bidens incredible transition to electric cars

Without specifying the outside temp this has to be a meaningless statement. If it's below zero I'd expect the heat pump to be useless, even if the battery still has some juice in it.

I couldn't find any real specs, but for the opposing view I found this on X:
"The heat pump system actually has the ability to work really well, even in temps colder than -30C, because there are two loops that use compression and expansion of the refrigerant (going from liquid to gas to liquid) and those loops can produce heat, even in the extreme cold."

I don't believe it. If it were to be true, every heat pump in cold climates is now horribly obsolete. Mine isn't very new any more. It becomes useless in the mid-20s, and we sometimes see -20. (All my temps are in degrees F). -30C is very close to -20F.

For heat pumps with boreholes or ring trench collectors, -20° F is no problem. for simpe air-to-air heat pumps, an electric heating rod is required at some point, as the output is no longer sufficient to heat an entire house.

A year ago we had record cold at the nordcap (-45,4° F). The vast majority of people there drive electrically, whereas all offroad vehicles i´ve seen were still classic combustion engines. You could recognize the tourists (like me) from abroad from a long way off by the clouds of steam caused by the exhaust. The normal winter diesel fails at such temperatures and many tourists were stuck because the fuel pump was clogged.
 
OK. I'll throw out my opinion.
I think a lot of people will be unwilling to go over a mountain pass in the winter with an EV. All it takes is a common road blockage from gridlock, disabled vehicle, or accident, and you can be stuck in below freezing weather without a heater after the battery runs out. Then assuming you survive and the road opens up, you need to be towed.
Wow.
I couldn't help but think of Donner Pass and the Donner Party crossing the Sierra Nevada mountains. :wow:
 
Without specifying the outside temp this has to be a meaningless statement. If it's below zero I'd expect the heat pump to be useless, even if the battery still has some juice in it.....??
........
That article linked in the prior post makes the Tesla sound really good. It's another one I don't believe, but if true, changing all heat pumps to this technology might solve the a lot of the energy generation and distribution problems. Heck I could maybe heat the house with PV solar and quit buying 1,000 gallons of propane every year.
So I did a little bit of digging and at least the Tesla heat pump works at -20F. In the below video, the one with Heat Pump wins and by a lot and it's not even close.

This guy below explains how well the Tesla heat pump system works, fascinating piece of design and engineering. Tesla takes every single source of heat and sends it to the heat pump. If I heard correctly it can operate north of -40F or -40C.

 
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So my neighbor (the one that rushed to buy a VW Electric when gas prices shot thru the roof and he blamed it on Republicans) told me last night that they are going to invest next year in an electric car for their 'soon to be' college daughter. Why? He believes in 4 years or so, auto mechanics are going to start panicking because there will not be that many gas powered vehicles to work on any longer. Oh, and the 2012 Volkswagen Tiguen that they bought for their daughter (and I advised not to when asked) has been nothing but a PITA for them, loaded with problems. Yeah, its gas of course.

He's a great neighbor, but we agreed a long time ago NOT to discuss politics. I wished him the best.
 
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I thought batteries had problems when they got too cold. Do they get heated by this heat-pump?

Excerpt:

So she told the car she was going to the charging station and it was ready by the time she arrived and plugged in.
Thank the Lord my ICE F-150 knows we're fueling up when we pull into the gas station....I don't have to tell it. :lmao:
 
I thought batteries had problems when they got too cold. Do they get heated by this heat-pump?

So when it's really cold, batteries need to be preheated to accept fast charging, additionally batteries that have a liquid electrolyte will thicken and flow of electrons will be less. That is why Solid state batteries are being developed.

Tesla uses the heat produced by every high voltage motor in their vehicle to heat up the battery or cabin, by locking the magnetic field in the stator instead of the rotating magnetic field that causes a rotor in the motor to spin.

All of the major electronics heatsink is liquid cooled including those nvidia gpu and similar custom tesla chips. Other EV makers just waste those heat, while tesla uses them to heat up the battery/ cabin.
 
scavenging heat/cold from the batteries, charging port, engine,... is more like a standard feature in every car with a heating pump.
 
I tried to ask the Internet what was the lowest temp for a heat pump to work. It felt like looking for political opinions, with the answers ranging from +30F to under -30F. Whatever the case, if despite my skepticism, the Tesla heat pump works efficiently down to at least -20F, that is impressive to me. If the battery can run it for as long as some of the claims, that is also impressive to me. I think an EV that you can charge at home is a great idea for local trips. For trips greater than half of the battery range, I think there's too much risk if anything unexpected happens, and the on-the-road charging hassles are more than I'd want to deal with. All solved with a hybrid. Even one of my summer trips would have been a hassle. If you're familiar with Oregon geography, I was going east from the Willamette valley up and over the Cascades. Pretty close to starting the climb up to the pass the road was closed "indefinitely" due to an accident. I had to backtrack all the way to the valley, then south on I-5 to the next highway going over the pass, taking the longer route to the destination. It "probably" would have required a recharge in an EV. In my case there was enough gas left, but even having to stop for gas is a whole lot less hassle than recharging. Maybe someday EVs will be able to have a 500 mile range and have less charging hassles. For the foreseeable future, I wouldn't want to take one on a greater than 100 mile trip, regardless of the weather.
 
