Struggling to know what to look for!

[mattodinaturas]

Hi all

I am looking for new cameras to replace my 15 years old vivotek system, which is close to useless in terms of image quality.

A friend of mine suggested me the brand Annke, as it is a budget oriented hikvision spinoff. I was close to ordering 4 C800 turret cameras (I9DM) paired with a NR168 NVR (I need the NVR to be 16ch, since I already have 4 indoor ezviz cameras which I want to feed into it). The total price comes close to 540 euros, including a 4tb HDD.
However, as I was lurking on this forum, I realized that the sensor is tiny (1/2,5") and in low light the image will be utterly terrible. As I'm mostly interested in low light conditions, this is unacceptable.

I am wondering if there are other options (any brand) which will guarantee a better night image clarity, while still not breaking the bank. The dual light (IR+white) option seemed compelling, but I read that the white light isn't just bright enough to see people at night. Maybe it would be beneficial to mount a separate led outdoor light close to the cameras (triggered by PIR) to illuminate the scene?

My total budget is around 600 euros.

Thank you very much for your help!!

 

[Arjun]

Your best bet is to refer to the forum Cliff Notes

IP Cam Talk Cliff Notes

Information in this section was contributed by [URL='https://ipcamtalk.com/members/mat200.29441/'][COLOR=#0000b3]@matt200[/COLOR][/URL] and [URL='https://ipcamtalk.com/members/giomania.36271/'][COLOR=#0000b3]@giomania [/COLOR][/URL] [/LIST] Any dedicated manufacturer NVR should match...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[wittaj]

Welcome!

Without knowing what your goals of the camera is, this thread is used as the go to for the new person here outlining the commonly recommended cameras (along with Amazon links) based on distance to IDENTIFY that represent the overall best value/best bang for the buck in terms of price and performance day and night. It might be a 2MP camera in some instances. Many here feel 4MP is the current sweet spot for these cameras.

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

And coupled with that thread is this great thread which will show why all of the same 2.8 or 3.6mm cameras is the wrong choice (these are the common focal lengths consumer brands sell):

i-want-2-8mm-cameras-everywhere-to-see-everything-this-is-why-you-need-specific-fovs-with-purposeful-focal-lengths.70053/

We would encourage you to look at those threads in detail.

It will probably raise more questions than answers LOL.

 

[mattodinaturas]

Hi Arjun and wittaj, many thanks for redirecting me to the appropriate documentation. It sure is a nice forum the one in which the newbie is welcomed and instructed as soon as he enters I'm sorry for the late reply but it wasn't easy to elaborate on everything you sent. It was an eye opener, as I did not know anything about focal lenght and the DORI scheme, now I feel much more confident in picking the right cameras.

As i said, the initial plan is to deploy 4-5 cameras. Below, you can see the output of my current crap IP7330s. They all have a 4 mm focal length, 56° horizontal aperture, are placed at 2.5m from ground (they cannot be mounted higher, as there is the soffit not much higher) and are all bullet cameras. I want to switch to turret, which, if I understood correctly, should be harder to turn by hand (during the last break-in, the thieves bent the holding arm of the IP7730s).

Regarding the first image, you may already see the issue. It pictures a "middle" semi-choke point, to pass externally from one side of the house to the other. I would like to at least Recognize a person at the end of the red walkway (15 meters away), while still Identifying people crossing the choke point towards the camera (space from the wall on the left to the railing on the right) and being able to see the window on the bottom left. I wouldn't go above the current 4 mm in this case I guess, due to the close window, but according to this calculator I would not be in total luck, as with a 3MP 1/2.8'' 4 mm sensor the Recognize distance is max 12.5 m. But I guess a tradeoff is needed. I will return to this later.

As for the second image, I am not sure about what is best. Out of the FOV on the left there is a good choke point, but a bit covered by some hedge. As for the most important points of entry, we have the door, on the right of the image, and a small window, which is on the wall on the left of the siren, perpendicular to the wall of the door. It is above the small dirt terrace on the center of the image. (I'm sorry, I'm not very good at explaining ahah). I am VERY interested in Identifying people close to the door and the window, respectively 4 and 6 meters away. I am also interested in viewing the black "top" on the bottom, as the cats really like to jump onto it and trigger the alarm. Should I look again for a 4 mm camera (same as the current one)?

