Solar - Who's got it?

[IReallyLikePizza2]

Not sure what you mean, the IRS will cut me a check for around $14k next year. The solar credit is widely used

I would love to go full solar, but the batteries simply don't make sense. if I get 4 Tesla power walls I'd be looking at around $35,000 AFTER the tax credit. That will get me 20kw of power delivery (54kwh stored) less than my generator, and enough battery capacity to run my AC for a whopping 11 hours

Sure, it will recharge in the morning, but it would be super easy on a hot day to run the AC plus a lot of other appliances and end up coming up short before the sun comes back up. Just not quite there yet

 

[tech101]

Speaking of tesla power walls hopefully in future the price will drop for the power wall, that is hopefully once the 4680 cells start to get into the Power wall. But that will be 3-5 years at least if/when that happens...

 

[IReallyLikePizza2]

I'd love it if the state if Texas would get some fund together where they heavily subsidize batteries, which the power company can then control and to ease peak times, would have been a huge help recently

There is a state that is doing this, can't remember if its CA or not

 

[tech101]

I know the power company here which we have has signed up with Tesla to build energy storage system.

Page Not Found

www.pge.com

 

[IReallyLikePizza2]

I just found it, this was it

ConnectedSolutions | National Grid

Whether you are a homeowner or run a small business, ConnectedSolutions works with connected devices to reduce electric use during periods of high energy demand. Earn a $20 instant incentive, and a $25 annual incentive for every thermostat connected to a central air conditioner.

www.nationalgridus.com

I'd for sure do that if they had it here!


Summer incentive rate: $400 per kW performed per summer

 

[Teken]

Tax credit is just another scam. The price for solar will decrease and quality will improve down the road.
If I were you I would go full on solar and not rely on state electricity any more.

I don't believe a tax credit could be seen as a scam vs it being an incentive to those financially capable of taking advantage of the same. I don't want to get into too much politics as discussions will quickly turn ugly fast. Regardless, if all else were even and the prices for solar could be purchased on a large scale, installed, and commissioned under $5 ~ $10K for all.

It would make sense for everyone install the same to help not only the home owner but the grid.

As of this writing battery storage has a long way to go where it makes financial sense to those on a limited budget. More specifically purchasing a off the shelf solution like Tesla, Generac, etc. Going third party is still a better choice where money is the issue as it allows you to use any battery chemistry, type, and capacity. If something breaks you just replace that component or batter cell. That isn't the case with Tesla / Generac / Others as their systems are tied to their systems using proprietary software & hardware.

From my bird cat seat having watched and done the same my views are the Chinese will continue to open up this market up for the general masses. Looking at what consumer offerings are present now based on price alone. I figure its going to be another 5-7 years before we see battery storage under $2K for 5-6 KWH which isn't tied to a proprietary system.

 

[tigerwillow1]

It would make sense for everyone install the same to help not only the home owner but the grid.

I disagree about helping the grid. The grid will someday be called upon to supply full demand. In the meantime, every solar installation has reduced the revenue available to maintain the grid. No problem is foreseen while things hum along smoothly. Then one cold day all the panels will get covered with snow while the furnaces and water heaters are running, and "boom" goes the grid. What just happened with the Texas grid didn't have the same cause, yet it's a valid example. The grid became dependent on a source that could be shut down by the weather, while some of the sources that could have been weather-proofed weren't. In the case of widespread home solar, the distribution system will be a problem. At the extreme, it will need to be maintained to supply full peak demand to everybody, while receiving no funds for it.

 

[DsineR]

In the case of widespread home solar, the distribution system will be a problem. At the extreme, it will need to be maintained to supply full peak demand to everybody, while receiving no funds for it.

In the US, solar power accounts for less than 2% of electricity. Far from widespread, and not impacting the overpriced power companies.
Thankfully solar is growing, and power companies need to start working with solar and not against - it's in their best interest.
Unless you are totally disconnected from the grid, you are still charged a 'service fee'. The power company still gets their piece.

 

[rahhazar]

I don't believe a tax credit could be seen as a scam vs it being an incentive to those financially capable of taking advantage of the same. I don't want to get into too much politics as discussions will quickly turn ugly fast. Regardless, if all else were even and the prices for solar could be purchased on a large scale, installed, and commissioned under $5 ~ $10K for all.

It would make sense for everyone install the same to help not only the home owner but the grid.

As of this writing battery storage has a long way to go where it makes financial sense to those on a limited budget. More specifically purchasing a off the shelf solution like Tesla, Generac, etc. Going third party is still a better choice where money is the issue as it allows you to use any battery chemistry, type, and capacity. If something breaks you just replace that component or batter cell. That isn't the case with Tesla / Generac / Others as their systems are tied to their systems using proprietary software & hardware.

