Will this computer run BI well. First post here - need answer to quick question.

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There's a computer for sale local to me. The guy is including all kinds of accessories, like two monitors, fresh Win 10 install, full MS Office, etc.

It's an i7, which I see is the preferred processor on the forum, except it is a first gen: Intel Core i7 2.8GHz Quad CPU with 24 Gig ram and an SSD main drive.

Will this work well or is going all the way back to a first gen i7 just not going to cut it? Is it worth $300 with 2 monitors/printer/wifi card/surge protector/etc.

Thank you!
 
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What model is it in the i7 family. There are many different models involved in the i7 series. I would say an i7-6700K is a safe bet. The amount of memory is critical as well. 8GB minimum and 16GB being optimal. What about hard disks? Is it an SSD or M2 boot drive? Is there room in the case and connectors on the motherboard, SATA and power, to support additional drives?

Win10 needs to be Win10/Pro, not Win10/Home. MS Office and anything else are not needed and in an ideal situation should not even be on the BI system.
 

wittaj

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I have seen many do well on a 3rd or 4th gen, maybe even 2nd gen, but a 1st gen CPU might struggle even with substreams.

Unless you are getting it for free, I suspect you could find a better computer at a similar price. A member here picked up some 4th gens for like $37 at a school auction.
 

integrity

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I wouldn't do it, myself. I had an i7-3770K (third gen) for quite a while and while it was fine running 4x 4K cameras in H.264 with direct-to-disk recording, substreams for motion analysis and all the usual tweaks, it started bogging down a bit running DeepStack AI, didn't have hardware acceleration for H.265 and was just generally a bit stretched doing anything beyond being a pass-through NVR.

Look for a sixth gen i7-6700K or later as they support H.265 hardware acceleration - just avoid any chip with an 'F' at the end, as they don't have a graphics processor and can't offload any H.264/H.265 workload.
 
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Thanks so much everybody! I was talking to the guy selling the computer about going over tonight to buy it. I really appreciate the quick responses - it helped me avoid a bad purchase.

Would I be better off with a discrete graphics card or is there something about an intel processor with intel onboard graphics that is more beneficial?
 

wittaj

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Many will say don't buy anything less than an 8th generation due to the availability to update to Win11 in the future and can do H265 hardware acceleration.

Personally, I am like if you can find a 4th gen at a great price, it will work well. We are turning off Windows updates anyway, so who cares LOL.

Around the time DeepStack was introduced, many here had their system become unstable with hardware acceleration on (even if not using DeepStack). Some have also been fine.

This hits everyone at a different point. Some had their system go wonky immediately, some it was after a specific update, and some still don't have a problem, yet the trend is showing running hardware acceleration will result in a problem at some point.

However, with substreams being introduced, the CPU% needed to offload video to a GPU is more than the CPU% savings seen by offloading to a GPU. Especially after about 12 cameras, the CPU goes up by using hardware acceleration.

You now only would use a graphics card if you are using Deepstack and use the GPU to process the DeepStack to improve processing time over the DeepStack CPU version, but do not use it for hardware acceleration within BI.

Many have found that H264 results in a better image than H265 due to the way it macroblocks. When I tested both, the real-world savings of storage for H265 was literally minutes not 30-40% like the claim. And the H264 was a better image.
 
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Interesting. I'd been wondering about H264 vs H265. Storage prices are dropping per TB (as storage always does) and I'll only be running 6-8 cameras at first.

I'd been giving Uniview a hard look based on their reputation, but I'm learning from the forum here that their sensor size, 1/3, may not be the best for night vision. I'm building the system out for my home, so night vision will be critical and it seems I should look to a larger sensor camera. The whole NDAA thing had me concerned at first (Dahua/Hiki) but then I realized that everything is going to be locked down anyway and I'll be using a VPN to view my cameras. (I'll admit that the Uniview sale prices on the store here are tempting though)

Many will say don't buy anything less than an 8th generation due to the availability to update to Win11 in the future and can do H265 hardware acceleration.

Personally, I am like if you can find a 4th gen at a great price, it will work well. We are turning off Windows updates anyway, so who cares LOL.

Around the time DeepStack was introduced, many here had their system become unstable with hardware acceleration on (even if not using DeepStack). Some have also been fine.

This hits everyone at a different point. Some had their system go wonky immediately, some it was after a specific update, and some still don't have a problem, yet the trend is showing running hardware acceleration will result in a problem at some point.

However, with substreams being introduced, the CPU% needed to offload video to a GPU is more than the CPU% savings seen by offloading to a GPU. Especially after about 12 cameras, the CPU goes up by using hardware acceleration.

You now only would use a graphics card if you are using Deepstack and use the GPU to process the DeepStack to improve processing time over the DeepStack CPU version, but do not use it for hardware acceleration within BI.

Many have found that H264 results in a better image than H265 due to the way it macroblocks. When I tested both, the real-world savings of storage for H265 was literally minutes not 30-40% like the claim. And the H264 was a better image.
 
