What to buy - need direction

Bonaro

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I have quite a bit of CCTV experience but it is mostly analog and dated. I am shopping for a home camera system and I'm seeing a staggering variety of choices.
I'm leaning toward a WiFi NVR and about 8 wireless cameras. Then I saw some open source software by Reolink and ISpy.

What I really need is some direction. Should I use the software and put together my system or buy a system in a box?
Will the software connect to most any wireless camera or are they proprietary?

Any help would be appreciated
 

wittaj

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Reolink is not opensource.

Stay away from Reolink unless all you care about is what time something happened. At night they are useless.

Stay away from a system in a box unless all you care about is observe and what time something happened, but don't care about IDENTIFY.

Many here use Blue Iris software on a PC, while many use an NVR, and some use other software as well. Comes down to your needs and expectations.


Also stay away from wireless cams unless it is only used for watching the dog.

Wifi and cameras do not go together.

There are always ways if you don't want to run an ethernet cable.

You need power anyway, so go with a powerline adapter to run the date over your electric lines or use a nano-station.

Maybe you are fine now one day with wifi cams, but one day something will happen. A new device, neighbors microwave, etc.

Cameras connected to Wifi routers (whether wifi or not) are problematic for surveillance cameras because they are always streaming and passing data. And the data demands go up with motion and then you lose signal. A lost packet and it has to resend. It can bring the whole network down if trying to send cameras through a wifi router. At the very least it can slow down your entire system.

Unlike Netflix and other streaming services that buffer a movie, these cameras do not buffer up part of the video, so drop outs are frequent, especially once you start adding distance. You would be amazed how much streaming services buffer - don't believe me, start watching something and unplug your router and watch how much longer you can watch NetFlix before it freezes - mine goes 45 seconds. Now do the same with a camera connected to a router and it is fairly instantaneous (within the latency of the stream itself)...

The same issue applies even with the hard-wired cameras trying to send all this non-buffer video stream through a router. Most consumer grade wifi routers are not designed to pass the constant video stream data of cameras, and since they do not buffer, you get these issues. The consumer routers are just not designed for this kind of traffic, even a GB speed router.

So the more cameras you add, the bigger the potential for issues.

Many people unfortunately think wifi cameras are the answer and they are not. People will say what about Ring and Nest - well that is another whole host of issues that we will not discuss here LOL, but they are not streaming 24/7, only when you pull up the app. And then we see all the people come here after that system failed them because their wifi couldn't keep up when the perp came by. For streaming 24/7 to something like an NVR or Blue Iris, forget about it if you want reliability.


This was a great test that SouthernYankee tried and posted about it here:

I did a WIFI test a while back with multiple 2MP cameras each camera was set to VBR, 15 FPS, 15 Iframe, 3072kbs, h.264. Using a WIFI analyzer I selected the least busy channel (1,6,11) on the 2.4 GHZ band and set up a separate access point. With 3 cameras in direct line of sight of the AP about 25 feet away I was able to maintain a reasonable stable network with only intermittent signal drops from the cameras. Added a 4th camera and the network became totally unstable. Also add a lot of motion to the 3 cameras caused some more network instability. More data more instability.
The cameras are nearly continuously transmitting. So any lost packet causes a retry, which cause more traffic, which causes more lost packets.
WIFI does not have a flow control, or a token to transmit. So your devices transmit any time they want, more devices more collisions.
As a side note, it is very easy to jam a WIFI network. WIFI is fine for watching the bird feed but not for home surveillance and security.
The problem is like standing in a room, with multiple people talking to you at the same time about different subjects. You need to answer each person or they repeat the question.

Test do not guess.

For a 802.11G 2.4 GHZ WIFI network the Theoretical Speed is 54Mbps (6.7MBs) real word speed is nearer to 10-29Mbps (1.25-3.6 MBs) for a single channel


And TonyR recommends this (which is the preferred way IF you want to do wifi)

The only way I'd have wireless cams is the way I have them now: a dedicated 802.11n, 2.4GHz Access Point for 3 cams, nothing else uses that AP. Its assigned channel is at the max separation from another 2.4GHz channel in the house. There is no other house near me for about 300 yards and we're separated by dense foliage and trees.

Those 3 cams are indoor, non-critical pet cams (Amcrest IP2M-841's) streaming to Blue Iris and are adequately reliable for their jobs. They take their turns losing signal/reconnecting usually about every 12 hours or so for about 20 seconds which I would not tolerate for an outdoor surveillance cam pointed at my house and/or property.

But for me, this works in my situation: dedicated AP, non-critical application and periodic, short-term video loss.... if any one of those 3 conditions can't be achieved or tolerated, then I also do not recommend using wireless cams. :cool:
 
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wittaj

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Look at these examples of Reolink reviews. Is this sufficient for your needs?

What you mean a missing hand isn't normal LOL :lmao: (plus look at the blur on the face and he is barely moving and this should be ideal indoor IR bounce and it struggles):



1672013569648.png





How about missing everything but the head and upper torso :lmao:

The invisible man, where can he be. Thank goodness he is carrying around a reflective plate to see where he is LOL (hint - the person is literally in the middle of the image at the end of the fence holding a license plate)

I've seen better images on an episode of ghost hunters :lmao:


1672013751058.png





And of course, this is an example from Reolink's marketing videos - do you see a person in this picture...yes, there is a person in this picture.... Could this provide anything useful for the police other than the date and time something happened? Would this protect your property? The still picture looks great though except for the person and the blur of the vehicle... Will give you a hint - the person is in between the two visible columns:



1672013780681.png



Bad Boys
Bad Boys
Watcha gonna do
Watcha gonna do
When the cameras can't see you


Here is the unofficial Reolink page where people have provided their best nighttime image captures. As you will see, they are basically useless.