From my bird cat seat having watched and done the same my views are the Chinese will continue to open up this market up for the general masses. Looking at what consumer offerings are present now based on price alone. I figure its going to be another 5-7 years before we see battery storage under $2K for 5-6 KWH which isn't tied to a proprietary system.

It was the same story back when I was in Australia. The government started paying of people who were giving electricity out to help the grid and later decided not to get electricity from the people and pay them since it was slashing tax revenue of Melbourne.
The price of solar decreases quarterly and so does the price for batteries. Either use the tax credit now or get the solar cheaper down the road is the same. Getting a new roof done with having panels on will increase the cost of labor and you will need to add an electrician for the job.

a gas generator will do the job for the days when the grid is not working.

 

[Teken]

I disagree about helping the grid. The grid will someday be called upon to supply full demand. In the meantime, every solar installation has reduced the revenue available to maintain the grid. No problem is foreseen while things hum along smoothly. Then one cold day all the panels will get covered with snow while the furnaces and water heaters are running, and "boom" goes the grid. What just happened with the Texas grid didn't have the same cause, yet it's a valid example. The grid became dependent on a source that could be shut down by the weather, while some of the sources that could have been weather-proofed weren't. In the case of widespread home solar, the distribution system will be a problem. At the extreme, it will need to be maintained to supply full peak demand to everybody, while receiving no funds for it.

Perhaps I should expand upon my thoughts about helping the grid. This may be similar or not to what Elon Musk has envisioned for such a consumer grid tied power supply.

Lets say there are two neighborhoods called zone 1 & zone 2 all connected to the grid each zone has 100 homes . . . Zone 2 all have homes with battery storage and is capable of feeding the grid (back feeding) if called upon.

Power is lost to zone 1 because a tree fell down on a main feeder. Zone 2 could be called upon to send power to zone 1 because they are after the main feeder and on the same street. Another example is instead of rolling black outs due to the inability of the grid to provide enough power to satisfy the demand. Zone 2 could be called upon to make up the difference should it be needed.

Obviously, this 10K over view is very much simplified but the basic premise makes sense if resiliency, backup, and edge power is the goal.

Now, if the discussion is about Profit before People there's no hope for anyone . . .

 

[rahhazar]

Perhaps I should expand upon my thoughts about helping the grid. This may be similar or not to what Elon Musk has envisioned for such a consumer grid tied power supply.

Lets say there are two neighborhoods called zone 1 & zone 2 all connected to the grid each zone has 100 homes . . . Zone 2 all have homes with battery storage and is capable of feeding the grid (back feeding) if called upon.

Power is lost to zone 1 because a tree fell down on a main feeder. Zone 2 could be called upon to send power to zone 1 because they are after the main feeder and on the same street. Another example is instead of rolling black outs due to the inability of the grid to provide enough power to satisfy the demand. Zone 2 could be called upon to make up the difference should it be needed.

Obviously, this 10K over view is very much simplified but the basic premise makes sense if resiliency, backup, and edge power is the goal.

Now, if the discussion is about Profit before People there's no hope for anyone . . .

Ofc the profit before people in any case scenario. If the grid is not make any money well it will shut down either it will be put to sleep or stop working if no maintenance is done. Same as this website. No one will fix bugs and will die eventually.
I don’t think most people will be thinking of spending 10k to help people.

 

[sebastiantombs]

I think we all saw a lesson of what relying on solar can do with what happened in Texas. While solar wasn't the primary cause, or maybe it was, it is just not reliable enough when the chips are down and the clouds cover the sun. The utilities will still need to maintain generation capacity to handle the full load for a long time. Keep in mind starting up a 1,000 megawatt generator is a "tad" more involved than setting the choke, turning on the fuel and hitting a start button, so they need to be fired and on line well in advance of any possible problem.

 

[tigerwillow1]

you are still charged a 'service fee'. The power company still gets their piece.

It's difficult to generalize worth every state and power company having a different billing structure and I can only use my own as an example. My fixed service fee is 9.50 a month. When I get billed for the little electricity I use in the winter, it's pretty close to 50-50 for the actual power cost and the "delivery charge". One definition I found for the delivery charge is: "The ‘Delivery Charge’ is a fee charged to deliver the electricity - which may include things like telephone poles, transformers, power lines, utility meter, etc. ". I'm sometimes "net zero" for a full year, which means I'm paying nothing at all for power lines, transformers, etc. There's a transformer dedicated to my house. The power company inspects it once a year, sometimes gets a tree trimming crew out, and will replace it if it malfunctions. My service fee pays for none of this, the other ratepayers do. As more and more solar goes in, the finances go the same way that other welfare programs are going, with more people on the receiving and and less on the paying end. My total annual usage is about 13,000 kWh. Without solar the power company would be getting about $650 a year in delivery charge. Somebody else is paying that instead, and the $144 annual service fee obviously can't cover it.

