TVI v IP Cameras

[Scottjames84]

In my market we have been selling so much more Hikvision Turbo DVRs than we have IP camera systems not only due to price point but in my opinion the image is extremely comparable.

What are your opinions on TVI systems? love them or hate them?

 

[bigredfish]

I'm very familiar with CVI HD analog systems, very similar to TVI (CVI=Dahua and TVI=HIK). I believe the Dahua CVI systems are bit further along in features and image quality from what I've seen.

They have come a long way and as you say image quality is very very close to the latest IP cams. There are some feature differences, the primary being the lack of true Day/Night schedules for setting different Exposures. Along with the need to 'homerun" all cables to the DVR. Outside of that, for 99% of home or small business users they provide great value. The newer Dahua DVR's allow you to run ANY type of camera - TVI, CVI, AHD, plain analog, or IP.

 

[fenderman]

Anyone installing tvi in 2018 without disclosing the benefits of IP is a fraudster...tvi should only be used when running new cable is cost prohibitive..

 

[toysareforboys]

TVI with good quality baluns works great with Cat6 cables even at VERY long lengths (I've done 1000ft without issue). I like being able to run one Cat6 cable to the corner of a house to connect and power two cameras (or more if required). Sometimes if the connections get slightly loose at either end of the cable you'll get a double image, rolling colour bars, etc. Running the cables near fluorescent light fixtures can cause the same issues too.

-Jamie M.

 

[fenderman]

TVI with good quality baluns works great with Cat6 cables even at VERY long lengths (I've done 1000ft without issue). I like being able to run one Cat6 cable to the corner of a house to connect and power two cameras (or more if required). Sometimes if the connections get slightly loose at either end of the cable you'll get a double image, rolling colour bars, etc. Running the cables near fluorescent light fixtures can cause the same issues too.

-Jamie M.

its mess, including the baluns...you dont have to run 1000f of cable in any house...the only reason to use TVI/cvi is for price and generally its done by installers who dont explain that their system is not ip...

 

[Scottjames84]

Most end-users cannot tell the difference in picture quality with IP v HD over coax cameras.
The majority of end-users do not need all the features IP cameras have either especially since you can enable VCA on certain Hikvision HD over coax DVRs.

What benefits do IP cameras have over HD over coax besides a few more features 99% of people wouldn't even use?

I love IP cameras so please don't get me wrong infact I have them in my house; the point of this thread is to show the pros and cons of both.

 

[fenderman]

Most end-users cannot tell the difference in picture quality with IP v HD over coax cameras.
The majority of end-users do not need all the features IP cameras have either especially since you can enable VCA on certain Hikvision HD over coax DVRs.

What benefits do IP cameras have over HD over coax besides a few more features 99% of people wouldn't even use?

I love IP cameras so please don't get me wrong infact I have them in my house; the point of this thread is to show the pros and cons of both.

Exactly the image itself looks the same, that is how they are defrauded...let me give you a few benefits of ip that are not available with tvi/cvi.
1- SD card storage as backup, VERY useful...
2- the ability to stream direct from the camera to multiple devices without having to rely on the DVR working.
3- not having to homerun all the cables to the DVR..this is HUGE, particularly if you have a network infrastructure in place, want to move the DVR at some point, want a proper backup solution, or add a camera without having to run cable all the way back.
4- Not having to run additional power to the cameras (yes, there is now power over coax, but not with most systems)...
5- many more camera options with audio.
6- if you dont like the NVR and want to move to a pc based vms, you will be forced to keep the NVR running as an encoder and hope it doesnt choke at that task or fail in another way.
So take the average home installation of 4-6 cameras, using TVI you saved about 300 or so in parts...but screwed the buyer..at the very least quality ethernet should be run so that when the client comes to their senses, they wont have to pay for a new run.

 

[toysareforboys]

...you dont have to run 1000f of cable in any house...

Except for all those end of the driveway cameras

TVI is generally cheaper than IP too so for customers on a budget it can be a great option:

-Jamie M.

 

[fenderman]

Except for all those end of the driveway cameras

TVI is generally cheaper than IP too so for customers on a budget it can be a great option:

-Jamie M.

Please dont point to crap cams as evidence of any pricing, you are installing low end junk...there is low end crap ip available too..
as far as the driveway camera, I hate bullshiters, how often are you running a line 1000f to the end of a driveway? Even you do - which I KNOW you dont, you can EASILY run ip that distance for a single camera...there are also other extended options epoe by dahua for example...
Ethernet Extender - Long Range Ethernet - LONGSPAN extends Ethernet and POE 800m+
Like I said, you are saving 50 bux a camera and cutting corners to save 300-400 bux and provide the customer with crap....I understand you have to make a living, the point of this website its to help folks avoid "installers" like you..every one of the cameras you lined to will result in the customer having to clean off spider webs in the summer months...

