Software decoding w/ power video card?

[Zanthexter]

I'm bumping against the limits of what a 6th gen Core i5 system can manage with "hardware decoding". I've had to reduce framerates and disable BI features to keep CPU utilization reasonable.

Heat and the cost of electricity are non-issues for me. (I get that they are big issues for other people.)

Rather than replace the system with an i7 system, or wait and replace it with a 7th gen Kaby Lake i7 system, I'd like to pop in a $250 video card to handle decoding. The raw power of a mid-range gaming card implies a lot more potential decoding power than integrated graphics.

If BI is set to software decoding, will a gaming card be a viable option? What about two?

I do understand power, noise, heat, storage space, and efficiency are important to some people. They're not issues for in this case. Sufficient capability to run all cameras at max settings with all BI bells and whistles is.

 

[nayr]

BlueIris does not use any GFX hardware other than IntelQuickSync; a discrete graphics card will do nothing but draw more power, and perhaps disable the Intel Video hardware which could result in worse performance.. Gaming Video cards are a total waste of money in a BI NBR as they do almost nothing to improve performance.

 

[Zanthexter]

BlueIris does not use any GFX hardware other than IntelQuickSync; a discrete graphics card will do nothing but draw more power, and perhaps disable the Intel Video hardware which could result in worse performance.. Gaming Video cards are a total waste of money in a BI NBR as they do almost nothing to improve performance.

I understand that BlueIris doesn't directly support anything but integrated Intel graphics. Boggles my mind that such a decision was made, but I'm sure the developer had their reasons. Likely something was just easier/cheaper than going with NVidia or AMD support. Whatever the reason, when the only option is "buy an entirely new system" or "disable features and downgrade quality until the CPU stops melting" it's incredibly customer unfriendly.

So, I specifically asked whether a video card would support the software decoding setting, knowing that it would not support the hardware. My understanding is that video cards can often give a boost to software not specifically written for them. Just not as much as they would for software that was. Maybe it's just that they support specific codecs, in which case could installing them give things a boost along with a card?

So, back to my question. Has anyone out there actually tested BI on a system with enough H264 cameras to bog it down with and without a mid-range or better video card in it? I don't have $200-$300 lying around to buy one and test it myself. Hoping someone might have. I've seen a lot of people saying no, but I haven't seen anyone saying no that's actually given it a shot. So, I'm asking for more information.

And of course having purchased several BI licenses for systems that have over time had more cameras added and are now running capacity into problems, I've emailed support for all the good it probably won't do. As I said, I'm sure they have specific reasons.

As happy as I am with the software overall, I'm starting to think buying something else is going to be more practical than buying several i7 systems. (Well, telling folks I recommended BI to that they have to buy new systems. Sigh.)

 

[fenderman]

I understand that BlueIris doesn't directly support anything but integrated Intel graphics. Boggles my mind that such a decision was made, but I'm sure the developer had their reasons. Likely something was just easier/cheaper than going with NVidia or AMD support. Whatever the reason, when the only option is "buy an entirely new system" or "disable features and downgrade quality until the CPU stops melting" it's incredibly customer unfriendly.

So, I specifically asked whether a video card would support the software decoding setting, knowing that it would not support the hardware. My understanding is that video cards can often give a boost to software not specifically written for them. Just not as much as they would for software that was. Maybe it's just that they support specific codecs, in which case could installing them give things a boost along with a card?

So, back to my question. Has anyone out there actually tested BI on a system with enough H264 cameras to bog it down with and without a mid-range or better video card in it? I don't have $200-$300 lying around to buy one and test it myself. Hoping someone might have. I've seen a lot of people saying no, but I haven't seen anyone saying no that's actually given it a shot. So, I'm asking for more information.

And of course having purchased several BI licenses for systems that have over time had more cameras added and are now running capacity into problems, I've emailed support for all the good it probably won't do. As I said, I'm sure they have specific reasons.

As happy as I am with the software overall, I'm starting to think buying something else is going to be more practical than buying several i7 systems. (Well, telling folks I recommended BI to that they have to buy new systems. Sigh.)