Still regarding the second image, there is a second camera, currently off, close to the siren; I don't have it's image as it is currently off. I don't think it's in a great spot, as it covers just the door and obv not the small window (target of multiple break-ins). Maybe it would be better to rotate it facing in the other direction, to cover very well the choke point I was talking about? From there, the hedge does not cover the small gate. In this case, the choke point would be 5 meters away.

Finally, the last image. Same as before, just on the other side of the house. Here, I need to Identify people both at the door and at the small window on the dirt terrace. They are again 4 and 6 meters away, respectively. On the other side of the corner, though, I can place a camera facing the one in the second image. Or, maybe better, with this new camera I can cover the choke point of this side of the home. In this case the choke point is 6 meters away from the camera, but the FOV must be a bit wide, close to 120°



And that's all regarding the camera placement. Now, let's talking about brands and misc.

I was tempted to buy Annke brand, as it is cheap and hik-similar. The C300 seemed the best option: 3MP + 1/2.8'', which is acceptable according to your wiki for night identification. However, it has a 2.8mm focal lenght, which just isn't optimal for my case, I guess? But I'm asking your opinion because I do not know what is best. The problem with Annke is that they offer few models and every one of them has a 2.8 mm lens, it seems...
All things considered, which brands do you suggest? They have to be cheap enough (e.g. not Ubiquiti lol), with a good choice of cameras (especially regarding focal lenght), all paired to NVR capable of human detection and recording of my indoor Ezviz cameras.

Last question: how much beneficial would supplemental light be? I really like the idea of dual light cameras, but I read that the white light just isn't bright enough. I was thinking of placing automatic LED spotlight on the corners of the home, below or above the cameras. Will the cameras be affected by an intense light souce right beside them? Will the light be beneficial for Identification, other than acting as a deterrent?


I'm very grateful for your help and for you to have gone though this wall of text. I have trouble explaining in detail and writing in acceptable English lol, but I hope I was clear enough about my needs and doubts. Again, I can't thank you enough

 

[mat200]

Hi Arjun and wittaj, many thanks for redirecting me to the appropriate documentation. It sure is a nice forum the one in which the newbie is welcomed and instructed as soon as he enters I'm sorry for the late reply but it wasn't easy to elaborate on everything you sent. It was an eye opener, as I did not know anything about focal lenght and the DORI scheme, now I feel much more confident in picking the right cameras.

As i said, the initial plan is to deploy 4-5 cameras. Below, you can see the output of my current crap IP7330s. They all have a 4 mm focal length, 56° horizontal aperture, are placed at 2.5m from ground (they cannot be mounted higher, as there is the soffit not much higher) and are all bullet cameras. I want to switch to turret, which, if I understood correctly, should be harder to turn by hand (during the last break-in, the thieves bent the holding arm of the IP7730s).

Regarding the first image, you may already see the issue. It pictures a "middle" semi-choke point, to pass externally from one side of the house to the other. I would like to at least Recognize a person at the end of the red walkway (15 meters away), while still Identifying people crossing the choke point towards the camera (space from the wall on the left to the railing on the right) and being able to see the window on the bottom left. I wouldn't go above the current 4 mm in this case I guess, due to the close window, but according to this calculator I would not be in total luck, as with a 3MP 1/2.8'' 4 mm sensor the Recognize distance is max 12.5 m. But I guess a tradeoff is needed. I will return to this later.

As for the second image, I am not sure about what is best. Out of the FOV on the left there is a good choke point, but a bit covered by some hedge. As for the most important points of entry, we have the door, on the right of the image, and a small window, which is on the wall on the left of the siren, perpendicular to the wall of the door. It is above the small dirt terrace on the center of the image. (I'm sorry, I'm not very good at explaining ahah). I am VERY interested in Identifying people close to the door and the window, respectively 4 and 6 meters away. I am also interested in viewing the black "top" on the bottom, as the cats really like to jump onto it and trigger the alarm. Should I look again for a 4 mm camera (same as the current one)?