 

[toysareforboys]

...how often are you running a line 1000f to the end of a driveway? Even you do - which I KNOW you dont, you can EASILY run ip that distance for a single camera...there are also other extended options epoe by dahua for example...
Ethernet Extender - Long Range Ethernet - LONGSPAN extends Ethernet and POE 800m+

PoE extender for $245? lol. Worst case for TVI is a few cheap active TVI baluns

It seems like almost every install I do has at least 1000ft to the end of the driveway. Just did this house last week:

I like to recommend end of driveway cameras for my customers because people like to steal mail from mailboxes or dump garbage at the end of people's driveways

-Jamie M.

 

[fenderman]

PoE extender for $245? lol. Worst case for TVI is a few cheap active TVI baluns

It seems like almost every install I do has at least 1000ft to the end of the driveway. Just did this house last week:

I like to recommend end of driveway cameras for my customers because people like to steal mail from mailboxes or dump garbage at the end of people's driveways

-Jamie M.

1- there are other devices that are cheaper, though this unit in particular is from a well known brand. Here is a 145 version Veracity VOR-ORM OUTREACH Max LAN & POE Extender
can you afford that on a job this "big"....
2- you would only need ONE for the driveway surely 245 is nothing for a job on a property like that...or you can run fiber if you have power. Few million on the house, but hey, ill use a shit 29 dollar tvi camera and standalone NVR...what a joke. BS.
3- you are either a professional ripoff artist or a bullshitter....if you installed TVI on a large estate like that you defrauded the owner.
I dont believe for one second that you did that job...I have a sixth sense and from the equipment you use and your general lack of knowledge I would say you are more likely a craigslist special installer.
No worries this website keeps folks like you away from anyone who does a bit of research...in case you havent noticed I am flat out calling you a liar.
IF by some miracle you installed TVI on this property it proves my point that shitty installers like you would screw a homeowner so that you can make a few more bux....quite frankly is repulsive, installing low end shit that others have to clean up...I am pretty certain your work is just as shoddy as your knowledge and equipment you use. YOU are the reason this site is so successful, folks who are trying to avoid scammers like you.

 

[Scottjames84]

1- there are other devices that are cheaper, though this unit in particular is from a well known brand. Here is a 145 version Veracity VOR-ORM OUTREACH Max LAN & POE Extender
can you afford that on a job this "big"....
2- you would only need ONE for the driveway surely 245 is nothing for a job on a property like that...or you can run fiber if you have power. Few million on the house, but hey, ill use a shit 29 dollar tvi camera and standalone NVR...what a joke. BS.
3- you are either a professional ripoff artist or a bullshitter....if you installed TVI on a large estate like that you defrauded the owner.
I dont believe for one second that you did that job...I have a sixth sense and from the equipment you use and your general lack of knowledge I would say you are more likely a craigslist special installer.
No worries this website keeps folks like you away from anyone who does a bit of research...in case you havent noticed I am flat out calling you a liar.
IF by some miracle you installed TVI on this property it proves my point that shitty installers like you would screw a homeowner so that you can make a few more bux....quite frankly is repulsive, installing low end shit that others have to clean up...I am pretty certain your work is just as shoddy as your knowledge and equipment you use. YOU are the reason this site is so successful, folks who are trying to avoid scammers like you.

I'm not sure if you are a hobbyist or end-user who got screwed over by a Craigslist installer but it seems to me you are very biased.

I am a professional installer and before we begin work the customer understands the pros and cons of HD over coax and IP camera systems.
Most of our clients are dealing with a limited budget and we design a system that they can afford and will suit their needs the best.

 

[fenderman]

I'm not sure if you are a hobbyist or end-user who got screwed over by a Craigslist installer but it seems to me you are very biased.

I am a professional installer and before we begin work the customer understands the pros and cons of HD over coax and IP camera systems.
Most of our clients are dealing with a limited budget and we design a system that they can afford and will suit their needs the best.

I am the owner of this website...I am biased against shady installers like you dont clarify the benefits of IP...you have evidenced in your replies that you did not even understand all the benefits of IP so there is no way you could have explained this to you your clients....
The great thing about this site is that it helps end users intstall their own systems (sometimes with the help of a low voltage cable installers to pull ethernet) at a fraction of the price and the end result is a much better system, better cameras, better NVR or better yet a pc based vms that runs circles around the standalone. Point is I understand that you do it to make a profit, the savings using TVI is not all passed to the customer - therefore you deliberately push it...its all good, the customers who do the research will come to this site and know better.