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Also, I would definitely be using the DeepStack because I live on a busy street in front, and we often get deer running through our backyard.
 

wittaj

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You get what you pay for. 1/3" sensor is great for 720P, but a horrible choice for 4MP or 4K.

Yep, isolate your cameras from the internet because EVERY manufacturer has vulnerabilities, even top NDAA compliant AXIS had a breach a couple months back!

Keep in mind if you buy better cameras that have built in AI, then DeepStack isn't really necessary unless you specifically want to be notified of deer. But if only vehicle and people, the AI in the cameras are spot on!



Also keep in mind the focal length is more important than MP. Check out this post I created:




This will explain H264 versus H265 a little better.

H265 in theory provides more storage as it compresses differently, but part of that compression means it macro blocks big areas of the image that it thinks isn't moving. However, it also takes more processing power of the already small CPU in the camera and that can be problematic if someone is maxing out the camera and then it stutters.

In theory it is supposed to need 30% less storage than H264, but most of us have found it isn't that much. Mine was less than few minutes per day. And to my eye and others that I showed clips to and just said do you like video 1 or video 2 better, everyone thought the H264 provided a better image.

The left image is H264, so all the blocks are the same size corresponding to the resolution of the camera. H265 takes areas that it doesn't think has motion and makes them into bigger blocks and in doing so lessens the resolution yet increases the CPU demand to develop these larger blocks.

In theory H265 is supposed to need half the bitrate because of the macroblocking. But if there is a lot of motion in the image, then it becomes a pixelated mess. The only way to get around that is a higher bitrate. But if you need to run the same bitrate for H265 as you do H264, then the storage savings is zero. Storage is computed based on multiplying bitrate, FPS, and resolution.


1638584913822.png




In my testing I have one camera that sees a parked car in front of my house. H265 sees that the car isn't moving, so it macroblocks the whole car and surrounding area. Then the car owner walked up to the car and got in and the motion is missed because the macroblock being so large. Or if it catches it, because the bitrate is low, it is a pixelated mess during the critical capture point and by the time H265 adjusts to there is now motion, the ideal capture is missed.

In my case, the car is clear and defined in H264, but is blurry and soft edges in H265.

Digital zooming is never really good, but you stand a better chance with H264 than a large macroblocked H265. I can digital zoom on my overview camera and kinda make out the address number of the house across the street with H264, but not a chance with H265.

H265 is one of those theory things that sounds good, but reality use is much different.

As always, YMMV. But do not use Codec with BI or you may have trouble, so just stick with H264 without the H or B or + after.
 

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I'm running my setup on a 3rd gen I7. Most of the time, I have 25 IP cams going. Add to that 2 USB cams any time my 3D printer is going (like right now) plus 3 non-cams with weather related info on an otherwise blank screen (Screen capture). I use substreams on all of the IP cams. Looking over at it right now, I see it's at 40% CPU. It just keeps running and running. As always, YMMV...



Edit: all the IP cams record 24/7
 

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mat200

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I have a microcenter store near me. I was just checking this one out. Seems like a solid deal with 16GB RAM and 6th gen i5 + Win 10 Pro and Intel graphics. Not sure if it's got room for a 3.5 HDD for the video (specs are confusing).

For a use business class PC I would also look at

Amazon, Ebay, Craigslist

example Amazon recently had a better Dell 50xx series optixplex for $120-150 ..
 

Mike A.

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...Not sure if it's got room for a 3.5 HDD for the video (specs are confusing).
There's a space to mount one 3.5" drive. The advantage of the EliteDesk above is a space for a second drive if that matters to you.

MicroCenter is easy but you can find better deals for that. Not much there right now but beyond Amazon, ebay, etc., at dellrefurbished.com there's 50% off desktops through tomorrow night. They add stuff at times so might watch there too. The 7040 tower i7-6700 with 256 NVMe 16GB 500GB HD was ~$200 through another sale.
 

looney2ns

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I have a microcenter store near me. I was just checking this one out. Seems like a solid deal with 16GB RAM and 6th gen i5 + Win 10 Pro and Intel graphics. Not sure if it's got room for a 3.5 HDD for the video (specs are confusing).

For $50 less, you can get a much newer and many times more powerful gen processor. See the one I listed.
 
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I'm seeing some Xeon powered workstations on ebay with the same or better specs than some of the business and personal class desktops. Would a Xeon processor be the same/better/worse than an i5/i7?
 

concord

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Most Xeon processors do not include the GPU within the CPU, unlike most i3->i7 processors, so it may need a separate GPU (graphics) card. Normally, a Xeon processor is used for critical operations, such as servers and require ECC RAM (Error Correction Code memory, which includes a parity bit to ensure ram data isn't corrupt). Also, Xeons are used in workstation systems that use CAD/CAM, etc. software, along with a good GPU card.
 

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wittaj

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With the substreams, an internal or external GPU is not needed and can actually cause stability issues with hardware acceleration since Deepstack was introduced.
 
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