 

[Teken]

Ofc the profit before people in any case scenario. If the grid is not make any money well it will shut down either it will be put to sleep or stop working if no maintenance is done. Same as this website. No one will fix bugs and will die eventually.
I don’t think most people will be thinking of spending 10k to help people.

That's true but only so far as the whole concept of helping others as a large community isn't the norm in North America. Almost everyone can understand supply and demand along with services that are based on a collective pool. The larger the pool of people the smaller the cost to each person is for X service / product.

Like I said getting politico is a fine line when discussing the same.

Some are in favor of what many call Nanny States vs Stand on your own . . .

I personally come from a time where everyone stood on their own two feet and made things happen. I didn't need or ask for a handout to get where I am today and hope for the future. Having said this, there are some things which just need to be based on a pool or collective. Think education, depending upon where you live in the world many schools are funded directly through taxes paid by its citizens. Nobody is going to be able to single handily build a school, pay for a teacher, and everything else that comes with a basic grade 12 education.

This obviously goes with the same principle of infrastructure where a pool of citizens fund the building of roads, bridges, water, sewer, etc.

Perhaps one day this same view could be held for homes to be designed and built with the same concept of pooling energy storage. I am not a fan of Government in my life but its hard to argue that there isn't very many large scale projects that could exist without some larger entity like Government. All of this really comes down to whether people see value in working as a collective pool like you see in some cultures.

Those who have grown up and been around ethnic groups like Hutterites / Amish like I have. Know first hand how these people live and breath Work as a group and accomplish great things. Unlike the Amish who (generally speaking) use old school techniques and try very hard to not adopt technology. The Hutterite people embrace the same and have taken it to the Nth degree of self reliance.

All of these colonies purposely send their children to all manner of schooling . . .

To what end???

To allow them to have a hand and foot in what ever industry or knowledge base that will help the colony as a whole. It doesn't matter if its a trade they have someone in that trade. It doesn't matter if its a business acumen say accounting, banking, science, they have someone in that field.

When the rest of the world is out of power these people don't even bat an eye because they literally grow their own food that can feed hundreds of thousands as they are primarily farmers in whatever field from cattle, hog, chicken, to every known grain / vegetable.

Imagine if we as a pool of people had the vision to build the next generation of cities that incorporated energy storage as base one. The NEC / CEC was created to insure there was some basic semblance of electrical safety, standards, norms, etc. Building codes were created for the same reason to ensure the most basic standards were present and met.

Maybe the next generation of codes will mandate energy storage . . .

All of the above takes vision and making a business case to the masses where it makes sense. I don't think very many will raise their hand if the Government said this is a great concept lets raise taxes on everyone by 5%! The reality is everyone here and around the world knows there is lots of waste in Government and if some of these fat cats trimmed the fat there would be very little need to increase taxes. This really comes down to people being honest about where they are and where they want to be in the future!

Every year in my neck of the woods there are thousands of people who have so called lake front property. Whelps, we live in a flood zone and each year these same people get flooded! Each year the tax payers have to bail these same people out and rebuild their homes?!?! The reality is these people went in knowing this yet cry and have their hands open like a beggar every year!

My view is to tell them you have two choices move or stay . . .

If you move no worries, you stay well suffer the consequences but no one is going to bail you out because you're too stupid to live.

 

[IReallyLikePizza2]

I disagree about helping the grid. The grid will someday be called upon to supply full demand. In the meantime, every solar installation has reduced the revenue available to maintain the grid. No problem is foreseen while things hum along smoothly. Then one cold day all the panels will get covered with snow while the furnaces and water heaters are running, and "boom" goes the grid. What just happened with the Texas grid didn't have the same cause, yet it's a valid example. The grid became dependent on a source that could be shut down by the weather, while some of the sources that could have been weather-proofed weren't. In the case of widespread home solar, the distribution system will be a problem. At the extreme, it will need to be maintained to supply full peak demand to everybody, while receiving no funds for it.

I personally disagree with most of this. The Texas grid is FLUSH with cash, the issue is these companies are all private, and so they don't care about the people, they are about maximizing profits. They have been making bank this entire time, why would they change?

Personally, I don't think we should be rewarding them with more money... They have a ton of that, and they can't even keep the lights on when it gets a little bit chilly. the whole thing is a sham.