One thing you need to understand, I dont tolerate bullshit and I am straight and to the point...So keep installing TVI for YOUR benefit and lying to your customer base.

 

[toysareforboys]

...clarify the benefits of IP...

Although YOU might find IP better than TVI if I told my customers the 6 things you said, they'd just go "Pardon?? Why does that matter?".

1- SD card storage as backup, VERY useful...
As I've said in other threads, I have HORRIBLE luck with sd cards in cameras Not sure if it's the cold or the write cycles but every time a DVR got stolen or smashed, none of the SD cards were working at all, and NO data could be recovered, even by the manufacturers of the SD cards. These were SD cards that had been installed less than 2 years in both cases.

2- the ability to stream direct from the camera to multiple devices without having to rely on the DVR working.
Other than getting hit by lightning I don't think I've ever had an actual DVR/NVR fail. The hard drives, sure, but the DVR/NVR still works fine streaming direct to multiple devices without a functioning hard drive.

3- not having to homerun all the cables to the DVR..this is HUGE, particularly if you have a network infrastructure in place, want to move the DVR at some point, want a proper backup solution, or add a camera without having to run cable all the way back.
You don't have to homerun ALL the cables. Where there's 12v available at a location, you can run four TVI cameras over a single cat6 cable back to the DVR, or if power isn't available and you have to run power through the cable, then you can run three TVI cameras over a single cat6 cable back to the DVR. With the new baluns my supplier gave me he said you can run 7 cameras over a single cat6 cable (or 6 cameras with power) but I haven't had the need to test them yet.

4- Not having to run additional power to the cameras (yes, there is now power over coax, but not with most systems)...
I've never ran additional power to any TVI camera I've ever installed, it's always powered by the same Cat6 cable that carries the video signal.

5- many more camera options with audio.
lots of laws against recording audio here so I don't think I've ever even seen a camera with audio other than doorbell cameras.

6- if you dont like the NVR and want to move to a pc based vms, you will be forced to keep the NVR running as an encoder and hope it doesnt choke at that task or fail in another way.
I assume you mean DVR. This makes sense but I don't think I've ever had a customer ask me for a feature (other than 1080p JPG pictures e-mailed for notifications instead of the stamp sized ones that Hikvision DVR's e-mail out) that the knockoff hikvision DVR's don't offer, but I guess for some customers a PC based NVR might be a better solution than a stand alone DVR/NVR.

-Jamie M.

 

[Scottjames84]

First of all I do not make any more money if the customer chooses either because I do not own the company I work for not do I get commission.
Second of all I posted this original thread to get opinions and not be attacked by the owner of this forum being called a shoddy installer because I take pride in my installations and do not leave a job until the customer is fully satisfied even giving my personal cell number if they have questions after I leave.

There are benefits to both systems and I have no personal preference to which system I install as I get paid by the hour not by the job.
If I come to a job which was sold by the sales person as HD over coax but it will better suited to install IP I will always inform the customer and they will make the call which system they want.
I have a wealth of knowledge which my customers respect but it is the customer who always makes the final decision not the company I work for.
We mark our IP cameras the same percentage as we do HD over coax and there is usually more equipment needed for IP so don't you think if profit was all we were after then we would sell IP camera systems all day long and not even give the customer the choice?

 

[fenderman]

Although YOU might find IP better than TVI if I told my customers the 6 things you said, they'd just go "Pardon?? Why does that matter?".

1- SD card storage as backup, VERY useful...
As I've said in other threads, I have HORRIBLE luck with sd cards in cameras Not sure if it's the cold or the write cycles but every time a DVR got stolen or smashed, none of the SD cards were working at all, and NO data could be recovered, even by the manufacturers of the SD cards. These were SD cards that had been installed less than 2 years in both cases.

2- the ability to stream direct from the camera to multiple devices without having to rely on the DVR working.
Other than getting hit by lightning I don't think I've ever had an actual DVR/NVR fail. The hard drives, sure, but the DVR/NVR still works fine streaming direct to multiple devices without a functioning hard drive.

