Worlds First Review - Dahua - IPC-Color4K-X / DH-IPC-HFW5849T1-ASE-LED - Full Color 4K Camera

wittaj

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H264 or H264H. I didn't see any improvement with the added H and I know BI prefers simple H264 or H265, so I run H264
 

David L

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H264 or H264H. I didn't see any improvement with the added H and I know BI prefers simple H264 or H265, so I run H264
I don't know the difference but I think I use H on a suggestion by Wildcat_1

Most definitely had issues trying H.265. Maybe need more processing power from my BI PC...do plan on upgrading it one day, may try H.265 then. It is definitely a space saver...
 

IAmWatchingYou!

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I tested with H264H, H264, and H265. They all ended up producing the same results after 60s or so. I'll have to play around a bit and see if motion in that area of the image kicks back up the bit rate.

Regarding the white dots, they are static and move when I move the camera slightly and stay in the exact position relative to the viewing device. I think this means I got a bad sensor in this 4k-X.
 

wittaj

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I tested with H264H, H264, and H265. They all ended up producing the same results after 60s or so. I'll have to play around a bit and see if motion in that area of the image kicks back up the bit rate.

Regarding the white dots, they are static and move when I move the camera slightly and stay in the exact position relative to the viewing device. I think this means I got a bad sensor in this 4k-X.
That is what our cameras do as well. Add more light and the dots go away.... a dead pixel would stay dead regardless of light or color. With enough light the white will change color.

Reread the turret thread.
 
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IAmWatchingYou!

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Yes you're correct about a dead pixel. So rather, this would be an issue with defective pixels, not a dead pixels - defective in that the pixel in the sensor is not sensing / reporting accurately.
It's always the same position pixels on the sensor that are affected and turn white when there is little light.

Regarding the audio, on both the 4k-T and the 4k-X, I set the bit rate on the AAC codec to 64000 and that made a big difference with the overpowering digital noise on the 4k-T, and the quality and noise on the 4k-X as well. So, there must be some issue with however the audio is being sampled from the microphone. It would be great if it were some sort of software issue that could be corrected, but my bet is that it's the analog to digital converter chip they're using, especially with the type of noise that's produces when you reduce the sample rate.
 

wittaj

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Yeah mine does that on the pixels as well. It is not a defective pixel but rather it is simply a matter of how it is pixel mapped and how the algorithm is trying to produce an image in low light conditions. It could be corrected in a firmware update and they may do so in the future, but most of us would prefer this than if the modification results in the camera needing even more light. Cause that is the solution - just not give you an image if the camera deems not enough light.

Either provide more light, recognize that it doesn't impact the intent of the camera, or get a camera with infrared if the dots bother you that much.
 

quest100

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All sensors, unless you have NASA’s budget, have dead pixels. They usually get mapped out and replaced by neighboring pixels and never noticed. There are also hot pixels - they have a higher noise or bias level. This sounds more like hot pixels that are not mapped out correctly.
 

EMPIRETECANDY

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The white dot we talked a lot on the 4KT or hikvision colorvu, any cameras, this is not dead pixels, when camera using at low light place the camera try to get gain up, when gain up, there will have white dot comes, the only way is to improve the light situation there in the night. Backlight compensation means that in places where the light is low, the software uses technical processing to make the image brighter, but the picture will be a little distorted. Dahua said can take off those dot, but will badly effect the pics at night.

@Wildcat_1 make some explaination here, that is right what we get from dahua too.
1 - Algorithm Related - Due to the tech employed by the algorithm itself on full color cams you do see digital elements such as the white dots on these full color cams in very dark or pitch black areas. Testing for this would be to raise exposure super high during the day and/or at night (basically creating a very dark scene), look for where the identified dots show up and see if they're static (never move on screen). If you see them 'sparkling' and / or if you see them change position on screen within the FOV, this is generally algorithm related.

So guys want to watch more for the explanation ,can refer to this link. Any camera need light, you can't compare the 1/1.2cmos can work perfect as thousand USD camera's pics, esp in the night. It's mainly for security not making a film. Later new tech on new chips will make the pics better.

