Recommendation Needed: 30x Optical Zoom

M

mkjr75

n3wb
Nov 10, 2022
20
1
United States
I have a small BI setup with only 3 cameras.
One of my cameras is shooting the end of my driveway which is approximately 400ft away from the camera.

I'm currently using this device: Amazon.com
I'd say that I'm mildly pleased with it. It was cheap and a good way to see if the size camera would work for my application. I consistently get 15fps at 2MP on the main stream.
The built in IR light works reasonably well for my needs but it doesn't quite shoot where the camera is aimed at about 90% zoom.

Now that it's been about 2 years with it, I feel it is time for an upgrade. I've recently started having trouble with the main and sub streams getting out of sync which creates interesting problems in BI.
I think by tweaking the bitrates I've got that somewhat under control but I'd like something with better clarity if it comes at a reasonable price.

I'm not familiar with any of the major manufacturers offerings at this level of device. I'm hoping someone has some experience with a device with this kind of range and can provide their experiences, good or bad.

I'd like to keep the PTZ (although not a dealbreaker) and IR if possible. I'm not sure I could get permission for a big IR light.
Thanks in advance,
Mike
 
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Empiretech is made by Dahua...and is Dahua OEM (dahua without the logo)

Amcrest is made by Dahua....but is a consumer line with less than ideal MP/sensor and cheaper materials.

That Amcrest is on a sensor designed for 2MP so it will perform poorly at night. You are paying a premium for the Amcrest name dropped to it. A comparable Empiretech would be almost half that price.

The Empiretech linked above, while a little more expensive, will run circles around the amcrest as it is on the ideal MP/sensor ratio.
 
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Do not be deceived by the optical zoom numbers. Dahua and Empire Tec provide the focal length which is used to determine the optical zoom. A good example is on the PTZ5A-25X that looney2ns mentioned above. It provides 5.4mm-135mm vari-focal which equates to 25X optical. Most of the cheaper cameras only provide an enticing number which is deceiving. Then they add a "digital zoom" which is worthless. You can get that within BI.
I took a couple quick pics as an example. I used an older Empire Tec 25x camera at 250 yards and an unknown name 30x Chinese camera focused on the same area from 240 yards. It was raining so quality is not good but will show how the 25x out zooms the 30x. The top photo is from the 30x and both are fully zoomed.
30x240yds.JPG25x250yds.JPG
 
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So I just purchased this camera. Except on the site for $60 more I opted for the 8MP 4K version.
After some research (I have not yet received the camera - should be here today), the 4K may not have been a good choice.
Can anyone confirm? If the quality is not great, can I step it down to 4MP and recover the quality?
I'm using this to capture the end of my driveway, 400ft away from the camera.
 
Sadly you made a mistake....and at 400 feet at night...It is why we say chase sensor size and not MP. More MP is not better if it is not on the ideal MP/sensor ratio. 8MP on thee ideal MP/sensor ratio goes for $2k.

Downrezing a camera does not work - It is still using the 8 million pixels - the camera doesn't change the "pixel resolution screen" on the camera when you go from 8MP to 4MP. The sensor still needs 2 times the light going from 8MP to 4MP, so the native 4MP camera will result in a better image at night. The firmware will make some algorithm attempt at downrezing it, but it could be a complete crap image or a somewhat usable image, but if there is a concern that the 8MP isn't performing or wouldn't perform well at night, then it is better to go with the 4MP.

I have a 4MP and 2MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor and the picture quality is quite different between the two and the 2MP kicks it's butt at night.

In most instances, you want to get a camera that will perform at your location for the worse situation, which for most of us is at night when it is dark and there is little to no light. If a camera performs at night, it is easier to tweak settings to make it work during the day than it is the other way around.

My 2MP cameras outperform my neighbors 4K (8MP) cameras....why....because they are both on the same size sensor.

When we had a thief come thru here and get into a lot of cars, the police couldn't use one video or photo from anyone's system but mine. Not even my other neighbors $1,300 8MP system provided useful info - the cams just didn't cut it at night.

My neighbor tried the "I will just downrez the 8MP to 2MP" and the image was a soft dark mess.

His system wasn't even a year old and after that event has started replacing with cameras purchased from Andy based on my recommendation and seeing my results. He is still shocked a 2MP camera performs better than his 4k cameras and he cannot figure out why downrezing from 8MP to 2MP doesn't work properly... It is all about the amount of light needed and getting the right camera for the right location and downrezing doesn't change the physics of the camera.
 
