What causes Analog camera delay and ghosting?

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n3wb
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I have a Dahua XVR hybrid that uses IP and Analog cameras.
Question 1) What might be causing my Analog camera delay?
  • I had a low detail Analog camera setup (900 lines or something). Then I re-used the BNC cable to connect a new 5MP Analog camera (which has settings for HD CVI, Analog, AHD, and HD TVI. It was late and I didnt note what it was set to).
  • But with the new 5MP cam connected, there is a 2-3 second delay. What causes this?
  • Could it be the old BNC cable I re-used? (unknown quality/stats; Im not sure if there is a standard for BNC cables like there is for CAT5 vs 6?) . Because I also notice mild ghosting. And this happened for another install (when I used old unknown quality cables that worked for the older/lower quality camera, instead of the new BNC cable that came with a newer Analog camera).
  • But before I run new BNC cable, I wanted to check with you guys.
  • I also changed the Encode from 5MP to 4MP, but the feed was still delayed.
  1. Update partial answer: Per Bigredfish, I changed from AI coded to Smart codec, which gave better detail. And if I change from H.265 to H.265h - then I get less lag. But today (after change to Smart codec), I get less lag then yesterday with H.265. Thanks guys.
  2. So the remaining question is if my old cord is causing ghosting? And what "Type" I should set [General, Motion, Alarm?] (underneath the codec setting).

Question 2) What mode should I be using for max quality on my NVR: HD CVI, Analog, AHD, or HD TVI?
  1. Update partial answer: the factory default was HD-TVI - allowed me to change to 5MP-N. But when I switched to HD-CVI, 5MP-N was no longer an option, only up to 4M-N. (Bigredfish answered below that Dahua cameras use HD-CVI. But my camera isnt a Dahua. And I may not need the 5MP-N. So im testing 4 for now.)

Thank you.

Issue 3) Also I have a weird issue with the resolution aspect ratio being wrong: my NVR only lists the camera res as 1296x1944 (tall) instead of 1944x1296 (correct widescreen). But 1920x1080 and under are listed correctly (widescreen).
5mp AHD camera backwards ratio sm.png
  • Im waiting on a reply from the camera seller. But if anyone knows about this or if it's related to Q1 or Q2, please say. Ty.
 
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Wow, thanks for that link. (It has been difficult to find comparison information.)

I have the Penta-Brid XVR5116H-X:
  • "16+8 Channel 5MP Mini 1U Digital Video Recorder Support 16CH HD-CVI/HD-TVI/AHD/Analog up to 5MP, 8CH Additional IP up 6MP"
So does this model support full 5MP for analog? (I searched [Dahua's wiki] but it is difficult to find exact info on their rebrand names. Some info is too general for multiple models.)

"5M-N resolution is: 1296 x 1944." Also why would a lite 5MP have a backwards aspect ratio? (Lite should be 1944x1296.)
It doesnt make sense for anything to have [X lower number] times [Y higher number] - because it produces tall pictures when saved.

Advise turning off AI codec and using Standard/General
Reason? Can you provide a link or explanation? Ty
  • The manual didn't say what AI codec is. My goal is to have the AI recording alerts, where the playback video bar is Yellow (and not Green). And my main problem with this XVR model is they only apply the AI alerts to analog camera feeds. So I cant use my expensive IP cameras to generate AI alerts (unless they have their own AI chip). So that is why I am using Analog cameras as my Human alert cams. So please advise if I do/dont need to have AI codec on for the Analog - if I want the XVR to general human detection alerts?
  • Edit: I tested and "Smart codec" works best to see grass detail (vs General or AI).
  • Edit: so my updated question is which "Type" to use (maybe that is related to my AI/human goal)?
  • camera - which Type to use.png

Turn off h.265 and use h.264
  • Can you explain the reason?
    (H.265 takes up less space but is harder to process - perhaps causing lag on slower devices (phone)? While h.264 takes more space yet processes faster; yet is it lower detail?)
  • EDIT 2: the below pic might be wrong - I cant reproduce when switching from 265 to 264 (because now 264 is showing detail without artifacts. There seems to be a delay with my NVR applying the change). And to answer one question, it seems that 264 reduces lag (while 265 has slight lag, but less than yesterday).
  • Edit: H.265 vs H.264 comparison: H.265 wins at detail and no artifacts. So if you can give me an override reason to still use h.264 - does this fix the lag issue?camera h.265 wins.png
For this specific camera, it's a wider angle and my focus is to see a far car with as much detail as possible. So please re-advise: should I still use h.264?
Thank you :)
 
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paul@austins.tv

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So many questions. Good luck bigredfish!
I'm very familiar with the XVRs, fitted quite a few over the years. Sorry I can't help. I'm having a bath tonight and washing my near on bald head.
 