Worlds First Review - Dahua DH-IPC-HDW5849H-ASE-LED / IPC-Color4K-T - 2.8mm Turret | Page 28 | IP Cam Talk

We also test on 1/1.8cmos IR model too, same dots.

1668581569614.png
 
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IAmWatchingYou!

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@EMPIRETECANDY
Regarding the white dots that appear on my 4k-X, these problematic pixels are always the exact same pixels, the same number, and in the exact same position on the sensor. They do not come and go or change position when the camera is moved or the image is changed. These pixels simply seem to lose the capability to accurately sense.

I can't imagine there being something in an algorithm that says to treat the 12 pixels at x,y coordinates (500,250), (750, 1000), etc. etc. differently from pixels on the rest of the image received from the sensor.
 

EMPIRETECANDY

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@EMPIRETECANDY
Regarding the white dots that appear on my 4k-X, these problematic pixels are always the exact same pixels, the same number, and in the exact same position on the sensor. They do not come and go or change position when the camera is moved or the image is changed. These pixels simply seem to lose the capability to accurately sense.
ese pixels simply seem to lose the capability to accurately sense.------Do you have any further testing what is the rate to offer wrong alarms? The best way is to add more light in the night if you want a perfect pic, currently the camera tech still on progressing, still have a long way to go. Maybe 3-4 years later we watch back today's cameras they are all working poor. :D
 

wittaj

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My 4K/X pixels don't move either if I take away the light and move the camera around. But once I add light the problem goes away.

I have dealt with enough issues of dead or hot pixels on other devices to know when that is happening and that isn't the case with the camera. If you are seeing the dots, you are pushing the limits of the capability of the camera - add more light. The cameras are good, but they can't work magic and do need a minimum amount of light or you will see issues.
 

EMPIRETECANDY

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We have some very sharp long range IR distance models, if you watch very carefully, too many white dots, but the black and white pic not easy to watch out. But if turn to color pic will be worse. This is a 4mp Bullet long range camera. IPC-B5442E-Z4E as a example. But i like this pic too. :D

1668611998026.jpeg
 

CCTVCam

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Isn't the point of VBR to conserve bandwidth and storage, by recognizing when there's no motion? I did crank the bit rate up like you said and that did correct the issue - thanks. So, now I'm left wondering:
1. Why the 4k-T works fine with a still image and the same settings.
2. The actual bandwidth consumed with different settings. I'll have to find a tool to analyze that.
It does conserve bitrate. The issue is 2048 is already low and the only place for VBR to go to save bit rate from there is down. The fact it goes so low seems to be an algorythmn issue as I would have thought Dahua would have limited it's range. That said, irrespective, 2048 is too low. 2048 is as low as I'd want a camera to go using VBR not a starting point.

As said above, you need at least 10,000 for the mainstream for an 8mp sensor (4k).


I tested with H264H, H264, and H265. They all ended up producing the same results after 60s or so. I'll have to play around a bit and see if motion in that area of the image kicks back up the bit rate.

Regarding the white dots, they are static and move when I move the camera slightly and stay in the exact position relative to the viewing device. I think this means I got a bad sensor in this 4k-X.
...because 2048 is too low. Again, you need 10,000+ on an 8mp camera.

The more pixels, the more information there is to store as each pixel contributes information so an 8mp sensor will produce 4x more information than a 2mp camera thus theoretically requiring 4x as much space to store it all. Without the extra space, the only way to store it is compression and the more you compress something, the more likely it becomes the compression will cause artefacts and blur.

Try setting it to around 14,000 on VBR and see if you have the same issues. That said, most use CBR also for the reason above namely VBR doesn't appear to have limits on these cameras as to how low it can go. I'd still be surprised if you didn't see an improvement on VBR though.
 

Zak

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I have now after long waiting desided to order 3-4 of these DH-IPC-HFW5849T1-ASE-LED (possibly the Andys' unbranded ones Color4k-X). I have waited for the prices to come down but it seems that they are not. It seems that Dahua rather EOL and sell the stocks out than just lower the prices when the product mature.

