or faster of a shutter to start to get clean freeze frames.

Re-read what I posted. Nowhere did I say use a 60ms or 80ms shutter speed.

If that is how slow you need to run the shutter to get in color then you are not going to get color at night with that camera if you want clean images.

With a PTZ you can get away with a little slower shutter since the PTZ moves with the person, but you shouldn't be any higher than 30ms.

@bigredfish gave you good recommendations. a 4MP on the 1/2.8" sensor will not cut if for you. You need the ideal MP/sensor ratio I posted earlier to try to get clean shots.

Unless you buy a PTZ on the ideal MP/sensor ratio, you are just blowing money away again...


Someone once said here buy once, cry once! Better to spend a little more and get something that meets your goals.

Here is a real world example from the 49225 and 49425 PTZ, which are a 2MP and 4MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor. I bought the 4MP version first when I thought chasing MP was the answer.

The 49225 is a 2MP PTZ on the 1/2.8" sensor. It deems it has enough light at a 1/60 shutter so it stays in color:

Here is the 49425, which is the same camera as the 49225 except is a 4MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor as the 49225.

Here is a big issue you see with a double the resolution on the same size sensor - It deems that it does not have enough light at a 1/60 shutter so it goes to B/W with Infrared:

Personally I think the color one looks better. Look at all the leaves you see in the color image that you don't in the B/W image - these were taken at the same time.

No imagine the detail that is lost because of that.

 

[Flintstone61]

Don't tell Arjun about the woman walking on the sidewalk in this thread. He'll get over excited.

 

[leeeet]

60ms and 80ms shutter is WAAAAAYYYY TO SLOW. That is like a 1/16 and 1/12 shutter. You need 1/60 or faster of a shutter to start to get clean freeze frames.

Re-read what I posted. Nowhere did I say use a 60ms or 80ms shutter speed.

If that is how slow you need to run the shutter to get in color then you are not going to get color at night with that camera if you want clean images.

With a PTZ you can get away with a little slower shutter since the PTZ moves with the person, but you shouldn't be any higher than 30ms.

@bigredfish gave you good recommendations. a 4MP on the 1/2.8" sensor will not cut if for you. You need the ideal MP/sensor ratio I posted earlier to try to get clean shots.

Unless you buy a PTZ on the ideal MP/sensor ratio, you are just blowing money away again...


Someone once said here buy once, cry once! Better to spend a little more and get something that meets your goals.

Here is a real world example from the 49225 and 49425 PTZ, which are a 2MP and 4MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor. I bought the 4MP version first when I thought chasing MP was the answer.

The 49225 is a 2MP PTZ on the 1/2.8" sensor. It deems it has enough light at a 1/60 shutter so it stays in color:

Here is the 49425, which is the same camera as the 49225 except is a 4MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor as the 49225.

Here is a big issue you see with a double the resolution on the same size sensor - It deems that it does not have enough light at a 1/60 shutter so it goes to B/W with Infrared:

Personally I think the color one looks better. Look at all the leaves you see in the color image that you don't in the B/W image - these were taken at the same time.

No imagine the detail that is lost because of that.

any cameras you'd recommend personally?

 

[bigredfish]

I think you're a visual learner... 1/1.8" is BIGGER than 1/2.8"


4MP on a 1/2.8 sensor


4MP on a 1/1.8 sensor




And on video - go FULL SCREEN to really see the difference (*Folks, dont use a frickin smartphone to evaluate video)
4MP on a 1/2.8 sensor
View attachment HOA Entr_ch1_20201220200103_20201220200114.mp4

















4MP on a 1/1.8 sensor
View attachment HOA Entr_ch4_20201220200102_20201220200115.mp4

 

[EMPIRETECANDY]

You want the full color,so the night pics can't be too good even you have some street light. Currently though it has some improvement on color pics with 4K 1/1.8CMOS, but camera still need more light, so Try to turn the IR on.
Here is the best camera on the market, can make a refer, it's a 1/1.2cmos one. 4K. Even this super ptz without any extra light on it the color pics still not too good. But when add something light on, will become crazy sharp.
(170) Nighttime SDC845FG HNF Super 4K 1/1.2CMOS 45X PTZ By EmpireTech - YouTube

 

[wittaj]

any cameras you'd recommend personally?

Had I seen this before @bigredfish, I would recommend the cameras he suggested.

If night performance is your criteria, then you need to select a camera on the proper MP/sensor ratio. It needs to be green if you want nighttime performance.



Sensor sizing can confuse a lot of people LOL. Manufacturers probably have the sensor size the way they do to confuse people.

