Advice/Assistance on placement of cameras for floor plan

[pbc]

Hey guys,

Getting a new house next year and need to tell the builder where to drop some Cat6 cables. Believe I'm going to likely go with Hikvision domes (possibly a mini dome at the front), but will get some bullets if possible. Attached is the floor plan of the house. Some points:

1. The "loggia" at the back is just a covered porch, and has entries into the kitchen and to the family room.
2. The front door is under a covered porch as well
3. I've also attached the roof plan so you can see the lower roofs if that matters

I'm basically trying to keep the cams to between 6-8 cameras max, certainly don't want to over due it as it is not a dangerous area by any stretch.

Plan on triggering the cameras via motion.

The red markers are where I'm thinking of putting cameras right now. I guess my questions are:

1. What do you think of the positions?
2. Any recommendations on wiring (should I bother with anything other than Cat6?).
3. Recommendations on lenses and or the type of Hikvision (I've pretty much settled on the Hiks for price/value and will likely go with their POE NVR unless there are really good reasons to go otherwise).
4. Plan to home run the cables to the basement. Though I guess I can also do the attic given I assume someone can easily take the NVR and there goes my recordings?

BTW, I'm in Canada if that makes any differences. I.e., lots of snow/cold, difficult to find distributors.

Cameras I'm currently considering:

1. Front door - hikvision ds-2cd2532f-i mini dome. Again, struggling with lens choice and placement.
2. Back covered porch - 2 of the hikvision ds-2cd3332-i
3. In Garage - hikvision ds-2cd3332-i
4. Facing driveway - still unsure about which would be best here?

Last consideration: Would love to be able to view who is at the door via smart phone app or switching inputs on the TV? Now that I think about it (and maybe I'm overkilling it), a two way mic on the camera would also be interesting to speak to people at the door, though I guess this may be easier done with an intercom or door bell system.

Any help you guys could provide would be great. Need to finalize wiring at the very least in the next 2 weeks.

Thanks!

Steve

 

[zeoclang]

You should run cable to any place you think you might possibly want to add a camera in the future. What about a camera located in the back left and right corner of your house facing forward? This could alert you if anybody is trying to get into your back yard.

 

[icerabbit]

It looks like you've got the basics covered. Depending on fencing and yard access, you don't have anything on the sides and the upper right corner, garage entry from the back.

I second the thought of running the extra cable where you think you might want more coverage, in a phase 2. Part of it being that if for whatever reason the first camera doesn't capture the motion, shot is vague, angle is not ideal, etc. You get a second chance. [ I just had this two weeks ago, one cam didn't record (foscam which seems to have crashed a few days before), the other one recorded, but since the vehicle had no front tag ... no identification ]

A box of wire is $110. Labor is faster and cheaper to do it during construction rather than retrofitting. Just run the cable to a spot in the soffits have a little cover plate for access.

 

[fenderman]

Great advice icerabbit. Speaking of cable, dont let the contractor choose the cable. Make sure the cable is solid copper not copper clad aluminium or CCA which slightly cheaper but can cause signal problems and is more brittle.

 

[icerabbit]

Thanks, Fenderman. Yes, to shielded solid copper cat6. A little bit stiffer to run & a bit harder to crimp (check twice, make sure insert guide is inserted all the way, crimp once), but better signal communication, less prone to interference etc than cheapo cat5e. Would advise to use the same for any other ethernet wiring you may use to network throughout your house. I'm gradually adding cameras and doing a network retrofit at my own place, and due to retrofit line length, lots of ac power lines which I try to keep separate from, poor wifi transmission, future proofing, ... it is going to be cat 6 end to end, couple drops to each room that will have something networked or a tv. I've had good luck with Monoprice solid copper 23 gauge cmr riser rated. I can get it with two day shipping cheaper than local.

 

[icerabbit]

Still have to mention. Great house you are building.
When can I move in?

Similar recommendation on the coax for TV. RG6 Quad Shielded. It is stiff, but makes a difference, especially with digital signals and can eliminate headaches over just the good old basic stuff.