 
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wittaj

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Now if you are serious about cameras and want them to actually be useful, then see this thread for the commonly recommended cameras (along with Amazon links) based on distance to IDENTIFY that represent the overall best value in terms of price and performance day and night. As you will see, the common 2.8mm camera in box-kits don't cut it for IDENTIFY past 10-15 feet.

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection
 

wittaj

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If you go with wifi cameras, check out this thread for all the captures people get with wifi cameras.

The common themes you see are missed motion all together, pixelated mess because the wifi can't keep up, and total motion blur because the cameras are set up for bright static images at the expense of clean motion captures.

Are these images sufficient for your needs?

 

TonyR

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I have quite a bit of CCTV experience but it is mostly analog and dated. I am shopping for a home camera system and I'm seeing a staggering variety of choices.
I'm leaning toward a WiFi NVR and about 8 wireless cameras. Then I saw some open source software by Reolink and ISpy.

What I really need is some direction. Should I use the software and put together my system or buy a system in a box?
Will the software connect to most any wireless camera or are they proprietary?

Any help would be appreciated
Lots of good reading from wittaj above.....and Welcome to IPCT! :wave:
 

Bonaro

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Thank you. This is a lot of info to absorb, will take a minute. I am liking the idea of a NVR but if I go with Blue Iris, do I need a video capture card for my PC?

I will be putting up 6-8 cameras, all of them outdoors and one will be a PTZ. When I developed this place I was wise enough to bury empty conduit so I can actually hardwire all of this except 2. I could use a wireless transmitter or wifi on those cameras, they are not critical.

I have a couple boxes full of legacy analog security cameras, maybe I will just go old school and set them up on twisted pair. I know that will work, it's just older gear.
 

wittaj

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No you do not need a video card for BI unless you decide not to use camera AI and use BI AI for every camera.
 

mat200

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I have quite a bit of CCTV experience but it is mostly analog and dated. I am shopping for a home camera system and I'm seeing a staggering variety of choices.
I'm leaning toward a WiFi NVR and about 8 wireless cameras. Then I saw some open source software by Reolink and ISpy.

What I really need is some direction. Should I use the software and put together my system or buy a system in a box?
Will the software connect to most any wireless camera or are they proprietary?

Any help would be appreciated
Welcome @Bonaro

1) I'm leaning toward a WiFi NVR and about 8 wireless cameras.

WiFi is not recommended for security cameras .. we have all experienced too many issues regarding WIFi ..

Go wired PoE is what most of us end up doing. ( get good quality cat5e/6 cable with copper wires 23 or 24 AWG )

2) Then I saw some open source software by Reolink and ISpy.

Reolink, many issues with that brand .. most of us go with Dahua OEM or Hikvision OEM cameras that meet ONVIF specs ( example RSTP .. ) and larger sensor models of cameras.

3) Should I use the software and put together my system or buy a system in a box?

For best results you want to pick the proper camera placement and pick a camera that works well.

Most boxed sets of NVR / cameras or DVR / Cameras have cheaper cameras with wide FOVs and smaller sensors .. which are not ideal if you want low light image capture and the ability to ID further away from the camera.

4) Will the software connect to most any wireless camera or are they proprietary?

Cloud dependent cameras can be proprietary .. in general do not go WiFi for your kit / system.

Your core system look to get a wired IP PoE setup .. if you want to augment that with a few WiFi or cloud cameras, that would be decent .. just avoid a cloud dependent or completely WiFi setup if you need a reliable setup.


My typical recommendation for those new to this :

Pick up one good 4MP 1/1.8" varifocal camera, a good length of cat5e/6 patch cable, and a small PoE switch and start playing around with various placements and FOVs on the camera ... search for test rig here also to see what others have used to test cameras out ..
 
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Bonaro

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Ok, I have been absorbing the info you all have given and looking online. IP PoE is probably the way to go.

One Question: I have a shop, garage and house, all detached. Several cameras will be on each building. Can I plug the cameras on each building into a PoE switch then run one cat 6 from each building back to where ever the NVR is located? I presume the total number of cameras cannot exceed the limits of the NVR
Does running the cameras thru a switch cause latency or problems controlling a PTZ?
 

TonyR

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Can I plug the cameras on each building into a PoE switch then run one cat 6 from each building back to where ever the NVR is located?
If more than one cam per cable, you give the cams unique, static IP's on the same subnet as the NVR's LAN and plug into same LAN as the NVR; you won't plug it into any NVR POE port, as a POE NVR puts the cams on a private (different) subnet to isolate cams from the Internet.

If only 1 cam per cable then OK to plug into POE NVR's POE port, 1 cam per NVR POE port.

I presume the total number of cameras cannot exceed the limits of the NVR
Correct
Does running the cameras thru a switch cause latency or problems controlling a PTZ?
No. Just insure if it's a POE switch for a POE PTZ that it can supply the power needed, usually 802.3at or 803.3bt
 

Bonaro

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Yes, if you give the cams unique, static IP's on the same subnet as the NVR's LAN and plug into same LAN as the NVR; you won't plug it into any NVR POE port, as a POE NVR puts the cams on a private (different) subnet to isolate cams from the Internet.


Correct

No. Just insure if it's a POE switch for a POE PTZ that it can supply the power needed, usually 802.3at or 803.3bt
Ok, I have a 2TB disk in my PC that isn't doing anything. if I ditch the NVR and run Blue Iris, can I plug the switches into the data switch I have on my network?
 
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