It is simple division:

1 divided by 3 equals 0.333

1 divided by 2.8 equals 0.357

Is a 1/2.8" sensor bigger than a 1/1.8" sensor? Most people say yes LOL. But it is a fraction, so the 1/1.8" sensor is the bigger of the two. A 1/2.8" sensor is smaller than a 1/2.7" sensor.

 

[leeeet]

lol yeah the sensor thing confused me at first but then I realized it after that 1/1.8 is actually bigger haha
I'm asian so you'd think I'd be good at that.

I'll look into the beast that you guys all talked about but man is that thing pricey haha

 

[wittaj]

LOL it confuses a lot of people. Even more so that the sensor is a rectangle LOL.

Get the 4MP version of the camera you have. It will be cheaper than the one you have now and will perform better. My example above between the 49225 (2MP) and 49425 (4MP) both on the same 1/2.8" sensor will be comparable to your current 8MP versus the 4MP on the same sensor.

Your camera needs double the light of the 4MP on the same sensor and that is why it struggles.

SD5A425GA-HNR - Dahua International

SD5A425GA-HNR

www.dahuasecurity.com

 

[bigredfish]

The one both Andy and I referenced with the big 1/1.2 sensor is close to $2500

I still think you can get a better/acceptable image. Review the settings I provided.

It will be darker than you show in your examples.

There’s a direct relationship between brightness of the image and the exposure setting. It’s the main struggle we all deal with at night.
Generally speaking, the faster the shutter, the less light gets in. But the faster shutter also is key to taming motion blur. Thus the trade off.

Try Manual 1/60 exposure. Leave everything else at 50 and then play with Gain, Iris, and DNR to get the best motion image with the least blur. (As you’ve seen, a pretty bright static image doesn’t necessarily translate to a good motion image, which is what we care about unless you can get the bad guys to stand still and face the camera for 10 seconds

 

[wittaj]

+1 above!

ANY camera can give a great static image if you slow the shutter down enough and crank up the gain enough. But then motion is crap.

We are not in photography class, we are in the need of capturing clean images with motion LOL. That is done with faster shutters and not artificially cranking up brightness with gain and gamma and other factors.

Sure you can up the brightness and gain and gamma to a point, but at some point it will counteract the faster shutter and result in motion ghost blurring.

So what if the image is a little dark. Again we want a clean capture of the perp, not nice bright static images to post to Facebook LOL.

It can be a shock at first to many. The image is so bright when we first get the camera and is on auto/default settings.

And then we tweak it to the settings we recommend here and are at shock at how dark the image is and we are disappointed.

But for most of us after a day or two with the darker image, we grow to accept it, especially after we see the captures with a person in motion.

 

[bigredfish]

OR you could take respected member @CanCuba ‘s method and install aviation runway lights and not have to worry about it

 

[CCTVCam]

80ms not 8 ms top. You're out by a factor of 10. Also, as others have said, gain below 50 at night. If you can't get a decent colour picture at night at those settings then the camera isn't suitable for colour at the light levels you have. Very few cameras can produce a good colour picture at night. I'm sure the image will clean up if you use IR and B&W with an 0-8ms shutter speed. Most of us running colour at night are on 1/1.2" sensors and even then they require some light to operate. The only commercially used ptz's on your size sensor producing decent colour at night are probably those on car lots etc where it's lit permanently with bright floodlighting all night. For a street scene with dim lighting, you're going to struggle on 1/1.8". @ 8mp. Less pixels more size.

 

[CCTVCam]

Just to add to what I I said above, check out the PTZ reviews on here. They should point you in the right direction.

I'm now going to try to explain a very dificult to grasp concept (I hope I have this right (no doubt others on here will flog me with a large branch if I get this wrong), and it will aid your undertsanding of why number of pixels isn't king besides the effect on low light visibility).