I don't think you'd want your NVR in the attic. You have NVR / NAS / PC options at whichever central point you will bring the camera cables together. Critical thing first is the wiring track & camera location. And, with a good ethernet network and if you don't use an all-in-one NVR POE switch; using an extra ethernet cable you can easily have the NVR in a different location then where camera cables come together. Or have the NVR PC or NAS hiding in plain sight in the office ...

As far as lenses and FOV I think you'd probably want to stay with a wider angle. But it would take a bit of study. Since you have a ground plan, you may be able to play with the trial of this software for your camera layout: http://www.jvsg.com/ip-video-system-design-tool/ or the online website tool. Warning. Bit of a learning curve ahead. See #28 here: http://www.ipcamtalk.com/showthread.php?331-Camera-Lens-Reference-Diagram&p=4587&viewfull=1#post4587

And that whole thread is a good read.

There is a pretty complete hikvision lens and FOV + resolution guide somewhere on the forum, but I can't seem to put my finger on it right now. One of the things done is to run a 3mp camera in 1920x1080 as it gives a bit wider field of view.

 

[pbc]

Thanks guys. It's a subdivision home (not contractor built), but thankfully they will at least be using Cat6 and not Cat5 as a standard through the home. Will give the threads a read... Swamped with work right now!

 

[pbc]

You weren't kidding about the learning curve on that program...it's making me even more nervous about the lens choices for the cameras! I'm not even sure the camera under the entrance makes much sense even at a 2.8mm lens, may not show people at the door.

I think I may be looking at getting 6mm for the sides of the house (not pictured on the plan right now), 2.8mm at the entrance if I can get it to work, and 4mm for the front of the garage and every where else.

Will keep playing with the program to see if I can get it to make more sense to me. Can't seem to figure out how to adjust the angles of the camera which is throwing me off.

 

[pbc]

Okay, here is what I've done in the program. Added 7 cameras all around 10 feet in installation height (not sure what it will be right now).

Cam 1 - 2.8mm
Cam 2 - 4mm
Cam 3 - 2.8mm
Cam 4 - 4mm
Cam 5 - 2.8mm
Cam 6 - 2.8mm
Cam 7 - 4mm

This is the resulting diagram in the program, am I on the right path here? Any suggestions?

 

[LittleBrother]

Though I guess I can also do the attic given I assume someone can easily take the NVR and there goes my recordings?

I don't think hiding a PC is practical, so I wouldn't bother. Instead, aim to have some off-site or on-site real-time backup of some sort. Streaming 8 cameras even on significant intervals will stress a residential broadband connection quite a lot, but I see no reason at all you can't have a secondary NAS somewhere, like in the back of a closet, hidden behind some boxes, etc. in the basement and have the cameras send images to this on a regular basis in addition to the NVR. This way unless the thief is clever enough to chase your wires around the house after ripping off sheets of drywall and/or check every conceivable spot you could have a small NAS device hidden, you'll be good even if everything else is taken. In my kitchen along the top of the cabinets is a nice shelf within which I could place something like that, for example. Thieves would never find it there. You could even have a panel built somewhere. With just a little ingenuity it's really close to impossible to find something small hidden in a house unless you have a team of people spending a long time doing it (e.g. warrant and a dozen cops scouring around). I have my passports and what not hidden in my house in a small fireproof/waterproof lock box. I knew that fortifying them in a safe sufficient to withstand a decent effort would be hard, but hiding them in a spot nobody would ever think of is much easier. Stick your NAS in the pantry in an old cereal box

 

[fenderman]

Here is my suggestion for your dilemma about 2.8 vs 4mm...Get one of each....Then test both in each location. Just temporary mount it or have someone hold it. This way you wont have any regrets....Keep in mind that with hikvision, you can widen your horizontal field of view by running in 2mp mode vs 3mp...You will lose vertical though...

 

[icerabbit]

I think you are doing fantastic with the software. Plan looks really good. It is showing you how close to a camera which is mounted high, that there is no identifiable image captured within a few feet of the camera, as the camera is looking down. Then the sweet spot. And, that for the views farther away from the camera you will have situational awareness (not enough pixels per face or tag to be considered identifiable)

The view in front of the garages could probably we wider, depends on the width of the driveway, maybe you've got it just right to go edge to edge. Going wider of course poses the issue that people have to be closer to the camera for the same identifiable details.