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We have seen countless times h.265 result in macro blocking.
Recommend should use h.264, CBR (Not VBR), General codec, and make sure your bitrate is set as high as the machine will let you.

I see you have set to 1024Kb/s, thats too low for 2 MP cams let alone 5MP cams. Most of us run 8192 or greater. That XVR is capable of 6144Kb/s

You dont need AI codec, h.265, to do anything you are doing., They can both result in other compatibility issues
 
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bigredfish

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What brand are your analog cameras?

What brand/model are your 'high end" IP cameras?
 

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Thanks for that extra info.

The Analog brand is unknown or "Quadbrid."
(I ordered a Varifocal Dome, and they sent me this Turret camera - listing now updated. So Im testing it, learning what it actually is.)

And my IP cameras are a mix, but not Dahua or Amcrest.
One 20x PTX is JideTech. I see the Yellow video segments (for humans or movement) on the Duhua NVR at Video playback. But the human alerts will not show up in the AI > SMD panel.

And I bought a new 30x PTZ "Yes.Sys" that rotates very fast, good image/zoom, AI chip. But again the NVR will not detect AI-alerts from IP cameras that are not Duhua. (I cant select the channel # of the IP cameras, at the setup for AI, even after I moved the IP cameras to the channel slots of 1-16.) But they did not disclose this when I was shopping for the NVR.
 

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bigredfish

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Ok, so we generally recommend matching camera brand with NVR else some stuff may not work well, as you’re experiencing.

You seem to have purchased rather low end cameras and I have no idea what functionality may or may not be compatible.

As far as the 5MP analog camera, that is clearly designated a TVI camera (HiK) knockoff, so set it to TVI

Also if I recall on my 7000 series that once I enabled IP cams, the AI functionality for the analog cameras went away.
 

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Ok, so we generally recommend matching camera brand with NVR else some stuff may not work well, as you’re experiencing.
Yes, Im seeing that now. But the seller/listing did not tell me that (years ago when I was shopping for XVRs).
And I talked to Dahua support recently. They said that I have to use Dahua cameras to use AI detection for IP cams. But again, they didnt disclose that.
  • (It sounds like theyre using proprietary communication to make us pay a premium for their cameras. But even their excuse isnt logical since the XVR's AI works to detect humans on the Non-Dahua Analog cameras, which dont even have an AI chip - yet the newer IP cams with AI chips, will not detect by the XVR or use the communication from the AI cams.)
Even so, at the time I searched for "Dahua" cameras - found nothing on Amazon. And at the time I didnt know the American name was Amcrest; and their XVR listing didn't tell me either: "Buy this camera to get AI detection to work on our XVR."

Also if I recall on my 7000 series that once I enabled IP cams, the AI functionality for the analog cameras went away.
I didnt have that issue. AI always worked for Analog channels 1-16 (after I enabled), even with IP activated at channels 17-24.
But first they told me to get AI to work on IP, that I had to disable 17-24, and change some of 1-16 to IP channels. I did that (lost the bonus channels), but AI still didnt work on my IP cams (the setting wouldnt show for the IP channels).
Then they told me that AI wont work with IP cams, unless I buy their cameras.

So do you know any workaround for this? Firmware hack to get other brand IPs to detect AI on the Dahua XVR?
Or is there some setting I need to change? (Thats why I was asking about the "AI codec" (not the answer) or the encode "Type" (I was wondering if the encode affected the communication to achieve the correct AI signal alerts?).
(Learning about AI not working was a surprise, so Im not sure of what search terms to use, to see if this has been asked before.)
Thank you.
 

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There's no workaround
Yeah you;d be better off with Dahua branded camera,. Try one and see first.

There is a distributor for Dahua that most of us use that has been a good partner for many years, honest and backs up his equipment. Some of his gear is branded Dahua some his own brand (Empire Tech) but the difference is just a sticker. Andy, his handle here is @EMPIRETECANDY

He has an Amazon store, and can get you whatever you cant find there direct
EmpireTech

Recommend you look at the 5442 series 4MP IP cameras. They are the go-to of many of us
 
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Thanks for the link, and it's on Amazon (easier to shop/ship).
So do his own brands work for the AI on the Dahua XVRs? Or only the specific Dahua cameras that he sells? (but they have to say Dahua?)
  • I see "EmpireTech 4MP Smart IR Fixed-Focal Lens Mini Bullet IP Camera,Support SMD 3.0 and IVS (Perimeter Protection),Bullet Camera SE 3.6mm"
  • keywords "SMD 3.0 and IVS" - so does that mean it will work on the Dahua XVR for AI?
 