Blue iris is developed by one person. There is no they. I would assume choices have to be made. In an email to me early on when I questioned about HA, he indicated that intel had a team that offered much more support than nvidia did. Most folks have intel hd graphics and its cheaper to run than dedicated cards as well as the fact that lots of folks use slim systems that cannot accommodate a discrete card. You purchased an under powered system for your application - or its not optimally setup. If you dont want to spend the money on better hardware, then look at other vms options...be prepared to pay through the nose and/or lose some functionality.
How many cameras and what resolution are your running that it is bogging down your system. You can buy an i7-6700 for 500...then use this system in another application. An nvidia card may be helpful if you are displaying lots of cams but only if you can simultaneously run intel hd, which is possible with some motherboards...@bp2008 has a thread in it.

 

[Zanthexter]

Blue iris is developed by one person. There is no they. I would assume choices have to be made. In an email to me early on when I questioned about HA, he indicated that intel had a team that offered much more support than nvidia did. Most folks have intel hd graphics and its cheaper to run than dedicated cards as well as the fact that lots of folks use slim systems that cannot accommodate a discrete card. You purchased an under powered system for your application - or its not optimally setup. If you dont want to spend the money on better hardware, then look at other vms options...be prepared to pay through the nose and/or lose some functionality.
How many cameras and what resolution are your running that it is bogging down your system. You can buy an i7-6700 for 500...then use this system in another application. An nvidia card may be helpful if you are displaying lots of cams but only if you can simultaneously run intel hd, which is possible with some motherboards...@bp2008 has a thread in it.

Well, I guess you are telling me other people have in fact tried good video cards and gotten no significant results. That's disappointing.

I can see why he'd go with the "more support" option. But the problem is that it's not able to scale to more powerful systems without "optimizing", which just means dropping resolution, frame rates, and functionality. Is it even possible to build a BlueIris system that'd support 10 2k cameras at 30FPS? (Or the system I'm frustrated with, 8 720p, 6 1080p, and 2 2k, at 30FPS instead of 10?)

"You don't need that" isn't the right answer for all situations. And "buy a new system" sure as hell isn't when a $200 video card is half or a third the cost. More so when that video card is a lot more powerful.

He had his reasons and all, and likely "low power use, low resolution, low FPS" was the norm at the time. But he's crippled the software for high power, high resolution, high FPS use as a result.

I guess for now, live with a kneecapped system. Longer term, I guess it's time to start looking for a different product :/ I'm just disappointed I guess. Overall I'm quite happy with BI. But as we've added more cameras, and better quality ones, we're hitting the practical limits of his decision.

 

[nayr]

you can get a $400 PC that can handle well over a dozen 1080p cameras at very little load, which results in a fraction of the power consumption.. once you have hardware acceleration its gravy.

Ive seen 64 camera blueiris systems; sure not running near 30fps but you dont need more than 15-20 usually.

to handle HD video you need hardware acceleration; the video is far too compressed for even the fastest cpu's to do all by them selves.. I can get 16 1080p streams going through a RaspberryPi using little cpu because of h264 hardware acceleration.

Gaming cards suck up far too much power to be used in a NVR thats always loaded 24/7/365, the onboard graphics is more than enough to get the job done.

You need to rethink your strategy and change your perspective.. The only problem here is your approach.

 

[Zanthexter]

You need to rethink your strategy and change your perspective.. The only problem here is your approach.

The problem is that my "approach" is that I want to record at the maximum possible frame rates and quality with all bells and whistles in use. I couldn't care less about power, noise, or heat because the systems are in loud, noisy, but thankfully air conditioned restaurants. Different people, different priorities. I do understand some people do have issues with power consumption, heat, noise, and so on. I also understand that many people don't see the point of 4k cameras at 30FPS. That's fine, for them, their situation, their applications.

Thread after thread instructs people to disable this or that. That's not a problem with "approach", that's a problem with the software being limited by the hardware. That it even needs this level of undocumented fiddling to change things away from the defaults is a problem.

If the onboard graphics were sufficient to get the job done, thread after thread wouldn't be "my stuff is slow" with "turn off this and that to get it working adequately" as the reply.

I'm just frustrated. And I want to say thank you for taking the time to reply. I'm venting a bit too much I guess, and I'll just accept that it is what it is and make do for now.