A little bit curious about the two side cameras facing back. Would that be for people who try to come forward via the back yard? Monitoring a gate? Monitoring the back yard? As when somebody walks from the street towards the back, the initial capture will be of the back of their head & back ... until they leave the same.

Also note that if you run a 3mp hikvision at 1920x1080 (little less data, less vertical data but wide screen) it widens the field of view by a few degrees. Many people, me included, want(ed) to go as wide as possible everywhere, but based on a sample camera, it was proven that wide is wide and tougher to capture details with, unless close by. That's why some people advise against 2.8 and use 4 instead. Of course the owner is the one who has to decide, and the best way to find out may be to sample a 4mm, run the wires and then try it out to see if it is perfect, not wide enough, too wide. My layout isn't exactly easy, and in part for concealment, I settled on vari focal domes. They're a bit of handful to install and get things dialed in as needed; but it allowed me to dial in more tele and set the focus zone (many of my cameras shoot farther away from the property), I was getting great situational overview, but couldn't read tags of vehicles coming and going. With a future update, I'm going to do one 2.8mm wide and one 12mm tele.

 

[nayr]

fender has got it, if your going to use a mix of 2.8's and 4mm then get one of each and try them in various locations before you buy the rest of the cameras.

offsite backup is silly idea; especially with this number of cameras..

Hiding a NVR is a fine strategy; businesses all over the world do it but they have drop ceilings, raised floors and tons of places to do this in an industrial setting.. your house is up to you to find a spot, your going to need to wire up power and everything there discretely and put it in a place with stable temperatures.. Avoid any place a thief is going to rummage through, like closets, under beds.. its got to be more clever than that like between floor joists in basement celling... There is a cheap $80 eyeSurv NVR we've been discussing on the forums that is small and cheap, should be easy to hide.. just blackout any LED's with electrical tape.

 

[pbc]

Here is my suggestion for your dilemma about 2.8 vs 4mm...Get one of each....Then test both in each location. Just temporary mount it or have someone hold it. This way you wont have any regrets....Keep in mind that with hikvision, you can widen your horizontal field of view by running in 2mp mode vs 3mp...You will lose vertical though...

Thanks, being in Canada getting cameras at a decent cost is tough so I was thinking of either ordering from aliexpress all at once or a us vendor and sending to my parents while they are in Florida over the winter. But I guess with "free shipping" I can order from Ali and try as you suggest. Before committing to several cameras.

 

[pbc]

I think you are doing fantastic with the software. Plan looks really good. It is showing you how close to a camera which is mounted high, that there is no identifiable image captured within a few feet of the camera, as the camera is looking down. Then the sweet spot. And, that for the views farther away from the camera you will have situational awareness (not enough pixels per face or tag to be considered identifiable)

The view in front of the garages could probably we wider, depends on the width of the driveway, maybe you've got it just right to go edge to edge. Going wider of course poses the issue that people have to be closer to the camera for the same identifiable details.

A little bit curious about the two side cameras facing back. Would that be for people who try to come forward via the back yard? Monitoring a gate? Monitoring the back yard? As when somebody walks from the street towards the back, the initial capture will be of the back of their head & back ... until they leave the same.

Also note that if you run a 3mp hikvision at 1920x1080 (little less data, less vertical data but wide screen) it widens the field of view by a few degrees. Many people, me included, want(ed) to go as wide as possible everywhere, but based on a sample camera, it was proven that wide is wide and tougher to capture details with, unless close by. That's why some people advise against 2.8 and use 4 instead. Of course the owner is the one who has to decide, and the best way to find out may be to sample a 4mm, run the wires and then try it out to see if it is perfect, not wide enough, too wide. My layout isn't exactly easy, and in part for concealment, I settled on vari focal domes. They're a bit of handful to install and get things dialed in as needed; but it allowed me to dial in more tele and set the focus zone (many of my cameras shoot farther away from the property), I was getting great situational overview, but couldn't read tags of vehicles coming and going. With a future update, I'm going to do one 2.8mm wide and one 12mm tele.

