BI vs NVR

[DanDenver]

VPNs are easier to hack than cloud NVR access.

VPN you have to buy into infrastructure like replacing the router with a good $400 router because port forwarding a computer that is hosting a VPN server can be hacked. DDNS and Static IPs are extra costs. Free DDNS are prone to hackers.

Cloud VPNs are ok, but you have to buy a router and preferably one that uses a good encryption system instead of self signed certificates (that can be hacked)

Setting up a VPN securely is not always straight forward. Programmers made it easy to set up, but you can set up the VPN easily so its prone to being hacked so you have to watch what you doing and not use self-signed certificates.

All good thoughts for a business.
But for residential use, a tad overkill.

However I understand everyone has a different understanding of what 'secure' is

 

[Holbs]

Having never owned a NVR... suppose you buy a 8 channel NVR. Can you add an additional POE switch later on to upgrade to 16 channels? Or are you hardware limited to the initial 8 channels?
The reason I ask is because I went the Blue Iris route. I started with 4 IP cameras. I am now in the 20's. I would of been unpleased with myself if I bought a 4 channel NVR that could not be easily upgradeable to 8 or 16 or 24 ports later on. I believe the number of camera limit for Blue Iris is... in the 60's (?) due to Windows 64 bit architecture and the number of POE ports on a switch (which you can have multiple POE switches throughout the house for ease of installation instead of just at a single point).

 

[wittaj]

Having never owned a NVR... suppose you buy a 8 channel NVR. Can you add an additional POE switch later on to upgrade to 16 channels? Or are you hardware limited to the initial 8 channels?
The reason I ask is because I went the Blue Iris route. I started with 4 IP cameras. I am now in the 20's. I would of been unpleased with myself if I bought a 4 channel NVR that could not be easily upgradeable to 8 or 16 or 24 ports later on. I believe the number of camera limit for Blue Iris is... in the 60's (?) due to Windows 64 bit architecture and the number of POE ports on a switch (which you can have multiple POE switches throughout the house for ease of installation instead of just at a single point).

You are limited to the number of channels the NVR is designed for. Just another reason to go BI lol.

 

[tech_junkie]

Having never owned a NVR... suppose you buy a 8 channel NVR. Can you add an additional POE switch later on to upgrade to 16 channels? Or are you hardware limited to the initial 8 channels?
The reason I ask is because I went the Blue Iris route. I started with 4 IP cameras. I am now in the 20's. I would of been unpleased with myself if I bought a 4 channel NVR that could not be easily upgradeable to 8 or 16 or 24 ports later on. I believe the number of camera limit for Blue Iris is... in the 60's (?) due to Windows 64 bit architecture and the number of POE ports on a switch (which you can have multiple POE switches throughout the house for ease of installation instead of just at a single point).

An NVR is a specialized ip camera encoding and recording server appliance. So its limited to the max channels (like a 4 or 8, 16 , 32, 64 128 and 256 channel versions). When someone expands, they just buy another NVR of the same brand so they stack into the same remote viewing app. Some people go this route mainly because they don't want to dink with building and setting up a computer, just by the one that support the cameras and plug-n-go.

BI is 64 channels max, but you must build the server with good specs to get good results. That is why I revamp a mac pro 2,1 into a windows server (didn't have to download drivers either). It also works with wine/Ubuntu Linux.
The downside to BI it is not written well enough to be 100% exposed w/o a firewall or even being port forwarded. An NVR can be secured.
I have both but use the BI for mirror recording and NVRs for remote access.

 

[TonyR]

The downside to BI it is not written well enough to be 100% exposed w/o a firewall or even being port forwarded. An NVR can be secured.
I have both but use the BI for mirror recording and NVRs for remote access.

YMMV....
FWIW, I've installed 2 NVR's for clients, both Amcrest (rebranded Dahua), both port forwared, one hacked after 1 month, one still OK 5 years later.

I've been running my BI server since 2014 using port forwarding, never hacked.
Also running 2 more residential BI servers and a business BI server, all using port forwarding and all since 2016, none hacked.

Maybe I should go to Las Vegas with some cash or buy a Powerball ticket.

 

[tech_junkie]

YMMV....
FWIW, I've installed 2 NVR's for clients, both Amcrest (rebranded Dahua), both port forwared, one hacked after 1 month, one still OK 5 years later.

I've been running my BI server since 2014 using port forwarding, never hacked.
Also running 2 more residential BI servers and a business BI server, all using port forwarding and all since 2016, none hacked.

Maybe I should go to Las Vegas with some cash or buy a Powerball ticket.

Port forwarding is still a bad practice.

 

[Mike A.]