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His cameras are mostly Dahua so they will be compatible with that XVR yes. However when you go to IP cams, there are still some higher level functions that require a true NVR and there are 3-4 levels of performance, just like cars and dishwashers. The more performance and bells and whistles, the more $$.
I have an older 7000 series XVR (I dont use anymore) and it is compatible with most current popular Dahua IP camera models, but there are features in newer cams that it is not compatible with.

AI is just a broad term for advanced detection and analytic features on NVRs and Cameras. Start focusing on IVS, which is AI powered. It performs far better than SMD. Also its best to use the camera interface itself for settings, including AI functions, as opposed to the NVR interface. They are not identical and they dont see the same thing entirely. AI onboard the camera is your best path. Use the AI tab on the XVR simply for search/review not settings and function.

Can you post a screenshot of your AI tab on your XVR? Does it look something like this?
 

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Thanks for the link, and it's on Amazon (easier to shop/ship).
So do his own brands work for the AI on the Dahua XVRs? Or only the specific Dahua cameras that he sells? (but they have to say Dahua?)
  • I see "EmpireTech 4MP Smart IR Fixed-Focal Lens Mini Bullet IP Camera,Support SMD 3.0 and IVS (Perimeter Protection),Bullet Camera SE 3.6mm"
  • keywords "SMD 3.0 and IVS" - so does that mean it will work on the Dahua XVR for AI?

Anything Andy sells is Dahua, the only difference may be the sticker.
 

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Does it look something like this?
The pic didnt post. Can you fix it?

(Im not exactly sure where to click on SMartPSS to get to the AI settings. Do you have a vid that shows how to set this up from within SmartPSS? Years ago I searched, but what their video showed, wasnt displayed as a setting for me.)
1-8 are Analog channels. 9-16 are IP:
SmartPSS - Event config -.png

But if I access the XVR IP from the browser, I see this for search. But IVS gets no results. And SMD only gets results for Analog cams.
XVR browser - AI - SMD.png
 

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Yes that second image is what I meant. Good.

Dont use SmartPSS for ANY settings. use it to view live and export recorded footage. For that its great. For settings, you can/will run into conflicts.

Use the NVR interface to set Recording functions, use the direct Camera UI for ALL image settings. It will push the info back to the XVR, (that which the XVR understands anyway) , but use the direct camera Web interface and save yourself a lot of frustration.

The XVR does NOT have or understand many settings that are only on the camera.
 
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Thanks for the summary. Can you remind me where to go to enable AI Human detection per camera? SmartPSS or Web interface and which Topic/tab?
(I forgot where, but I want to show you a pic - that it wont let me select the IP channels to set.)

Dont use SmartPSS for ANY settings. use it to view live and export recorded footage.
Yes. I manage view 2 devices and get my recordings saved.
  • (Something annoying tho, when I click the Scissor Icon to activate the Make-clip duration.. it auto sets the End time (red marker) 2 hours away. So I have to zoom out to pull it close, then zoom in to seek to the exact seconds I want. It's really dumb that they didnt make the default to 1 minute or something small so that we dont have to constantly zoom out to pull it closer. Know any fix for that?)

Use the NVR interface to set Recording functions
I cant easily access the NVR itself. It uses a keyboard mouse.

use the direct Camera UI for ALL image settings.
This works best for my IP cams. But the XVR ignores the AI settings (set at camera level). So thats my current problem to solve.

but use the direct camera Web interface and save yourself a lot of frustration.
How do I Web-interface another XVR that I manage, that is on another network? Isn't there a call home IP or serial # that I can tell the browser to connect to?
  • (Because I cant view AI Events on SmartPSS. Even a Dahua video said this, which is dumb that their official program left out an access option. How are we supposed to access the settings (AI playback/search) for other XVRs we own that are at another home?)
 

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Lets go over some basics.
Also check out this post to become familiar with NVR/XVR basic setup and function and PoE connected IP cameras.
***PSA for those with a New DAHUA NVR with Built-in PoE switch

Once you leave Analog camera land, it gets more complicated.
(By the way, are you aware each analog camera has its own settings and things that can only be set on the camera OSD menu? (NOT the NVR) Do you know how to access the analog camera settings?
webgui1.jpg


There are 3 "interfaces"

1- The NVR itself and its "machine interface". This is accessed by a monitor and mouse hooked directly to the NVR/XVR. This UI is necessary for setup, but should then be abandoned.