Couple of urgent questions for you before I buy:

1) Specs says that Main stream: 3840 × 2160 @(1 fps–25/30 fps) . Which one is it 25 or 30? I prefer 30 but does does it need change PAL to NTSC and/or switch off smart/AI abilities? I want it to record 3860x2160/30fps here in Europe.

2) I think that at the same time than this 5849T1 Dahua announced model IPC-HFW3849T1-AS-PV-S3. Now this 3849T1 model is already EOL ! Do you know if this 5849T is going to EOL soon because it seems to be same specs without Fullcolor? Does anyone have any info of the replacing model? When it does how long usually Dahua provide firmware upgrades to EOL cameras?

3) Does Dahua still record videos with FTP to NAS with this .dav/.idx format? Hikvision record ONLY still pictures with FTP and NOT videos which was a nasty surprise. I prefer FTP over NFS to NAS.

4) These Fullcolor cameras do not use/have IR, right? In my yard I have always some ambient city lights therefore it is not a big issue to use white light. Up here in the north summer nights are always bright and snow in the winter reflects the ambient lights effectly and therefore I assume that I do not use white LEDs of camera maybe at all. But in the darkest cloudy/rainy nights of the late autumn I may need some extra white lights provided by these LEDs of the cameras, maybe. Can these cameras see movement in basically pitch-black nights and when ambient light is not enough the camera switch on LED(s) automatically? The camera LEDs should be on only when needed. Are the LEDs automatically adjusted based on the ambient light or I just need to preset the lever they are on (meaning that how smart is the warm light control)?

Andy maybe would be the best to answer these questions. Andy? Comments?

Thanks in advance for your answers.
 

Zak

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You only need 15ps for perfectly good video. 30fps will just double your storage requirements for no gain.
My drone is 4k 60fps/120fps, computers/monitors are all 4k 60fps and 120fps, TVs are 4k 120fps (OLED), dashcam is 60fps, tablets (Tab S8 Ultra) are 120fps, ... everything is 4k 60fps if possible. Not because I need but because I want. ;)

Present 4k CCTVs are 20fps and fast movement in the yard or home street is blurry. I may need 15fps but I want 30fps or more.

I do want smooth movement videos and not comic book -style series of still pictures.

I want every record to be "a movie" and not just proof that someone/something stepped into or dropped to my yard. Like "movies" of four legged and two legged "wild life" doing their things in my yard. I definitely want to see clearly and closely before I rush to the yard if the two-legged hairy looking dude partly in my trashcan looking for something has a small tail or not, if you know what i mean.

I have at the moment 108TB of HDD space in my home NAS. Storage is not an issue. Money can buy more if I need/want.
 

wittaj

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These cameras serve a different purpose than drones and gopros...

FPS isn't what fixes blur, it is shutter speed.... FPS only addresses smoothness... My plate camera recording 8FPS with a 1/2000 shutter gets clean images, whereas my neighbors 30FPS on auto settings results in blur...

Running a camera at every rated spec can cause other issues and impact image quality.

Keep in mind that these type of cameras, although are spec'd and capable of these various parameters, real world testing by many of us shows if you try to run these units at higher FPS and higher bitrates than needed that you will max out the CPU in the unit and then it bugs out just long enough that you miss something or video is choppy or pixelated or you get lost signals. My car is rated for 6,000RPM redline, but I am not gonna run it in 3rd gear on the highway at 6,000RPM...same with these types of units - gotta keep them under rated capacity. Some may do better than others, but trying to use the rated "spec" of an option available is usually not going to work well, either with a car or a camera or NVR.

Or growing up and my parents are driving on the highway up a steep grade, in the summer we would hit the turbo button (turn off the AC LOL) on our little 4 cylinder so that we could stay the speed limit going up the hill. Same thing running a camera at rated spec.