... The downside to BI it is not written well enough to be 100% exposed w/o a firewall or even being port forwarded. An NVR can be secured.
I have both but use the BI for mirror recording and NVRs for remote access.

Not sure about that part. Dahua, Hikvision, and other known camera systems are prime targets, actively searched for, and have been the subject of wide exploits many times, typically going around authorization in the device.

I'd agree that BI is potentially vulnerable but much less targeted and actively updated. In all the years running BI I don't think that I've ever seen a report of a truly "hacked" BI system. Some poorly configured and secured systems accessed, yes. Doesn't mean that it couldn't be exploited though. I have a zero-trust approach to it too.

Personally, I wouldn't directly expose much of anything to the Internet without something upfront and active monitoring.

 

[TonyR]

Port forwarding is still a bad practice.

Agreed...I never recommend it to others.

 

[pete_c]

Software typically is updated. Firmware is typically not updated. Some folks like to tinker with their software and some prefer never to touch it.

It is up to you what you want to do. Personally I like software because I have an IT background and like to tinker.

 

[Ironheadchop]

I am partial to the Netgear POE switches. That is all I have now. Had a couple of TDLink switches years ago that crapped out and ended up changing them for Netgear. But lots of folks have had on issues with the TDLinks ones.

I have a few and the one below is a good 8 port POE. Realisze that one port will have to be used as the uplink, so this will only supply seven cams with connectivity.

Amazon.com: NETGEAR 8-Port Gigabit Ethernet Unmanaged PoE+ Switch (GS308PP) - with 8 x PoE+ @ 83W, Desktop or Wall Mount : Industrial & Scientific

What about this switch? 8 ports with 2 uplinks. Would like to have one with a seperate uplink port so i can have all 8 for cameras. Looks like this one is a gigabit? Would this be a good one?

 

[smiticans]

VPNs are easier to hack than cloud NVR access.
VPN you have to buy into infrastructure like replacing the router with a good $400 router because port forwarding a computer that is hosting a VPN server can be hacked. DDNS and Static IPs are extra costs. Free DDNS are prone to hackers.
Cloud VPNs are ok, but you have to buy a router and preferably one that uses a good encryption system instead of self signed certificates (that can be hacked)
Setting up a VPN securely is not always straight forward. Programmers made it easy to set up, but you can set up the VPN easily so its prone to being hacked so you have to watch what you doing and not use self-signed certificates.

Can you backup this claim that VPN's are easier to hack than cloud NVR access? I find that hard to believe, considering NVR's are one of the most least secure devices you can put on your network. You can find a decent Asus router that has OpenVPN built into it for $160 or less. You can also buy a used Dell Optiplex on eBay for $140.00, an intel gigabit NIC on amazon for $40.00 and load pfSense onto it. pfSense supports OpenVPN and Wireguard. In my opinion, PfSense is far superior to any consumer grade router that is currently sold, so you would be much better off if you "bought into that infrastructure".

If you don't want to spend any money and keep your current network infrastructure, Zero Tier would be a good fit. Only issue with Zero Tier is it has to be installed on the device you want remote access to, so it would only work with BI, not an NVR.

I've used both BI and an NVR. BI is far superior to an NVR for both local access and remote access on a phone.

 

[looney2ns]

What about this switch? 8 ports with 2 uplinks. Would like to have one with a seperate uplink port so i can have all 8 for cameras. Looks like this one is a gigabit? Would this be a good one?

What switch are you asking about, no link provided.
Don't cheap out on switches or Cable, it is the heart of the system.

 

[Ironheadchop]

What switch are you asking about, no link provided.
Don't cheap out on switches or Cable, it is the heart of the system.

BV-Tech 10 Port PoE+ Gigabit Switch (8 PoE+ Gigabit Ports with 2 Gigabit Uplink) – 96W – 802.3af/at, Made in Taiwan, NDAA Compliant

https://a.co/d/cdo6IIV

What switch are you asking about, no link provided.
Don't cheap out on switches or Cable, it is the heart of the system.

BV-Tech 10 Port PoE+ Gigabit Switch (8 PoE+ Gigabit Ports with 2 Gigabit Uplink) – 96W – 802.3af/at, Made in Taiwan, NDAA Compliant

https://a.co/d/cdo6IIV

 

[sebastiantombs]

I'm very cautious of BV Tech switches. To me their power supplies are very weak, will not start under load. I had one that needed to be nursed through a restart, unplug all cameras, let the switch boot, then plug cameras back in one at a time, more than once. One day it failed after a power failure trying to reboot itself. It was less than a year old, 16 port with 10 cameras. Buy cheap, you get cheap.