Good point on the cameras facing back vs front.

This is why I was at first just considering 2.8 only for the front doorway though that may also not be wide enough. It just seems when I go with 4mm or 6mm elsewhere the spot isn't wide enough. I dint think the software takes into account the hiks offer a wider fov in 1080p mode?

In the software is the pinkish hue the sweet spot?

 

[pbc]

I've been eyeing that eyeSurv (pardon the pun), though more to be used as an always on front doorway monitoring camera instead of a backup (someone suggested this in the thread and I thought it was an interesting idea).

Speaking of, has anyone seen a decent doorbell/cam? The doorbot and sky bell seem to be disappointments.

 

[nayr]

the same cameras your using elsewhere should work fine at the door.. Hikvision has a Pinhole camera that is really small and it has alarm IO's that could be wired up to a normal doorbell with a 24vac relay.. its also got a very high WDR and features like tripwire/facial recog which would be very nice at your front door... too bad its only a 1.3mp at going prices, but thats good for night vision w/color.

 

[icerabbit]

Yes, pink marks the very good identifiable area. Can't go wider than 2.8, which is pretty wide to begin with. Any wider than that and you'd have fish-eye.

The software works with what is put in. My software trial expired so I can't look into, but you're right, it probably does not factor the lower resolution increased field of view. You'd have to reconcile that with the hikvision spec sheets, or manual camera creation.

The width of your view that you request really depends on where the property boundary is, fence, plants, ... Factor that if you do have a fence with gates on the sides, people move towards that gate to see if it is locked/unlocked. Part of going less wide is also to capture less unneeded detail and focus on the critical entry points. Front, side and back yard; and then the various house & garage doors. Plus possibly a long side overview that looks along the wall at windows. If you can get a camera to pull double duty that way, like look along the side and have the gate in the sweet spot, great.

Nayr suggests a good thing for near the front door is to mount more of a pinhole model right near eye level adjacent the door & doorbell. Vs having a camera 10ft up looking down, where you will only see the top of people's heads.

The other thing I did when my first trial camera came in was hook it up to a hundred foot ethernet line and just move around with it, put a ladder up and strap it to a rung, ...

I don't think you could go wrong ordering a 4mm. If it is a bullet you import, that's less than a $100 well spent for peace of mind and practice. I procrastinated for a very long time about brands, expensive brands, alternatives, ... then even after finding hikvision, penciling it out, printing specs, etc and it isn't until you get a camera in hand that you know what it will do and what it will look like on screen. You could get close with a picture taken from up a ladder, if you know the fov at 25-50 ft out and try to match that with the viewfinder, but it is still not the real deal.

 

[pbc]

Thanks guys. Probably will just buy a 2.8 and 4mm (maybe a 6 as well) and see what it gets me when I do move in.

As for the pinhole cam, I did look at it on networkcameracritics site and it looks interesting but I couldn't figure out how to mount it. Assume I'd have to go through the bricks near the front door. So may have to run a Cat 6 to that spot as well,but it looks like there is some small box that comes with it so I don't think having a cat6 protruding outside works. Will investigate it some more to see if I can find some installation notes somewhere.

 

[pbc]

BTW, here is an adjusted one with the side cameras properly pointing forward towards the street. Note that I will have neighbours on either side of the house (I think within 10-14 feet on either side).

One with 6mm cameras on the sides and the second one actually shows 10mm lenses which gives an even longer sweet spot and I was thinking given the two neighbours being as close as they are maybe it makes more sense to have a longer sweet spot vs a wider sweet spot on the sides? These focal lengths probably make more sense than the 4mm on the sides given the houses next to me?

Any comments on the two back cameras under the covered porch? Feels like I can do better here.

I've inserted the focal lengths on the camera names to make it a bit easier to understand (and so that when I have to refer to this after the trial period is done I'll remember what I did!). This software is actually a bit of fun once you get used to it... :redface-new:

Edit: looks like 10mm is pretty rare, and 12mm is likely too long for the application. So 6mm is probably what I'll go with on the sides.