 

[nayr]

you mistake framerate for quality; higher framerate does not provide any additional quality at all.. the only need for high framerate is if your working with very fast moving subjects like sporting events and vehicles.. even then its just a minimal improvement in smoothness, still provides zero additional image quality.

otherwords its just wasted resources.. espically in a restaurant environment. Youtube used to be 15FPS max for eons and nobody noticed.

You want to get the most out of your cameras without the hardware to support it; your going to have to compromise something or provide adequate resources for the task you desire.

 

[Zanthexter]

you mistake framerate for quality; higher framerate does not provide any additional quality at all.. the only need for high framerate is if your working with very fast moving subjects like sporting events and vehicles.

otherwords its just wasted resources.. espically in a restaurant environment.

Wasting resources is a complete non-issue in this situation. In other situations, I understand that it's important. In this one, performance is what matters.

We've had issues with sexual harassment, card skimming, register dipping, "lost card" fraud, and a couple of robberies. Based on those issues, including fast moving robbers, higher frame rates were deemed desirable. Sometimes things can happen pretty fast or are partially obscured by the camera angle with only brief moments of visibility. For example watching someone making change from the cash drawer. We'd also like the parking lot cameras to be able to snag license plates further away while vehicles are moving faster. (right now, we just cover the parking spaces near the entrance) The other locations aren't as bad, but none are nice sit down places you'd take the wife for your anniversary.

Also, I understand that from a "professional standpoint" impressing your boss probably doesn't rank high. But from a "I work for someone else" standpoint the boss's opinion matters. If it gets my mortgage paid, it's a resource well spent. You are free to disagree, but I still need to pay my mortgage. All more or less saying that different situations benefit from different approaches. $100 a year in wasted electricity is invisible, $100 more for a computer is not.

Anyway, this horse is beat to death I guess. I just need to start looking around at other software before he wants to bump the camera quality up or add more. Thanks for your time.

 

[nayr]

XProtect® Essential | Milestone Systems

that will run on your hardware and is free for up to 8 cameras; but it'll cost you $400/yr for 10 cameras.. good luck finding anything that performs better for a budget.

 

[fenderman]

Well, I guess you are telling me other people have in fact tried good video cards and gotten no significant results. That's disappointing.

I can see why he'd go with the "more support" option. But the problem is that it's not able to scale to more powerful systems without "optimizing", which just means dropping resolution, frame rates, and functionality. Is it even possible to build a BlueIris system that'd support 10 2k cameras at 30FPS? (Or the system I'm frustrated with, 8 720p, 6 1080p, and 2 2k, at 30FPS instead of 10?)

"You don't need that" isn't the right answer for all situations. And "buy a new system" sure as hell isn't when a $200 video card is half or a third the cost. More so when that video card is a lot more powerful.

He had his reasons and all, and likely "low power use, low resolution, low FPS" was the norm at the time. But he's crippled the software for high power, high resolution, high FPS use as a result.

I guess for now, live with a kneecapped system. Longer term, I guess it's time to start looking for a different product :/ I'm just disappointed I guess. Overall I'm quite happy with BI. But as we've added more cameras, and better quality ones, we're hitting the practical limits of his decision.

The software is perfectly tailored to the user base which is small home/small business. Most uses can run all the cameras they will ever need on a 300 dollar machine. in fact you can run 10 2k cameras on a 300 dollar machine...do you know that most cameras dont even support 30fps at their highest resolution? Do you know why? Because its absolutely unnecessary in your situation -even the cash drawer example, i dont think you understand what 15fps is. Its gives you ZERO benefit and causes you to have to increase the bitrate so you have less storage capacity. There are plenty of folks here who run 30 cameras at 1080p on an i7-haswell/skylake at 15fps...you can probably run it at the cameras max of 20 with no issues as well. Let us know when you find better software.
If you want to impress you boss tell him how you saved him 1000+ dollars. That is what you will have to pay for say milestone 10 licenses of you want basic features like two way audio or archive to nas. Dont forget that updates are only available for 90 days of the 50 dollar per camera license and 1 year on the 100 per camera license.
Its funny how you dont care about the wasted electricity costs but do about the computer...here is a suggestion, explain that to your boss. If money is no object then yeah, go with an all avigilon system, he will be very happy and pleased. I can put you in touch with an avigilon dealer.
For the rest of us we are please to have 60 dollar software that does everything we need and more without paying outlandish per camera fees.