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Thanks for that explanation. I believe it's on the same sensor. To be clear, I purchased the PTZ5A4K-25X.
Does anyone have experience returning/exchanging these?
 
Broachoski said:
Do not be deceived by the optical zoom numbers. Dahua and Empire Tec provide the focal length which is used to determine the optical zoom. A good example is on the PTZ5A-25X that looney2ns mentioned above. It provides 5.4mm-135mm vari-focal which equates to 25X optical. Most of the cheaper cameras only provide an enticing number which is deceiving. Then they add a "digital zoom" which is worthless. You can get that within BI.
I took a couple quick pics as an example. I used an older Empire Tec 25x camera at 250 yards and an unknown name 30x Chinese camera focused on the same area from 240 yards. It was raining so quality is not good but will show how the 25x out zooms the 30x. The top photo is from the 30x and both are fully zoomed.
View attachment 206393View attachment 206392
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While your point may be true your example is misleading; nothing about that is the same area. Not from trees/stumps to fence posts to elevation of truck above/behind hill line.
 
mkjr75 said:
Thanks for that explanation. I believe it's on the same sensor. To be clear, I purchased the PTZ5A4K-25X.
Click to expand...
The 2 cameras don't use the "same" sensor. They use different sensors that are approximately the same physical size, with one having more and smaller pixels than the other. Smaller pixel = less light to gather. When I ran a 4MP 5442 and 8MP 5842 side-by-side, I was pleasantly surprised that the 5842 had only a slight low light sensitivity deficit compared to the 5442. Both of these cameras have 1/1/8 sensors, which may or may not be the same 1/1.8 sensors used in the zoom cameras. The sensitivity spec differences between the 5442 and 5842 are slight, and the explanation might be that the 5842 has a lower f-stop lens than the 5442. Specs-wise, it's a whole different story with the two zoom cameras, with a quite large difference in the light sensitivity, and both using a f1.6 lens. I'm always skeptical of the sensitivity specs, and for me the only way to know for sure is side-by-side testing. But based on specs you can expect a better low light image from the 4MP camera, and sharper daytime image from the 8MP camera. You have to decide which is more important.
 
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Underhill said:
While your point may be true your example is misleading; nothing about that is the same area. Not from trees/stumps to fence posts to elevation of truck above/behind hill line.
Click to expand...
I noticed the same thing and "assumed" that both cameras were at their maximum optical zoom, which is less than 30x in the chinese market camera. Since I'm very good at making bad assumptions, a clarification would be helpful :).
 
wittaj said:
Sadly you made a mistake....and at 400 feet at night...It is why we say chase sensor size and not MP. More MP is not better if it is not on the ideal MP/sensor ratio. 8MP on thee ideal MP/sensor ratio goes for $2k.
Click to expand...
Sounds like you know a thing or 2.... and all this is blowing my mind about how deep it goes and how hard to is to avoid getting scammed out of money for poor quality cameras.

To date I have spent over $4,000 on a home security and camera set up. I hate everything. I was looking for setting up a security system for a new house I just bought. I can deal with a cheap window/door sensor setup from Amazon, but I can't for the life of me figure out a good set up for Cameras....

I need something that can zoom in on a license plate 100ft away and be able to read it.

It would be great if I could also have the ability to view live stream on my phone. As well as download videos to my phone. I don't mind setting up a full server where I can connect multiple cameras... but to be honest, if I just had 2 or 3 cameras that I could connect to my phone I'd be happy.
 
Timboo said:
Sounds like you know a thing or 2.... and all this is blowing my mind about how deep it goes and how hard to is to avoid getting scammed out of money for poor quality cameras.

To date I have spent over $4,000 on a home security and camera set up. I hate everything. I was looking for setting up a security system for a new house I just bought. I can deal with a cheap window/door sensor setup from Amazon, but I can't for the life of me figure out a good set up for Cameras....

I need something that can zoom in on a license plate 100ft away and be able to read it.

It would be great if I could also have the ability to view live stream on my phone. As well as download videos to my phone. I don't mind setting up a full server where I can connect multiple cameras... but to be honest, if I just had 2 or 3 cameras that I could connect to my phone I'd be happy.
Click to expand...

Please share what you have spent $4k on and the cameras you have! Some examples at night with motion would be great.