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Why? He believes in 4 years or so, auto mechanics are going to start panicking because there will not be that many gas powered vehicles to work on any longer.

I'm all in on EV's and think they are fantastic, and even I know his is losing his marbles! There will be gas vehicles arounds for decades to come. In fact, mechanics may get busier fixing gas cars as all the EV haters in this thread hold onto their old cars which need fixing! :D

I tried to ask the Internet what was the lowest temp for a heat pump to work. It felt like looking for political opinions, with the answers ranging from +30F to under -30F. Whatever the case, if despite my skepticism, the Tesla heat pump works efficiently down to at least -20F, that is impressive to me. If the battery can run it for as long as some of the claims, that is also impressive to me. I think an EV that you can charge at home is a great idea for local trips. For trips greater than half of the battery range, I think there's too much risk if anything unexpected happens, and the on-the-road charging hassles are more than I'd want to deal with. All solved with a hybrid. Even one of my summer trips would have been a hassle. If you're familiar with Oregon geography, I was going east from the Willamette valley up and over the Cascades. Pretty close to starting the climb up to the pass the road was closed "indefinitely" due to an accident. I had to backtrack all the way to the valley, then south on I-5 to the next highway going over the pass, taking the longer route to the destination. It "probably" would have required a recharge in an EV. In my case there was enough gas left, but even having to stop for gas is a whole lot less hassle than recharging. Maybe someday EVs will be able to have a 500 mile range and have less charging hassles. For the foreseeable future, I wouldn't want to take one on a greater than 100 mile trip, regardless of the weather.

Yep, my wife has only ever charged in our garage and its fantastic. No more dealing with wackos at the gas station. If we go on a super long trip, we take my F150 anyway

Another great feature of EV's not often mentioned is how useful they are during disasters. I can charge it up too 100% before a storm and not have to sit in lines at a gas station. Then, like earlier this year during Beryl when we had a 7 day power outage, we could charge it up at home via generator while people with gas cars struggle to find a gas station that is open. Pretty funny how that worked out

You could sit in it and use the AC or heat if you wanted to, with zero risk of carbon monoxide
 
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I'm all in on EV's and think they are fantastic, and even I know his is losing his marbles! There will be gas vehicles arounds for decades to come. In fact, mechanics may get busier fixing gas cars as all the EV haters in this thread hold onto their old cars which need fixing! :D



Yep, my wife has only ever charged in our garage and its fantastic. No more dealing with wackos at the gas station. If we go on a super long trip, we take my F150 anyway

Another great feature of EV's not often mentioned is how useful they are during disasters. I can charge it up too 100% before a storm and not have to sit in lines at a gas station. Then, like earlier this year during Beryl when we had a 7 day power outage, we could charge it up at home via generator while people with gas cars struggle to find a gas station that is open. Pretty funny how that worked out

You could sit in it and use the AC or heat if you wanted to, with zero risk of carbon monoxide
Gas generator? Yep funny...

Not hating on EVs, just don't see them worth all the extra money...maybe one day they will come down in price and stop adding more strain to our already over used power grid, thanks to crypto mining. But I guess if you can afford an EV you can afford the expensive solar panels and batteries station to charge the EV...many people cannot.
 
Natural Gas, 27kw

We love our Mach-E, we could not find a car of equal quality or speed or for anywhere near the cost, so it was a great deal for us
 
Natural Gas, 27kw

We love our Mach-E, we could not find a car of equal quality or speed or for anywhere near the cost, so it was a great deal for us
We entertained a house generator, but again for us the cost was way, way to high for a few days of convenience. But we are retired so having to make our way to work is no longer a shore for us and a few days without Internet, don't hurt anyone. I lived in Houston area the majority of my life, went through many hurricanes, storms, Allison, all the way back to the 60s, so many outages. Never owned a generator, but used them at work for remote sites without power.
The Texas Winter storm of 2021 we lost power for 3 days, our house was about 50 degrees, we just bundled up, the summer outages, not a problem for us, 90 degrees indoors, not great sleeping weather but guess the many, many years of camping prepared me for hot muggy nights.

Well guess what we got for Christmas, now last year, from our family, a battery station invertor, lol. Our only issue with outages was trying to save the food in our freezer/refrigs. But again, $1,000 portable generator to save $300 in food? As you can tell I am kinda frugal. After telling our kids, many times, how we empty our freezer/frigs into coolers with ice they said we needed a generator :)
 
I haven't noticed a lot of EV hating on this thread, just resentment over how they're being forced on society, and concerns over them being practical in some common situations. I coincidentally ran across an article today, no need to quote it, pointing out how people who live in apartments and condos are 2nd-class citizens with EVs, because they can't charge them at home. There probably aren't many apartment and condo dwellers on this forum. They generally can't go mounting cameras and stringing wires all over the place, and any serious camera system is probably controlled by the building administration. The point being that this forum isn't a very representative slice of the overall population for opinions about EVs, and IMO it would be more EV friendly that the overall population.

