Which 4k/8mp color night vision cameras???

Parley

Known around here
Joined
Dec 19, 2015
Messages
5,604
Reaction score
15,939
Location
Cypress, California
Here is a picture from tonight of said camera. Focus looks good to me up close. Plus I like the detail the 4K gives you with the 1/1.2" sensor. The main purpose of this camera is to keep close tabs on the cars parked in the driveway and people walking up the house entrance on the right. It also gives a nice overview. This is a 4mm lens.

Camera 6 LPR.jpg
 
Last edited:

triumph202

Pulling my weight
Joined
Feb 5, 2017
Messages
487
Reaction score
211
Location
Australia
So the 2387 Gen2 is the go if you want the turret style (which i do) ?
Yes, same sensor and same low light performance (going by Hikvisions spec for both.) I'm not sure why the min focus distance specs are different for the same focal length f1.0 lens?
 

buzurk

n3wb
Joined
Nov 21, 2019
Messages
11
Reaction score
0
Location
Australia
Thanks, So best bang for buck in a turret is DS-2CD2387G2-LU for high res, colour night vision etc
 

triumph202

Pulling my weight
Joined
Feb 5, 2017
Messages
487
Reaction score
211
Location
Australia
Thanks, So best bang for buck in a turret is DS-2CD2387G2-LU for high res, colour night vision etc
If you're going for Hikvision that shouldn't disappoint, I'm not sure how Dahua compare.

Be aware having a super bright built in light on the camera itself may give impressive distant night vision, but will likely wash out facial features (with fair coloured skin) when a person is close.

Unless you're covering close subjects only (or need a very wide angle FOV), go for the 4mm. It's slightly under 90 degrees horizontal FOV so covers a decent width.
 

triumph202

Pulling my weight
Joined
Feb 5, 2017
Messages
487
Reaction score
211
Location
Australia
It's harder to ID someone with a wider FOV at the same distance (i.e. smaller magnification lens on the same camera model.) So it's best to not go any wider than necessary.

DORI numbers are supposed to give a rough guide.
 

buzurk

n3wb
Joined
Nov 21, 2019
Messages
11
Reaction score
0
Location
Australia
Ah ok ill do some research, i gota 4mm once and didnt like how zoomed in it was, cut so much of the view off
 

triumph202

Pulling my weight
Joined
Feb 5, 2017
Messages
487
Reaction score
211
Location
Australia
You need to check the FOV specs as a 4mm lens on one camera won't necessarily be the same FOV as another model. The sensor size comes into it as well. The 4mm 4MP Colorvu turret FOV is 95 degrees DS-2CD2347G2-L(U) , the 4mm 8MP is 88 degrees. DS-2CD2387G2-L(U)

Check the specs on your old camera.
 

wittaj

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
24,445
Reaction score
47,571
Location
USA
What is your intended use - to observe or identify?

I started with four 2.8mm cameras and I was like "I can place one on each corner of the house and see my whole property and the whole neighborhood." A newbie loves the wide angle "I can see the whole neighborhood" of the 2.8mm fixed wide angle lens. I LOVED IT WHEN I PUT IT UP. I could see everything that would be blocked looking out the windows.

It is easy to get lured in to thinking the wide angle "see the whole neighborhood" because you are watching it and you see a neighbor go by and you are like "Look at that I can tell that is Heather out walking." and "Yeah I can tell our neighbor 4 down just passed by". Or you watch back the video of you walking around and are like "yeah I can tell that is me".

Little do we realize how much WE can identify a known person just by hair style, clothing, walking pace, gait, etc.

Then one day the door checker comes by. Total stranger. Totally useless video other than what time the door checking happened. I was so furious my system let me down.

Then you realize that this wide-angle see the whole neighborhood comes at a cost and that cost is not being able to IDENTIFY who did it. These 2.8mm wide angle cameras are great overview cameras or to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet of the camera if the camera is installed less than 9 feet hight. At 40 feet out or a higher install you need a different camera.

And like most, I stuck these wide angle cameras on the 2nd story to be able to see even more, which then means any IDENTIFY distance is lost vertically. Someone needs to be within 10-13 feet to identify someone with a 2.8mm lens. A camera placed 16-20 feet up means the entire IDENTIFY distance is lost in the vertical direction. They could be one foot away horizontally, but at 20 feet high, you will only get a good shot at the top of the head...

So then we start adding more cameras and varifocal cameras so that we can optically zoom in to pinch points and other areas of interest to get the clean IDENTIFY captures of someone.

While the varifocals are great at helping to identify at a distance, they come at a cost of a reduced field of view, just like the wide-angles are great at seeing a wide area, but they come at the expense of IDENTIFY at distance.
 

triumph202

Pulling my weight
Joined
Feb 5, 2017
Messages
487
Reaction score
211
Location
Australia
8MP Colorvu 4mm turret, the garage door is about 4m from the camera. Contrast turned down to improve detail in shadows.

Edit: the verandah post is 2.1m from the camera and Hik specs say focus distance is 3.6m to infinity for the 4mm 8MP 2387. The rego on the neighbour's red car can easily be read, it would be greater than 15m away.
 