 

[smiticans]

I've been using TP Link PoE switches since 2013 and I have yet to have one of them fail.
These are the two main ones I've been using;

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BP0SSAS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

https://www.amazon.com/TP-Link-Compliant-Shielded-Optimization-TL-SG1005P/dp/B076HZFY3F/ref=sr_1_3?crid=28WACIYZGAKK1&keywords=tp%2Blink%2Bpoe&qid=1668888464&sprefix=tp%2Blink%2Bpo%2Caps%2C67&sr=8-3&th=1

 

[Mike A.]

Yeah, my TP-Link and Netgear switches have been workhorses. Did have some issues with one series of the small Netgear non-POE switches failing repeatedly but they replaced them under lifetime warranty until finally getting past that version. No problems with anything from either since.

TP-Link has a store on ebay where they sell refurbs and regularly have coupons for 10% off.

Security Measure

www.ebay.com

ebay had a promo the other day for 20% off refurbished products that stacked with that. I got one of these to replace another older Netgear that I have for $~130 shipped. Thought that was a pretty good deal for 24-port POE+ Gig switch.

TP-LINK JetStream 24-Port Gigabit Smart PoE+ Switch - Black (T1600G-28PS) for sale online | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for TP-LINK JetStream 24-Port Gigabit Smart PoE+ Switch - Black (T1600G-28PS) at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

What about this switch? 8 ports with 2 uplinks. Would like to have one with a seperate uplink port so i can have all 8 for cameras. Looks like this one is a gigabit? Would this be a good one?

Review page one of this thread... plenty of GREAT info posted in response to your earlier inquiries about PoE Switches

 

[tech_junkie]

I'm very cautious of BV Tech switches. To me their power supplies are very weak, will not start under load. I had one that needed to be nursed through a restart, unplug all cameras, let the switch boot, then plug cameras back in one at a time, more than once. One day it failed after a power failure trying to reboot itself. It was less than a year old, 16 port with 10 cameras. Buy cheap, you get cheap.

There are a lot of 16 ch POE switches that are weak. because the power supply should be 190W+ to support 16 ch. ( average small camera is 12W so 12X16=192)

 

[alastairstevenson]

There are a lot of 16 ch POE switches that are weak. because the power supply should be 190W+ to support 16 ch.

Just in case this determines anyone's buying choices ...

average small camera is 12W

Sorry, but I disagree.
Based on actual experience, and also device specs.
Even Pro series models (ie more RAM and faster processors) with active strong IR or white LEDs use no more than 5 or 6w worst case.
I believe your figures are out by a factor of about 2.

 

[Mike A.]

Some of mine now from a switch that reports POE power use that was easy to copy and paste. The column before Class is the power. The 2s are cams running without IR. 4-7 are cams running IR. Both are a mix of T5442s, B5442, and a 5241-Z12, The 8.8 is an HIkvision DS-2CD2512F-IWS cam similar to the Dahua mini-wedges. Not sure why that one's so high other than maybe it runs both IR and WFi that seems to be active even with POE connected. The 9 and 12.9 are runs with 2 cams on splitters (4K-X+Amcrest 5MP and 5442 without IR+Dahua SD29204T mini-PTZ which is kind of a power hog at ~8 with IR on, respectively).

	e8	Enable	Low	802.3af 2point Only	0	None	49	45	2.200	Class	15400	Delivering Power
	e9	Enable	Low	802.3af 2point Only	0	None	0	0	0.000	Class	15400	Searching
	e10	Enable	Low	802.3af 2point Only	0	None	48	182	8.800	Class	15400	Delivering Power
	e11	Enable	Low	802.3af 2point Only	2	None	49	56	2.700	Class	15400	Delivering Power
	e12	Enable	Low	802.3af 2point Only	0	None	0	0	0.000	Class	15400	Searching
	e13	Enable	Low	802.3af 2point Only	0	None	49	58	2.800	Class	15400	Delivering Power
	e14	Enable	Low	802.3af 2point Only	0	None	48	142	6.900	Class	15400	Delivering Power
	e15	Enable	Low	802.3af 2point Only	0	None	49	98	4.800	Class	15400	Delivering Power
	e16	Enable	Low	802.3af 2point Only	3	None	48	116	5.600	Class	15400	Delivering Power
	e17	Enable	Low	802.3af 2point Only	0	None	0	0	0.000	Class	15400	Searching
	e18	Enable	Low	802.3af 2point Only	4	None	49	185	9.0	Class	15400	Delivering Power
	e19	Enable	Low	802.3af 2point Only	4	None	48	266	12.900	Class	15400	Delivering Power