Solar - Who's got it?

[IReallyLikePizza2]

I'm continuing my overreaction of the giant clusterfuck of the electric grid issue that the energy capitol of the world just had when it got a little chilly

27Kw Generator incoming, but now I'm looking at solar too. Probably going to go with the PWRCell from Generac for the battery and inverter, and in two months they will apparently have something that will interact with the generator as well as the battery. I'm very interested to see how this turns out, but in the meantime I can get my solar setup figured out

• Google says I have 1,640 hours of usable sunlight per year
• Google says I have 1,991 sq feet available for solar panels
• My historical usage is pretty high

Opinions?

 

[mikeynags]

27KW is really huge. What fuel you planning to run it on?


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[IReallyLikePizza2]

Whole discussion over here - Natural Gas Generators

Natural gas, and it actually does 25kw on NG, and 27kw on LP

Funnily enough, its a LOT more efficient than my neighbors 22kw air cooled unit. Running at 50% which is 12.5kw, it uses less fuel than his on 50% which is 9.5Kw. I wanted the headroom for if I get an electric car and there is a gasoline shortage during a hurricane, I could easily charge up a car no issue like nothing happened

 

[mikeynags]

As long as you don’t run into any of those low gas pressure issues they had in Texas during that winter storm. Sounds like it will be loading at 50%.


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[tigerwillow1]

I've got 2 separate solar systems. One is grid tied with battery backup using Outback hardware, a ~12 kWh AGM battery bank, and about 4.2 kW of panels. It's what's called a DC coupled system in that the charge controller steps the panel output to the battery voltage, and the inverter is battery voltage DC input. The efficiency of this system is about 80% to 85%, comparing the DC energy output of the panels to the AC energy output of the inverter.

The other system is a traditional grid-tie only system, about 4.0 kW of panels. It uses individual panel microinverters and can achieve efficiency around 95%.

The battery back system produces about 5,200 kWh per year, around 250 a month in the winter and 650 a month in summer, in Oregon. The grid tie system produces about 5,900 kWh a year, 300 in a winter month and 700 in a summer month. The two arrays are pointed different directions and have different tilts so it's not a fair apples-to-apples comparison. The PV watts calculator (link below) estimated about 5,500 kWh for the battery backed system, so it's doing a bit better than that. The estimate for the grid tie system was 4,850 kWh a year, so it's doing a lot better. An AC coupled system can give the best of both worlds, with the higher efficiency of a grid-tie-only system and battery backup. They weren't around when I had my battery backed system installed.

If you want a second opinion on what google is saying, try the PVWatts calculator at PVWatts . It let's you experiment with different array sizes and positioning.

 

[IReallyLikePizza2]

Very interesting, thanks for that link

A company is coming out tomorrow to take a look at my house/roof

 

[randytsuch]

Nice link, thanks.

I started looking a solar too. I signed up with energysage.com, and was sent 7 quotes.
The nice think about energysage is they don't give out your email. So energysage can send you emails, but the companies that estimated can't.
They can only send messages through energysage.

Last year, I used just under 10,000 kWh and they have been getting quoted systems from 6.3 to 7.2 kw. From that calculator, I can go with for the smaller end of things.
FWIW, companies all quoted either Panasonic or Rec panels. They all quoted Enphase IQ7 microinverters, with one per panel.

My average electricity cost is around 25 cents/kWh, and it seems worthwhile to go solar.

Randy

 

[IReallyLikePizza2]

I just signed the papers, unless there was funny math, it seems stupid not to do it

Loan amount $130 a month with a $-12 electric bill. My usual bill is $100-130 in winter and $260ish in summer

System size is 109% of my usage, no battery as all the options don't make sense to me (And I'll have a giant 27kw Generator)

 

[Sparky19053]

I hope you are looking at a purchased solar systems and not a lease. Some of these deals make it very difficult to sell you home later. Buyer beware there are a lot of shady deals out there.

 

[IReallyLikePizza2]

Its financed for 25 years at 0.99% interest with no early payment penalty

 

[IReallyLikePizza2]

Ran into some hiccups

Their design doesn't show all the vents on my roof, so I think their placement might be off. I'll see what they say, and their usage chart shows numbers I can't find, not too sure where they got them. They must be pretty old

I worked it out and instead of 109%, I'd be at 101%. They are calling me today to figure things out. Overall it still works out financially, but I'm a little annoyed they screwed up these two pieces

 

[biggen]

How does insurance work? Say you have a hurricane that damages your roof/panels? Are your panels automatically covered under your existing windstorm insurance policy? Or do you specifically have to add a rider to cover the cost of the panels? Or is it considered an "attached structure" which will have specific lower coverage limits? For example, my expensive vinyl fence is considered an "attached structure" which has coverage limits of only $5000 even though it costs well in excess of that. I went through that with Hurricane Michael as did everyone in my neighborhood.

When is the payoff they quoted you where the panels will be paid for and now putting money back in your pocket? I've always wondered how that is handled since roofs have limited life spans. 20 years is about the maximum you can expect out of asphalt roofs unless a hurricane gets it first. I'm 8 years into my existing roof so if the payoff is more than 12 years away I'm not sure it makes sense since I'd have to incur costs again later (labor costs) to take the panels down and then put the panels back up again on the new roof. If I'm not paid off by then, then I'll have to add the costs of the labor to the existing solar loan amount which stretches the payout even further into the future.

And what about roof leakage from all the new nail holes they are putting through your roof? I'm assuming they are responsible for that if they should incur? A year or two down the road if your roof leaks under a panel, will they be around to fix it assuming you can prove they caused it? Or will you have to file an insurance claim? I see these solar panel companies popping up overnight in strip malls like carnivals and vape shops but I'm concerned about their longevity. Are they really interested in staying in an area for multiple years building up a clientele, or are they just chasing customers from town to town and pickup their tent stakes every year to go where the new money is?