Attachments

Last edited:
Joined
May 7, 2017
Messages
24
Reaction score
19
Any advice for those of us looking to upgrade? Im especially confused by these 4K and 8K cameras and what they would bring to my situation.

I have a varifocal Dalhua IPC-HDW5231R-Z turret on the back of my garage facing into the alley. I put a pretty big security light back there which gets even brighter when it detects motion.

Attached is a shot of one of two chuckleheads walking around with a car jack at 1:00 AM with said setup.

1656718578200.png

Here is another example of how my shutter @ 10ms can catch someone who was moving pretty fast on his bike. But you can see the noise for sure:
1656718933153.png

So whats the most cost effective way to improve this? I know I want varifocal because I will always be adjusting cameras and moving them around.

4K comes with a higher data-rate but would I get more useful information (and not just more noise) in situations like these when the lighting is "good but its still nighttime?".

The sensor is the key right? Does anyone buy the 4K or 8K camera and then run it at 2K or is that just a waste of money?
 

triumph202

Pulling my weight
Joined
Feb 5, 2017
Messages
487
Reaction score
211
Location
Australia
I have a varifocal Dalhua IPC-HDW5231R-Z turret on the back of my garage facing into the alley. I put a pretty big security light back there which gets even brighter when it detects motion.
How far have you got it zoomed in? That's one of the cameras I recently replaced, if you're using the full zoom capability then you might be better off going for the Colorvu bullet @Parley mentioned- which can be bought with a 6mm lens. DS-2CD2T87G2-L The turret version only comes in 2.8 and 4mm.

Are you using an NVR? That might also sway what brand camera would be the best choice. Using ONVIF can be annoying.

PS: You will get better results in low light in colour than the 5231.
 
Joined
May 7, 2017
Messages
24
Reaction score
19
Thanks for the feedback @triumph202 I am indeed zoomed most of the way in. One reason Im into varifocal is that I would try the camera out in various locations to see if I should replace other ones I already have as well :> Having one camera that can work in many situations is good for non-expert types like me.

I'm using OnVif (Blue Iris). Wouldn't consider myself as having deep expertise but enough to keep it running and do things like adjust shutter speed so things arent too smeary in low light. Also using Deepstack for AI object detection. I see these new cameras have AI for Person/Vehicle detection (but not brocolli dammit). Maybe thats good enough that I could take Deepstack out of the mix. Im wondering if the cameras need to be able to phone home for the AI to work though.

I also have a IPC-HFW5231E-ZE hanging off a front soffit that I decided to use more for street surveillance. I won't post a photo of the color performance at night because its embarrassing and Im asking too much of the camera anyway. I'm not even near street lights. So if I got a "much better" camera for the alley I could always try it out up front as well and go from there.

I know from photography cameras that fixed lenses tend to have better low light performance. Is that a significant thing with these kinds of security cameras as well?

I don't see any way to get good enough quality for real identification at night with a camera like this but I do like the idea of color at night because it gets you a bit closer to identification than B&W IMO. That is: I'd rather have a slightly blurrier shot of a guy with blue pants on a red bike than a crisper image of the pants and bike in black and white with the guys face half washed out by the IR reflecting back anyway. ("Does he have a beard? It looks like he has one in this frame but not the next frame. Is that just the IR reflecting back funny?")
 

triumph202

Pulling my weight
Joined
Feb 5, 2017
Messages
487
Reaction score
211
Location
Australia
I am indeed zoomed most of the way in.
Given you're looking at going from 2MP to 8MP that will compensate somewhat.

Im wondering if the cameras need to be able to phone home for the AI to work though.
For the Hik Colorvu it's setup in the camera's web GUI - you select "Motion" or "Intrusion" and can tick "Human" and "Vehicle" as options. Then select "Notify Surveillance Center" and it tags the events on my NVR. It's works extremely well. My NVR (DS-7608NI-I2/8P) doesn't have the smarts built in (and it's isolated from the internet) so no way for mine to do anything online.

I don't see any way to get good enough quality for real identification at night with a camera like this but I do like the idea of color at night because it gets you a bit closer to identification than B&W IMO. That is: I'd rather have a slightly blurrier shot of a guy with blue pants on a red bike than a crisper image of the pants and bike in black and white with the guys face half washed out by the IR reflecting back anyway. ("Does he have a beard? It looks like he has one in this frame but not the next frame. Is that just the IR reflecting back funny?")
I've had my front yard set up in colour for a couple of years - for that reason. You can still get the washed out faces with the Colorvu, like if you've got an intense light source and the person gets too close. They do have a HLC setting, I tried it out early on and found it appeared to negatively impact the areas in shadow. But it's probably better to have HLC on to reduce the possibility of over exposure on faces- once people have actually entered my yard. (I have got a lot of sensor lights out front.)

I had a guy come up to my front door a couple of nights ago, he set off all the PIR lights and his face was washed out a bit when he got closer to one of the mains powered sensor lights. Prior to getting close his face was clear enough. I didn't answer the door, checking the footage later he was carrying a pick axe :wow: . I think he was a legit plumber doing some work next door and wanted access to an easement in my backyard, but why at 6:30pm in the dark....