2- The Web UI of the NVR. You access the Web UI with a web browser on your home network on a PC. The NVR address will be 192.168.1.108 unless you've changed it. This should be your primary access to the NVR/XVR. You accessed it when you showed the picture of the AI tab earlier

3- The Camera Web UI- this is a direct interface for the individual IP camera itself. There are lots of settings on it that you wont even see or know exist by going through the NVR interface
To access the camera UI use the IP address of the camera (likely 192.168.1.X OR it may show in your camera tab on the NVR Web UI, if so, use the IE icon to open
the camera interface.
NVR-Cameras.png

more:
  • SmartPSS- should only be used to view live, playback, and download clips - full stop. It is much better at these things than the NVR itself. It should not be used to make ANY setting change, not "AI settings, not schedule/record settings, not image settings,. Nada.
  • AI - its a term that applies to lots of things, so we need to be more specific. SMD, IVS, and the tab that you see on the NVR Web UI to view AI search and parameters are all "AI" functions
  • AI in the case of these cameras and NVRs is simply the ability to identify Humans, cars, and other predetermined functions. (Missing object, Face Detection, etc). Again when talking about AI we need to be specific as to what function you're inquiring about.
  • AI "Human Detection" can be enabled two different ways. Via SMD which is an AI overlay to old fashioned Motion Detection (which is NOT AI capable, it simply sees ALL motion as an alert) , and IVS, which is by most all account much better than SMD. IVS consists of various rules such as Tripwire, Intrusion, and others. Again we have to be specific to answer your questions.
  • IVS and SMD - are AI rules you set on the camera (which can also be seen on SmartPSS) to allow for Human/Vehicle specific detection and other alerts. These alerts can be seen on the timeline on SmartPSS as red, orange and sometimes blue hash marks allowing you to quickly go to that alert. The IVS rule lines can be displayed on the live and playback view of SmartPSS. Here you see a bunch of different IVS rules on one camera
  • IVS-rules.jpg
  • NVR AI tab. This shows AI Search and Parameters for each camera that is AI capable. Dont make settings here. As mentioned above, make setting changes on the camera itself. This is semi useful to see AI generated alerts with visual snapshots but you can see them and more using SmartPSS and the timeline. Its cool and interesting at first, but not all that useful for the average homeowner. If the camera isnt AI capable and compatible with the Dahua NVR it wont work.
  • IVSdatabse2.jpg


I'll try and answer your questions
1- Thanks for the summary. Can you remind me where to go to enable AI Human detection per camera? SmartPSS or Web interface and which Topic/tab?
Go to the camera web interface itself.

2- Something annoying tho, when I click the Scissor Icon to activate the Make-clip duration.. it auto sets the End time (red marker) 2 hours away. So I have to zoom out to pull it close, then zoom in to seek to the exact seconds I want. It's really dumb that they didnt make the default to 1 minute or something small so that we dont have to constantly zoom out to pull it closer. Know any fix for that?)
If you go to the far right edge of the timeline AFTER you set the first scissor mark, and click/hold/drag, you'll pull the endpoint scissor tag to where you want it regardless of how zoomed you are on the timeline

3- use the direct Camera UI for ALL image settings
This works best for my IP cams. But the XVR ignores the AI settings (set at camera level). So thats my current problem to solve.
This is because the NVR doesnt know how to manage the AI alerts from these non-Dahua cameras. Buy Dahua Cameras that HAVE AI features

4- How do I Web-interface another XVR that I manage, that is on another network? Isn't there a call home IP or serial # that I can tell the browser to connect to?
There are a couple of methods, This will take far more space than we have here and is really a networking question. You can lookup and read about A) OpenVPN and/or B) P2P

5- (Because I cant view AI Events on SmartPSS. Even a Dahua video said this, which is dumb that their official program left out an access option. How are we supposed to access the settings (AI playback/search) for other XVRs we own that are at another home?)
I think you're way too wrapped up in the "AI Events" search thing. SmartPSS does not have the AI visual Search built into it. BUT look at the timeline, the red hashmarks ARE AI events. If you mean the graphical image based search (AI search) on the NVR, IF you get AI enabled Dahua cameras, you'll be able to use that. It will look something like this. I never use it, its cool for about a week or two. There's a difference between not seeing the graphical picture-based AI search, and "not working" or recording AI events.
IVSdatabse2.jpg
 
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