Also, even in this extreme cold, the panels would not have been covered with snow, so thats not a concern down here

For your last comment about no funds, you know that BILLIONS of dollars of tax goes into the grid, as well as electric transmission fees, right? There is a ton of money going into the grid from every person who has solar, even if they are getting a check from the utility every month

I am not worried about disrupting the profits of random companies that are not even based in the USA, let alone Texas. I'm working towards separating myself completely, a few more years of battery enhancement and I won't need the power grid, period

Maybe not a popular opinion, but the grid should be a publicly run operation by the state, not looking for profits. Their main focus should be getting power to homes at a reasonable price, with good reliability. I lived in the UK for 18 years, and not once (Like, literally not once) did I have a power outage. Yet here in the "eNeRgY CaPiToL Of tHe wOrLd" we give companies in Australia (???????) millions of dollars in profit a year and when it gets cold, people die from freezing in their own house

 

[rahhazar]

I personally disagree with most of this. The Texas grid is FLUSH with cash, the issue is these companies are all private, and so they don't care about the people, they are about maximizing profits. They have been making bank this entire time, why would they change?

Personally, I don't think we should be rewarding them with more money... They have a ton of that, and they can't even keep the lights on when it gets a little bit chilly. the whole thing is a sham.

Also, even in this extreme cold, the panels would not have been covered with snow, so thats not a concern down here

For your last comment about no funds, you know that BILLIONS of dollars of tax goes into the grid, as well as electric transmission fees, right? There is a ton of money going into the grid from every person who has solar, even if they are getting a check from the utility every month

I am not worried about disrupting the profits of random companies that are not even based in the USA, let alone Texas. I'm working towards separating myself completely, a few more years of battery enhancement and I won't need the power grid, period

Maybe not a popular opinion, but the grid should be a publicly run operation by the state, not looking for profits. Their main focus should be getting power to homes at a reasonable price, with good reliability. I lived in the UK for 18 years, and not once (Like, literally not once) did I have a power outage. Yet here in the "eNeRgY CaPiToL Of tHe wOrLd" we give companies in Australia (???????) millions of dollars in profit a year and when it gets cold, people die from freezing in their own house

View attachment 84670

I have a house back home (Afghanistan) that runs on solar. Bought 8 military batteries which were widely available in 2010. The batteries are in perfect condition and very happy with my power.

 

[fenderman]

Maybe not a popular opinion, but the grid should be a publicly run operation by the state, not looking for profits. Their main focus should be getting power to homes at a reasonable price, with good reliability. I lived in the UK for 18 years, and not once (Like, literally not once) did I have a power outage. Yet here in the "eNeRgY CaPiToL Of tHe wOrLd" we give companies in Australia (???????) millions of dollars in profit a year and when it gets cold, people die from freezing in their own house

That is a terrible idea. A privately run company can be held accountable. A publicly run operation will be shit and will cost a fortune and there is nothing you can do about it. Need some examples? Public schools, public transportation, public infrastructure, social security, every state, dmv/mvc/dot, police departments, fire departments, 911 system, every local city/municipality and on and on. The notion that people would not die if it was publicly run is hilarious. They would simply be protected by statutes that make is incredibly difficult to recover any money in the event of a loss.

 

[IReallyLikePizza2]

After experiencing first hand the complete failure of the free market in energy, I flipped my opinion 180. I can't find anywhere in the USA that switched to a public utility structure and were worse off, and the countries with public utilities have grids that are decades ahead of ours

Of all the things to have profits and low costs as the main goals, electric production and transmission is certainly not on that list

 

[fenderman]

After experiencing first hand the complete failure of the free market in energy, I flipped my opinion 180. I can't find anywhere in the USA that switched to a public utility structure and were worse off, and the countries with public utilities have grids that are decades ahead of ours

Of all the things to have profits and low costs as the main goals, electric production and transmission is certainly not on that list

Yes, because a single unexpected failure once is 100 years is a metric to use. We have proof positive that the government has failed in EVERY industry it controls. Every single one. The is zero evidence that you would not have this failure if it was government run. Investor owned utilities make up 3/4 of the US market. There are no systemic catastrophic failures. Truthfully, 57 deaths is insignificant. That number is not statistically relevant. Certainly not enough to upend the market and give government more control with no evidence it would make any difference.

 

[tigerwillow1]

A publicly run operation will be shit and will cost a fortune and there is nothing you can do about it. Need some examples?................

I wanted to post the same thought but feel like I'm wasting my time making ignored points into think air. On the surface it makes sense for these large endeavors to be run by the government. The reality is that they start out with good intentions, then get politicized. Once there's no turning back the priorities become social engineering, kickbacks for the upper managers, help getting the right people elected, what can we do to hurt Trump?, and so forth. 40 or 50 years ago the teachers in my neck of the woods were underpaid and underappreciated. Now they're overpaid and practically run the state government.