I know from photography cameras that fixed lenses tend to have better low light performance. Is that a significant thing with these kinds of security cameras as well?
It's the aperture of the lens (you'd know that from still photography) that helps with the nightvision. The Colorvu use f1.0 lenses- so a large aperture opening. But that large aperture also affects the focal range (e.g. how you'd induce the often desirable "bokeh" effect in still photography). The varifocal/ zoom lens would be more expensive to make- particularly with f1.0. You can get a 4MP Colorvu with varifocal in bullet and dome design. DS-2CD2647G2-LZS DS-2CD2747G2-LZS They may release one in 8MP in the future.
 
Joined
May 7, 2017
Messages
24
Reaction score
19
Thanks for the great leads. I forgot all about bokeh.

LOL, I'd love to enter footage of a carjacking into a court of law and have the judge remark, "Thats some beautiful bokeh at the moment the defendant brandishes his gun"
 

wittaj

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
24,445
Reaction score
47,571
Location
USA
Any advice for those of us looking to upgrade? Im especially confused by these 4K and 8K cameras and what they would bring to my situation.

I have a varifocal Dalhua IPC-HDW5231R-Z turret on the back of my garage facing into the alley. I put a pretty big security light back there which gets even brighter when it detects motion.

Attached is a shot of one of two chuckleheads walking around with a car jack at 1:00 AM with said setup.

View attachment 132291

Here is another example of how my shutter @ 10ms can catch someone who was moving pretty fast on his bike. But you can see the noise for sure:
View attachment 132292

So whats the most cost effective way to improve this? I know I want varifocal because I will always be adjusting cameras and moving them around.

4K comes with a higher data-rate but would I get more useful information (and not just more noise) in situations like these when the lighting is "good but its still nighttime?".

The sensor is the key right? Does anyone buy the 4K or 8K camera and then run it at 2K or is that just a waste of money?
It looks like the gain is set too high and that is causing the ghosting.

You have to get the correct focal length for the area you want to IDENTIFY on the proper MP/sensor ratio. In some cases it might be a 2MP or 4MP that is the better option based on MP/sensor ratio. In my case it has been my 2MP cams that have got the money shot for the police. Do not be concerned about a lower MP if the optical zoom is correct.

Downrezing a 4K camera does not work - It is still using the 8 million pixels - the camera doesn't change the "pixel resolution screen" on the camera when you go from 8MP to 2MP. The sensor still needs 4 times the light going from 8MP to 2MP, so the native 2MP camera will result in a better image at night. The firmware will make some algorithm attempt at downrezing it, but it could be a complete crap image or a somewhat usable image, but if there is a concern that the 8MP isn't performing or wouldn't perform well at night, then it is better to go with the 2MP.

I have a 4MP and 2MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor and the picture quality is quite different between the two and the 2MP kicks it's butt at night.

In most instances, you want to get a camera that will perform at your location for the worse situation, which for most of us is at night when it is dark and there is little to no light. If a camera performs at night, it is easier to tweak settings to make it work during the day than it is the other way around.

My 2MP cameras outperform my neighbors 4K (8MP) cameras....why....because they are both on the same size sensor.

When we had a thief come thru here and get into a lot of cars, the police couldn't use one video or photo from anyone's system but mine. Not even my other neighbors $1,300 8MP system provided useful info - the cams just didn't cut it at night.

My neighbor tried the "I will just downrez the 8MP to 2MP" and the image was a soft dark mess.

His system wasn't even a year old and after that event has started replacing with cameras purchased from @EMPIRETECANDY here based on my recommendation and seeing my results. He is still shocked a 2MP camera performs better than his 4k cameras and he cannot figure out why downrezing from 8MP to 2MP doesn't work properly... It is all about the amount of light needed and getting the right camera for the right location and downrezing doesn't change the physics of the camera.
 
Last edited:

triumph202

Pulling my weight
Joined
Feb 5, 2017
Messages
487
Reaction score
211
Location
Australia

wittaj

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
24,445
Reaction score
47,571
Location
USA
The Colorvu 8MP G2 easily outperforms the 2MP Dahua Starlight varifocal I replaced and the Hikvision 3MP "Powered by Dark Fighter" (fixed and varifocal versions.)

Technology is improving all the time. Simply stating a 2MP outperforms a 4K/ 8MP at night is wrong- it all depends on what camera models you are comparing.
What I said is not wrong - Re-read what you quoted me from - I said 2MP on a 1/2.8" sensor will outperform a 4K/8MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor, which implies unspoken camera models where a 4K/8MP on a 1/2.8" sensor is a budget camera touting 8MP for the unsuspecting consumer chasing MP at a cheaper cost.

Of course the Colorvu 8MP easily outperforms the 2MP for the same field of view because the ColorVu is on a 1/1.2" sensor while the 2MP and the 3MP you replaced is on the 1/2.8" sensor....

8MP on a 1/1.2" sensor is the ideal MP/sensor combo....8MP on a 1/2.8" sensor is not an ideal MP/sensor combo and a 2MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor will beat the 8MP on the 1/2.8" sensor at night.
 
Last edited:
Top