Regarding plates, you would have to set the camera up specifically to read plates. You need the proper camera with OPTICAL zoom for the distance you are covering and the angle to get plates.

Keep in mind that this is a camera dedicated to plates and not an overview camera also. It is as much an art as it is a science. You will need two cameras. For LPR we need to OPTICALLY zoom in tight to make the plate as large as possible. For most of us, all you see is the not much more than a vehicle in the entire frame. Now maybe in the right location during the day it might be able to see some other things, but not at night.

At night, we have to run a very fast shutter speed (typically 1/2,000) and in B/W with IR and the image will be black. All you will see are head/tail lights and the plate. Some people can get away with color if they have enough street lights, but most of us cannot. Here is a representative sample of plates I get at night of vehicles traveling about 45MPH at 175 feet from my 2MP 5241-Z12E (52IR-Z12E) camera (that is all that is needed for plates):

1675078711764.png



See the LPR subforum for more details.


As far as cameras, without knowing what your goals of the camera is, this thread is used as the go to for the new person here outlining the commonly recommended cameras (along with Amazon links) based on distance to IDENTIFY that represent the overall best value/best bang for the buck in terms of price and performance day and night. It might be a 2MP camera in some instances. Many here feel 4MP is the current sweet spot for these cameras.

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

And coupled with that thread is this great thread which will show why all of the same 2.8 or 3.6mm cameras is the wrong choice (these are the common focal lengths consumer brands sell):

i-want-2-8mm-cameras-everywhere-to-see-everything-this-is-why-you-need-specific-fovs-with-purposeful-focal-lengths.70053/

We would encourage you to look at those threads in detail.

It will probably raise more questions than answers LOL.

You can download video to phone and watch live with any VMS system, whether that be an NVR or a PC based system like Blue Iris.
 
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Timboo said:
Sounds like you know a thing or 2.... and all this is blowing my mind about how deep it goes and how hard to is to avoid getting scammed out of money for poor quality cameras.

To date I have spent over $4,000 on a home security and camera set up. I hate everything. I was looking for setting up a security system for a new house I just bought. I can deal with a cheap window/door sensor setup from Amazon, but I can't for the life of me figure out a good set up for Cameras....

I need something that can zoom in on a license plate 100ft away and be able to read it.

It would be great if I could also have the ability to view live stream on my phone. As well as download videos to my phone. I don't mind setting up a full server where I can connect multiple cameras... but to be honest, if I just had 2 or 3 cameras that I could connect to my phone I'd be happy.
Click to expand...

Think in terms of a dedicated plate camera, it’s job 100% of the time is staying in one place capturing plates. No ptz needed and it’s not really desirable. A fixed camera with a long zoom lens that most of us use is about $200-$250

As to your other requirements, not a problem. Simple even .
The hard part is picking the right camera/lens/features for each location
 
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Woah, I thought that was a copy paste reply. Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

I've been researching a new system for over a year.

I had what ever Comcast offered at the time (4 years ago) spent about $2,500 on setup and extra cameras etc... Realized I was bamboozled when someone stole a bunch of stuff from under the carport less than 10ft from the camera and the police couldn't use the video because you couldn't really see any facial features. The other $1,500 I spent was on cameras from ADT. 4 Cameras, and the alarm system etc etc. The quality is lacking and even someone 30ft away you can't see facial features.... Now I am looking for a few cameras that can capture high quality video. If the wide angle is a problem then I want something with a small angle and will just mount more cameras etc. If I could find something that is verified to do a good job then I wouldn't mine dropping a couple grand on the system. $2,000 would be my limit right now if I absolutely had to.... but I would prefer a system that I could stay under $1,000 and build onto it as time progressed. (just in a financial dip that should relieve itself within a few months.)

ADT has been horrible.... the people I worked with, the equipment I got.... the entire thing is garbage and easily tripple the price of what it should be. Yet, due to the massive amount of availability on the market where sooooooo many people are 4k this HD that, it is near impossible to find something that is actually worth any amount of money.


I have an 80x100 ft area in the back yard, and 200x100 ft area in the front yard that I would like to cover. The sides of my house have no access unless you go through the back or front yard. My initial set up would be 2 cameras to cover the front yard. $200 - $400+ a piece fine.... but I want them to be the last cameras I buy unless this auto tracking/optical zooming takes off and becomes better than what I have seen, or maybe you know better than I.... is there such a thing available now? 30x optical zoom or what ever with auto tracking and auto zoom. Anything digital zoom can pound sand. Anything with digital zoom is trash, unless hybrid where some of them are okay, but 12x zoom with 8x optical and 4x digital is meh, but you would almost rather just have the 8x optical and not have any digital.