Look at all the threads where people came here with a jitter in the video or video dropping signal or IVS missing motion or the SD card doesn't overwrite or despite the proper shutter speed they can't get a good freeze frame picture and they were running 30FPS and when people tell them to drop the FPS and they dropped the FPS to 15FPS the camera became stable and they could actual freeze frame the image to get a clean capture. The goal of these cameras are to capture a perp, not capture smooth motion. When we see the news, are they showing the video or a freeze frame screen shot? Nobody cares if it isn't butter smooth...getting the features to make an ID is the important factor. As always, YMMV...

Further, these types of cameras are not GoPro or Hollywood type cameras that offer slow-mo capabilities and other features. They "offer" 30FPS and 60FPS to appease the general public that thinks that is what they need, but you will not find many of us here running more than 15 FPS; and movies are shot at 24 FPS, so anything above that is a waste of storage space for what these cameras are used for. If 24 FPS works for the big screen, I think 15 FPS is more than enough for phones and tablets and most monitors LOL. Many of my cameras are running at 12FPS.

In fact, many times if a CPU is maxing out, if it doesn't drop signal, then it will adhere to the FPS but then slow the shutter down to try to not max the CPU or cut bitrate or be slow to detect an object, etc, which then produces a smooth blurry image..that is the video my neighbor gets who insists on running 60FPS. He gets smooth walking people but you can't freeze frame it cause every frame is a blur, meanwhile my 12FPS gets the clean freeze frame. Shutter speed is more important the FPS. We both run the same shutter speed by the way, but his camera CPU is maxing out and something gotta give when you push it that hard.

Sure 30 or 60FPS can provide a smoother video but no police officer has said "wow that person really is running smooth". They want the ability to freeze frame and get a clean image. So be it if the video is a little choppy....and at 10-15FPS it won't be appreciable. My neighbor runs his at 60FPS, so the person or car goes by looking smooth, but it is a blur when trying to freeze frame it because the camera can't keep up with his other settings.. Meanwhile my camera at 15FPS with the proper shutter speed gets the clean shots.


So a few of my cams have a system status screen, and they call it a CPU, so that is why I am calling it a CPU, but this shows this camera running at 8192 bitrate, H264, CBR, and 12 FPS is hitting the camera processor at 47% and jumps to 70% with motion. If I up the camera to 30 FPS, the usage is in the high 90% range, but then with motion, it maxes out and would get unstable.

Or if I keep it at 12 FPS and use the camera motion detection, the CPU in the camera goes to 60% idle.

This would be nice if all cams had this so we could see how our settings impact the performance of the camera. I think running these cams close to capacity is probably harder to overcome than a computer spike at 100% CPU.

At the end of the day, if the consumer wants cameras that can do 30FPS, they will not look at any cameras that do not have that rated spec, so some companies will throw that in to appease the person looking for that. Unfortunately, that is marketing. It takes someone with experience in the industry to know for sure if it is really capable of what marketing says.

And in a few scenarios maybe you can squeak 30FPS out of these cameras - maybe without using IVS or motion detection and just watching a simple feed. But maybe when two users log in, it can't handle it for example. The more features you use, the less likely it will work as one expects.

And if the complaints get bad enough, we have seen firmware updates to popular models that do just that - cut FPS or some other feature...

1669132511834.png

We wouldn't take these cameras to an NBA game to broadcast, nor would we take the cameras they use at an NBA game to put on a house. Not all cameras are alike and the approach of "a camera is a camera" mentality will result in failure. Another example, I can watch an MLB game and they can slow it down to see the stitching on the baseball. Surveillance cams are not capable of that, so more FPS isn't needed and is simply a waste of storage space and potentially causing something to be missed while the camera CPU is maxing out.
 
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Zak

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The processors of integrated systems (like CCTVs) are not 100% utilized all the time. That is impossible because then the software would not run smoothly and something important like AI is dropped off. If not frames but analyzing and using AI from the streams. They are calculated so that like 80% processor power is in constant usage. There has to be margin always.

Reading plates I think is a bit different story because you do not need to see plate moving. Only shot(s) from best angle is enough to read it.