Still regarding the second image, there is a second camera, currently off, close to the siren; I don't have it's image as it is currently off. I don't think it's in a great spot, as it covers just the door and obv not the small window (target of multiple break-ins). Maybe it would be better to rotate it facing in the other direction, to cover very well the choke point I was talking about? From there, the hedge does not cover the small gate. In this case, the choke point would be 5 meters away.

Finally, the last image. Same as before, just on the other side of the house. Here, I need to Identify people both at the door and at the small window on the dirt terrace. They are again 4 and 6 meters away, respectively. On the other side of the corner, though, I can place a camera facing the one in the second image. Or, maybe better, with this new camera I can cover the choke point of this side of the home. In this case the choke point is 6 meters away from the camera, but the FOV must be a bit wide, close to 120°



And that's all regarding the camera placement. Now, let's talking about brands and misc.

I was tempted to buy Annke brand, as it is cheap and hik-similar. The C300 seemed the best option: 3MP + 1/2.8'', which is acceptable according to your wiki for night identification. However, it has a 2.8mm focal lenght, which just isn't optimal for my case, I guess? But I'm asking your opinion because I do not know what is best. The problem with Annke is that they offer few models and every one of them has a 2.8 mm lens, it seems...
All things considered, which brands do you suggest? They have to be cheap enough (e.g. not Ubiquiti lol), with a good choice of cameras (especially regarding focal lenght), all paired to NVR capable of human detection and recording of my indoor Ezviz cameras.

Last question: how much beneficial would supplemental light be? I really like the idea of dual light cameras, but I read that the white light just isn't bright enough. I was thinking of placing automatic LED spotlight on the corners of the home, below or above the cameras. Will the cameras be affected by an intense light souce right beside them? Will the light be beneficial for Identification, other than acting as a deterrent?


I'm very grateful for your help and for you to have gone though this wall of text. I have trouble explaining in detail and writing in acceptable English lol, but I hope I was clear enough about my needs and doubts. Again, I can't thank you enough

Welcome to the forum

If you can afford it, try to get cameras which have larger sensors, and a good pixel to sensor size.

Note, many kits sold do not include the cabling - so you will need to run the cabling if you do not already have good cabling up.

I would consider some of the newer dual lens models if you are limited to 4 locations.

 

[mattodinaturas]

Welcome to the forum

If you can afford it, try to get cameras which have larger sensors, and a good pixel to sensor size.

Note, many kits sold do not include the cabling - so you will need to run the cabling if you do not already have good cabling up.

I would consider some of the newer dual lens models if you are limited to 4 locations.

Hi mat200, thank you for your suggestions.

For pixel to sensor size, I'm referring to the chart present in this thread. As for the cabling, it isn't necessary, my current cameras are already IP. I confirm to have just 4 locations to which an ethernet cable each is routed, I can however split the ethernet in two 2 pair cables to have in total 8 cameras. One location already has a split cable

I will definitely look into the dual lens models, I didn't think about them much. Thank you very much!

 

[mat200]

Hi mat200, thank you for your suggestions.

For pixel to sensor size, I'm referring to the chart present in this thread. As for the cabling, it isn't necessary, my current cameras are already IP. I confirm to have just 4 locations to which an ethernet cable each is routed, I can however split the ethernet in two 2 pair cables to have in total 8 cameras. One location already has a split cable

I will definitely look into the dual lens models, I didn't think about them much. Thank you very much!

Do look at the sensor size specs .. for example



1/2.4" is smaller than 1/1.8"

 

[mattodinaturas]

Do look at the sensor size specs .. for example

View attachment 245988

1/2.4" is smaller than 1/1.8"

I am having a lot of trouble finding cameras with an adequate sensor size, considering the resolution. 99% of them fall under red in this chart; then, most of the time, they are available only with a 2.8 mm lens.

 

[wittaj]

That is why I put links in that post - there are not many that meet the green.