3- not having to homerun all the cables to the DVR..this is HUGE, particularly if you have a network infrastructure in place, want to move the DVR at some point, want a proper backup solution, or add a camera without having to run cable all the way back.
You don't have to homerun ALL the cables. Where there's 12v available at a location, you can run four TVI cameras over a single cat6 cable back to the DVR, or if power isn't available and you have to run power through the cable, then you can run three TVI cameras over a single cat6 cable back to the DVR. With the new baluns my supplier gave me he said you can run 7 cameras over a single cat6 cable (or 6 cameras with power) but I haven't had the need to test them yet.

4- Not having to run additional power to the cameras (yes, there is now power over coax, but not with most systems)...
I've never ran additional power to any TVI camera I've ever installed, it's always powered by the same Cat6 cable that carries the video single.

5- many more camera options with audio.
lots of laws against recording audio here so I don't think I've ever even seen a camera with audio other than doorbell cameras.

6- if you dont like the NVR and want to move to a pc based vms, you will be forced to keep the NVR running as an encoder and hope it doesnt choke at that task or fail in another way.
I assume you mean DVR. This makes sense but I don't think I've ever had a customer ask me for a feature (other than 1080p JPG pictures e-mailed for notifications instead of the stamp sized ones that Hikvision DVR's e-mail) that the knockoff hikvision DVR's don't offer, but I guess for some customers a PC based NVR might be a better solution than a stand alone DVR/NVR.

-Jamie M.

1- you are using SHITTY SD cards, you likely setup continuous recording and you FAILED to setup notification for card error - shoddy job installation... dont like SD cards = another benefit of IP is recording to TWO NVR's in separate locations both streaming from the camera not relying on each other....
2- That is not correct, often times drive errors cause reboots on hikvision NVR/DVR's, this is known, sometimes they do that on their own for other reasons.
3...more work, 12v power available? that is often not he case...shit install with a mess of baluns... then you need a proper power source nearby if the customer ever wants to switch to ip...
4- yes because you are a shit installer...
5- you have never seen a camera with audio? You are a LIAR. Many cameras are offered with an audio in or mic
6- That is because you failed to offer them the features or claimed they were not possible on you dvr...these standalone boxes are extremely limiting.
Bottom line is as I stated before and over again, anyone installing and pushing TVI in 2018 as you did on a new install is a scammer and a fraudster. I know the type, sadly most of the industry is like you. That is why we have this site. To warn customers against fools like you.

 

[fenderman]

First of all I do not make any more money if the customer chooses either because I do not own the company I work for not do I get commission.
Second of all I posted this original thread to get opinions and not be attacked by the owner of this forum being called a shoddy installer because I take pride in my installations and do not leave a job until the customer is fully satisfied even giving my personal cell number if they have questions after I leave.

There are benefits to both systems and I have no personal preference to which system I install as I get paid by the hour not by the job.
If I come to a job which was sold by the sales person as HD over coax but it will better suited to install IP I will always inform the customer and they will make the call which system they want.
I have a wealth of knowledge which my customers respect but it is the customer who always makes the final decision not the company I work for.
We mark our IP cameras the same percentage as we do HD over coax and there is usually more equipment needed for IP so don't you think if profit was all we were after then we would sell IP camera systems all day long and not even give the customer the choice?

Bullshit. Like I said, we know better. You can claim whatever you want, but you are a fraudster...the exact type that we are looking to help folks avoid. Keep lying to your customers, that is fine, most installers are like you. I understand that you are trying to make yourself look better, but you wont get any sympathy from me.

 

[toysareforboys]

5- you have never seen a camera with audio? You are a LIAR. Many cameras are offered with an audio in or mic

Please don't call me a liar. I speak nothing but the truth, forever and always.

My suppliers price list, models with microphones highlighted in bold, and like I said, never cameras I have never seen or used:

Nobody here ever sells cameras with a mic because if you forget to disable it the resulting video (even without the audio) is inadmissible in court

-Jamie M.

 

[fenderman]

Please don't call me a liar. I speak nothing but the truth, forever and always.

My suppliers price list, models with microphones highlighted in bold, and like I said, never cameras I have never seen or used:

Nobody here ever sells cameras with a mic because if you forget to disable it the resulting video (even without the audio) is inadmissible in court

-Jamie M.

Hey, LIAR, you forgot to highlight the cameras with AUDIO!!!!!!! You selectively highlighted mic only....try again...is that the same lying mouth you use with your suckers..I mean "customers"?
Audio recording in the US is permitted with notice...there are MANY MANY threads on this forum where folks are specifically seeking audio in AND/OR out.

 

[RBW]

I have the IP or Tvi decision to make for my brothers house. IP would be my preferred choice but ££ is what matters to my brother. The extra features of IP are of no use ti him as all he wants is a 1080p observation system. Tvi suits him fine.