PTZ's have a lot of drawbacks but also 1 major advantage over fixed cameras and that is the number of pixels is less critical to getting a good picture because the definition of the pictue is defined by the resolution of the subject not the number of pixels in the overall frame. eg. take a person on the ptz at wide angle (or a wide angle fixed focal length camera) before the ptz zooms in, and who's far away and who takes up 1cm squared of the picture. For the sake of argument using nonsense numbers, lets say that 1cm is 10 pixels by 10 pixels. The person in the picture thus has a resolution of 100 pixels (10x10). Trying to enlarge the person in the image after the recording event, results in a poor picture because the pixel density is low - you only have 100 pixels and if you make it 10x larger in post recording, then you reduce the pixel density massively as magnifying it 10x makes the square 10x10 = 100cm2 but the captured resolution remains 100 pixels. So previously it was 100 pixels over 1cm squared, enlarged it becomes 100 pixels over 100cm squared. So pixel density drops from 100 pixels per cm squared to 1 pixel per cm squared, and that's why the subject cannot be identified by zooming into the recorded picture. With a fixed camera therefore, it's a compromise between resolution and sensor size because for a wide angle with a subject further away, the resolution and thus pixel density becomes the limiting factor in enlarging the picture to identify someone. Hence why people far from the camera in a wide angle shot, cannot be identified usually. If you add more resolution, (or a longer focal length to give more zoom), then you can capture people further away, but you pay for it with the limited field of view as the lens view is much narrower and extends further away from the camera, or in the case of resolution, you pay for it with low light visbility as more pixels on the same size sensor means less light captured at night and also the focus point of a fixed camera may also be a limiting factor irrespective of the number of pixels captured. So with more pixels, you can enlarge better but miss everything close up that's not centre of the picture, plus even then you probably won't be able to get a high enough resolution to compesate for the enlargement factor, you'll lose night visibility and irrespetcive of increased resolution, you may become limited by the focus point. eg if the fixed lens focuses at 16 feet and the subject is at 100 feet, irrespective of the number of pixels, they will be out of focus!

This is where the PTZ "cheats". It gives the best of both worlds. At wide angle you see everything, so don't need a huge resolution as it serves as an over view and very close up will have enough pixel density anyway - many are 2mp or 4mp for this reason. 2mp are for this reason, still widely used. However, when it spots someone far away and if the rules set trigger it, it will optically zoom into them. Optical zooming is different to the digital zooming (the enlargement) of the picture you do once it's recorded and viewing it back, in that you are effectively changing the lens on the camera to one that sees and focuses far away. In my example above, the 1cm square zoomed out is still 100 pixels. However, if the PTZ camera focuses on the subject and optically zooms in, it makes the subject fill the picture more. The resolution of the overall picture stays the same, but the resolution of the recorded square is increased as it fills more of the frame. So whereas before it might have been 1cm squared and 100 pixels, in the optical zoom if it now fills 90% of the frame and the frame contains 2mp (2,000 pixels). The subject ie the square now contains 90% of 2,000 = 1,800 pixels. So it not only appears larger but is sharper as it has a higher pixel density because it fills more of the frame. In addition, the optical zoom on a ptz adjusts focus to lock on the subject so the ptz is always at the perfect focal point whereas even if within the focal range of a fixed lens camera, the focus related sharpness may drop off towards the outer limits of the in focus range and will drop off outside this rapidly. So even though you may only 2mp, the same square subject which is 100 pixels AND unsharp because outside the focus range, may be sharp as perfectly focused on the PTZ as it adjusts the focus to match, and may be in this example 1,800 pixels in resolution on a 2mp sensor vs 100 pixels for eg an 8mp fixed wide angle camera where it is enlarged in viewing post. For that reason, you will see more successfuly at distance with eg a 2mp PTZ than an 8mp wide angle fixed. Mnay now use 4mp on ptz but again, watch sensor size if you want a good night picture. You may also have to pay a lot more to get colour at night as opposed to B&W and IR on the ptz.

Difficult to explain so hope I got that right and it doesn't confuse. Suffice to say, the short answer is, a fixed focal length camera has a useable range in which a subject can be in focus, have sufficient pixel density and be recognisable. Conversely, with a PTZ, even a smaller sensor will often produce a picture in which someone who's far away can be indentified if it triggers and optically zooms into them. PTZ's have their own issues which is why many choose fixed focal length and may use multiple cameras of different focal lengths covering the same area to give them both distant and near recognisability. However, it's beyond the scope of what I'm going to say here beyond that they can have issues locking onto the subject and following them or selecting the right subject without cues from another camera where multiple subjects are in view.

 

[leeeet]

oh wow good info! Thank you!

 

[fen88]

Hello everyone,
I also have a problem with a Dahua PTZ.

Model: DH-SD5A225XA-HNR

Fw: V2.812.0000032.2.R, Build Date: 2022-08-04

At night you can't see very well, in the video there is an incredible tingling sensation!

It is currently powered with its original power supply, but also with a PoE Switch gives the exact same problem.

I used a 52 meter long LAN cable, cat. 5e, ftp.

I tried with the settings you recommended, but nothing...

I contacted support, but no one can give me a solution, I don't know what to try anymore.

I attach some screenshots to help you understand how bad it looks!

Thanks to those who reply

PS. Whether using the default settings or yours, almost nothing changes.

 

[bigredfish]

Attach a video clip sample and your exposure settings