If you run 6000rpm your van it does not mean that you are using it in full structural power. You are using it in the limited max rpm which the manufacturer has decided to be safe to your engine. I bet the same thing with the integrated systems like cctvs. Cooling must be designed so that the processor (and other electronics) can be safely used in full power (which in practice is like 80%). I do not know if that is the case with Dahua (or Hikvision or others) but that's the way it should be.

I am not making with CCTVs movies for theaters but I want to save the pictures, not only for PD, but mainly for me and my family. Nice videos of daily life in my yard. Like family photos. Like kids playing in the yards and something funny happens. The only way to record these happy and funny incidents is cctv because normally when kids use their imagination and try "something new" the adults are not present (and/or cameras ready). Or, like couple of years ago, a huge dust devil (more like small twister) ran around the neighbourhood and cut fruit trees and broke some roofs, and died out just to my yard barrier bush and did not enter to the yard (lucky me) but totally destroyed for example neighbours' greenhouse. Things like these are memories provided by surveillance cameras. Therefore fps (smoothness) is important. Do you now get my idea why fps is important to me? (Not because I need but because I want)

Naturally if fps and resolution is important there is a lot of CPU power needed. The more expensive camera the better processor it should include. The other way is to interpolate pictures and use other prediction methods just to make more pictures but I think that is cheating. I do not know how much chinese camera makers cheat like this to cut costs and to sell cameras with specs.

With lower fps (or bitrate) there is nasty side effects (like blur or shadows or whatever). Fine tuning of cameras naturally can help but it makes no difference to me.

I do not have NVR device. Just this NAS and I watch the videos "raw" with the windows/linux/android -player. Thus the CPU data overload is not an issue.

But before this discussion is focusing totally to fps there are issues in my post earlier. Anyone any info about those EOL, FTP and LED-issues? They are important for my purchase.

This 5849T1 is not the only option to me but this is the model I prefer at the moment. Is there another model/manufacturer which could be better for me? (I talked with Andy a few months ago and he said that 2087G2 is a bit inferior to this 5849T1). Which one you experts recommend for my purpose. As I said earlier, seeing in the dark is very important to me. If I can see in full color in the dark that would be really nice, but is that in reality only gimmick - I do not know (yet).

BTW: How do I check CPU usage of my Hik 4k cameras? My present 4k ones have been running "all-in" with the video quality and bandwidth for years without any issues with the electronics or picture quality 24/7 in heat and frost. Only once when a bird desided to nest on one camera and pecked the CAT cable then the picture quality had some issues. Also watching the live streams is not a problem. I can run easily 8 live 4k/20fps (main) streams in my main computer without dropping a frame. I use mpv-player to run the rtsp-streams and drop counter is always zero in every stream. CPU utilization of my computer with these 8 cam streams, a lot of open browsers/sites and other stuff heavier applications and CPU is running about <5%. (10G network)

Edit: How can I see drop counter of my camera firmware? Network is working fine but electronics of the camera may from frames before it create the stream. Still, I have not noted any unusual delays in the videos and the saved records has zero frames missing.
 
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wittaj

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Real world experience with these cameras tell us differently...We cannot tell you how much better someones images and stability of their system got once they quit running the cameras at close to rated specs. Look at all the threads where once someone got off their Hollywood 30FPS and reluctantly dropped the FPS to 15FPS and all of sudden their system became stable, the image quality improved, etc...

This camera is a great camera, but all cameras need light - simple physics. You either need to have enough light, use the built-in light, or go with a camera with infrared capabilitiies.

FPS and bitrate are two totally different things. Shutter speed stops blur. I have not seen how FPS impacts shadows, but ok....

Again, it is shutter speed that affects blur, not FPS. A properly adjusted camera with the correct shutter speed and running 15FPS will give you smooth and blur free video...

Watch these, for most of us, it isn't annoying until below 10FPS, and certainly sufficient enough for anything these cameras are intended to capture...and certainly enough for what you want to capture. But hey go for blur and 30 FPS....





Please create a different thread if you would like to continue this discussion or do a search on the lots of threads out there demonstrating and discussing this. This thread is about a particular camera....
 
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