Long story short, I need something to cover people in the street, on the side walk, walking between my house and the neighbors, as well as the barkyard for someone coming over a fence, or trying to rummage through a tool shed. Light etc are fine to help scare people away, yet infared is fine too.

Oh oh, I almost forgot. My wife is Diabetic Type 1, if she has an emergency I would love some way to get a notification so I can see her or what not. So an inside camera would be great as well, although I am more worried about the outside and would be happy setting up some simple webcam thing that I can connect to with an app or what ever....

Maybe I am rambling.... sorry to take more of your time. My family's safety is extremely important to me and I would be happy with just a link and told, you want this!
 
bigredfish said:
Think in terms of a dedicated plate camera, it’s job 100% of the time is staying in one place capturing plates. No ptz needed and it’s not really desirable. A fixed camera with a long zoom lens that most of us use is about $200-$250

As to your other requirements, not a problem. Simple even .
The hard part is picking the right camera/lens/features for each location
Click to expand...
Sorry, to be clear, I don't really need a License Plate reader.... but would want it to pick up license plates for someone pulling up in the driveway in front of the camera etc....

I've been looking at Cameras that are $500+ and don't do what I need.... so yea. Share a link or something so I can check it out.

Main point (I posted a reply to the other guy with a lot of info) I need a camera to watch my wife inside if she has an issure with her Diabetes, as well as to catch people coming in and out of the house. yet, someway I can communicate with our 6yo son if there is an emergency.

Capture the front yard (200x100) or back yard (80x100) 4 cameras would be fine to start, 2 in front 1 in back and 1 inside. Yet, if possible I would love a system that is easy to add to. I am not scared to run cable and drill holes and have done it before... but I get bogged down just trying to find what I could spend $2,000 that makes sense... is easily excessable, and does what I need it to do.
 
Each location will need to be looked at in detail and define EXACTLY what you hope to accomplish.

#1 thing we see here is people trying to do too much with too few cameras and end up with shitty results

All of those things are possible

For the Front maybe a single 180 Overview, or two single lens VF cams that work with with two PTZs. But Good PTZ's start at $500-$600 and really good ones are $1500+

160+ft


450-500ft
 
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Yeah, we have a whole thread dedicated to all those types of cameras that fail at capturing any type of identifiable. The cameras you have been using are set up to give a nice bright static image, but as you saw motion is completely useless.

I put in my reply above a link to a thread that is used as the go to for the new person here outlining the commonly recommended cameras (along with Amazon links) based on distance to IDENTIFY that represent the overall best value/best bang for the buck in terms of price and performance day and night. It might be a 2MP camera in some instances. Many here feel 4MP is the current sweet spot for these cameras. And most of these cameras are under $250.

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection - I encourage you to spend time reading this thread. It answers a lot of questions.


We don't recommend kits and you can buy cameras as your budget allows. Each camera should be selected for a specific goal.


You seem to be set thinking a PTZ is the answer. It is not.


One camera cannot be the be all/see all. The camera to IDENTIFY at 15 feet is a different camera than one to IDENTIFY at 70 feet.

Keep in mind that PTZs with auto tracking are a compliment to an existing fixed camera system and not replacements for fixed cameras.

So with only PTZs and no additional fixed cameras - what happens when 2 or more people come up to your house - the PTZ is only catching and tracking one of them, not all of them.

PTZs are not perfect and can lose tracking. Then you miss the person.

What happens when the PTZ is looking left and a perp comes from the right?

That is why PTZs are not a replacement for fixed cameras - they are a compliment to an existing system.

If you rely on a PTZ only it will miss many instances, especially when it is off tracking something else.

You are much better off using fixed cams as spotter cams to point the PTZ to where the action is and then let the autotracking take over from there.

See this thread on how a PTZ compliments a fixed camera system.


As we have said, if you want to read plates, even if it is just by eyeball, you need to set up a camera for that. During the daytime you can probably get plates of anyone turning into the driveway because the shutter speed is faster than night time. At night, if you set the camera up to be able to see around then the plate will look like this (even on great cameras because it is shutter speed that gets the plates):

1743031110366.png
 
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