Sorry for all the questions. The logistics of panels on roofs seem daunting.

 

[DsineR]

Last year, I used just under 10,000 kWh and they have been getting quoted systems from 6.3 to 7.2 kw. From that calculator, I can go with for the smaller end of things.
FWIW, companies all quoted either Panasonic or Rec panels. They all quoted Enphase IQ7 microinverters, with one per panel.

Enphase microinverters are great! Ensure you also get the Envoy which allows you to monitor all details of your system.
I have LG panels, but whatever brand you decide to buy make sure it's the latest & greatest model. Panels are constantly improving their efficiency & production, even a percent or two makes a difference over the life of your system.

 

[catcamstar]

Couple of thoughts:
- optimize your solar panel installation (orientation/angle) if you can : flat roofs are ideal, however with tilted roofs, you can optimise (for example) East-West orientations:

• don't focus on "max (peak) power production": instead of putting 10 panels pure south, the surplus to have 8 West + 8 East but giving you already a continuous production of couple of 100Wh at 8AM and 8PM instead of having to wait till 10AM might come in more handy
• take into account regulatory rules (eg in Belgium - Europe), you have to stick to (at first hand stupid) rules: less than 5kWh production is "ok", for 5kWh+ you have to take extra precautions (eg tri-phase invertor and stuff).
• also, many people forget: for the DC part to work, you NEED AC power. So you do need a generator to "load" the invertor to make him work, however, you'll have to put some intelligence (and a battery comes in handy) to store the surplus production and fall in when in need of more vitamins.
• as written above, I can support microinvertors especially when chimey/trees are casting shadows. Production is increased with 7-10% according to literature.

Much more complicated than cameras

 

[DsineR]

How does insurance work? Say you have a hurricane that damages your roof/panels? Are your panels automatically covered under your existing windstorm insurance policy? Or do you specifically have to add a rider to cover the cost of the panels? Or is it considered an "attached structure" which will have specific lower coverage limits? For example, my expensive vinyl fence is considered an "attached structure" which has coverage limits of only $5000 even though it costs well in excess of that. I went through that with Hurricane Michael as did everyone in my neighborhood.

When is the payoff they quoted you where the panels will be paid for and now putting money back in your pocket? I've always wondered how that is handled since roofs have limited life spans. 20 years is about the maximum you can expect out of asphalt roofs unless a hurricane gets it first. I'm 8 years into my existing roof so if the payoff is more than 12 years away I'm not sure it makes sense since I'd have to incur costs again later (labor costs) to take the panels down and then put the panels back up again on the new roof. If I'm not paid off by then, then I'll have to add the costs of the labor to the existing solar loan amount which stretches the payout even further into the future.

And what about roof leakage from all the new nail holes they are putting through your roof? I'm assuming they are responsible for that if they should incur? A year or two down the road if your roof leaks under a panel, will they be around to fix it assuming you can prove they caused it? Or will you have to file an insurance claim? I see these solar panel companies popping up overnight in strip malls like carnivals and vape shops but I'm concerned about their longevity. Are they really interested in staying in an area for multiple years building up a clientele, or are they just chasing customers from town to town and pickup their tent stakes every year to go where the new money is?

Sorry for all the questions. The logistics of panels on roofs seem daunting.

Solar panels are considered a permanent attachment to your property, and are covered under most home owners policy.
Very easy to calculate your ROI for solar panels - lots of sites with this info. My break even is 7yrs, average is closer to 8yrs. Of course number of panels & your usage are the variables.
Like any contractor, do your background research.
My contractor warrants all labor & materials for 15yrs - including roof leakage.

 

[tigerwillow1]

Ensure you also get the Envoy which allows you to monitor all details of your system.

I agree with getting the Envoy, but it does not let you monitor all the details of your system. Enphase intentionally restricts the home owner from looking at individual panel data on the excuse that it generates too many support calls from uneducated homeowners. Only the installer is able to access the per-panel production information. I plug my envoy in once or twice a year to see that the panel count is correct. I installed a separate wattmeter in the garage that gives me a petty good sense of the health of the system without having to use the dinky LCD display on the Envoy or go through the web page hoops.

Update on edit: The statement about individual panel data is incorrect. More info in posts below.

 

[DsineR]

I agree with getting the Envoy, but it does not let you monitor all the details of your system. Enphase intentionally restricts the home owner from looking at individual panel data on the excuse that it generates too many support calls from uneducated homeowners. Only the installer is able to access the per-panel production information. I plug my envoy in once or twice a year to see that the panel count is correct. I installed a separate wattmeter in the garage that gives me a petty good sense of the health of the system without having to use the dinky LCD display on the Envoy or go through the web page hoops.

Not true, here's my individual panel production for the month of Feb...

 

[tigerwillow1]

Not true, here's my individual panel production for the month of Feb...

Maybe they've had a change of heart. I'll have to plug in my Envoy and see.

 

[DsineR]

Yes - check it out, lots of info available. I use this for monitoring via browser, Enlighten also have an app.
Here's one of many views - showing the rooftop panel layout & arrays, current daily production per panel.

 

[randytsuch]

Enphase microinverters are great! Ensure you also get the Envoy which allows you to monitor all details of your system.
I have LG panels, but whatever brand you decide to buy make sure it's the latest & greatest model. Panels are constantly improving their efficiency & production, even a percent or two makes a difference over the life of your system.

Can I ask who you used to install?

I've been reading some threads at solarpaneltalk, and they stress to use a good installer that's been around for a while.

Randy