This opens my eyes about how Hertz lost their tails with EVs. Who on a business or pleasure trip would want to have the added hassle of finding and using a charging station?
 
I haven't noticed a lot of EV hating on this thread, just resentment over how they're being forced on society, and concerns over them being practical in some common situations. I coincidentally ran across an article today, no need to quote it, pointing out how people who live in apartments and condos are 2nd-class citizens with EVs, because they can't charge them at home. There probably aren't many apartment and condo dwellers on this forum. They generally can't go mounting cameras and stringing wires all over the place, and any serious camera system is probably controlled by the building administration. The point being that this forum isn't a very representative slice of the overall population for opinions about EVs, and IMO it would be more EV friendly that the overall population.

This opens my eyes about how Hertz lost their tails with EVs. Who on a business or pleasure trip would want to have the added hassle of finding and using a charging station?
Got a friend who runs an Amazon Delivery business, think his fleet is now around 30. He said the EVs they supply him are always in the shop. He did say when they are running right they are good. But he is losing on them because of their downtime.
 
If you're familiar with Oregon geography, I was going east from the Willamette valley up and over the Cascades. Pretty close to starting the climb up to the pass the road was closed "indefinitely" due to an accident. I had to backtrack all the way to the valley, then south on I-5 to the next highway going over the pass, taking the longer route to the destination. It "probably" would have required a recharge in an EV. In my case there was enough gas left, but even having to stop for gas is a whole lot less hassle than recharging.

If you're talking about highway 20, there are a ton of Tesla chargers in Detroit, and then again in Sisters, so needing a charge on either side is not an issue. Heading back down, an EV will use hardly any energy since you're mostly coasting and regenerating. I'll have to pay attention to see what my battery percentage is at the top of the pass compared to when I get home, but I bet I only use 10%. I'm not familiar with the charging infrastructure going through Sandy, or highway 58. I'm sure those routes have good charging infrastructure as well.

I've made a few longer trips in the Tesla, and it charges fast enough to not be a nuisance. I can make it from Silverton to a friend's house in Redmond AND back without stopping to charge (270 miles).

Took a trip to Redding (400 miles) and stopped to charge once on the way down. In the time it took to walk to Muchas Gracias, use the restroom, and walk back to the car, I had way more charge than needed to complete the trip. Charged just once on the way back, and only needed maybe 10 minutes. You'll spend that much time getting fast food and using the restroom.

The neat thing about Tesla charging is you just connect the cable and it starts charging. You can also set a charge limit so you're not paying for more than you need/want.

Finally, in most energy markets, electricity is about 1/3rd the cost per mile compared with gasoline for a comparable vehicle.

Well guess what we got for Christmas, now last year, from our family, a battery station invertor, lol. Our only issue with outages was trying to save the food in our freezer/refrigs. But again, $1,000 portable generator to save $300 in food? As you can tell I am kinda frugal. After telling our kids, many times, how we empty our freezer/frigs into coolers with ice they said we needed a generator :)

I don't have any use for those portable battery/inverters and they are mostly gimmicky, though plenty of people run a CPAP while camping. The problem is it's a combined solution. What are the odds the battery is exactly the capacity needed, combined with an inverter with exactly the power rating needed? Then the thing becomes garbage when either the battery or inverter dies. Better to spec out the battery and inverter separately.

The real problem is that a battery barely holds any energy compared to gasoline. There's no battery/inverter combo that would have run our house for the week we were without power a few years back. Fortunately my dad had an extra $200 gasoline generator. It ran half the circuits in my house, and the fridges at both my neighbors houses (long extension cords). I had lights, TV, forced air furnace, microwave, washer, dryer... you name it. It worked out for me because all my heating is natural gas, so no 240v circuits were needed.

I've got an even better solution now that I own a plug-in hybrid vehicle (PHEV). Next time there's an outage, I'll connect an inverter directly to the 12v battery, which is maintained by the DC/DC converter and larger traction battery. If that battery runs low, the engine will come on and charge it. A PHEV is essentially a portable generator.
 
If you're talking about highway 20
Off subject apologies. It's 22 that goes through Detroit. We were heading east and the road was blocked along the lake just short of the town. Had to backtrack east to hook the shortest road south to Lebanon, and ran into yet again another road closure with detour before getting down to Hwy. 20. By then it was dark and 20 was literally bumper-to-bumper in the other direction most of the way up, and having to stare into the headlights on the curves was horrible (not an EV issue). There might be chargers in Lebanon, I don't know. It was a 300+ mile bummer of a trip between west of Portland and Sisters. Took about 7 hours.
 
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If you're talking about highway 20, there are a ton of Tesla chargers in Detroit, and then again in Sisters, so needing a charge on either side is not an issue. Heading back down, an EV will use hardly any energy since you're mostly coasting and regenerating. I'll have to pay attention to see what my battery percentage is at the top of the pass compared to when I get home, but I bet I only use 10%. I'm not familiar with the charging infrastructure going through Sandy, or highway 58. I'm sure those routes have good charging infrastructure as well.

I've made a few longer trips in the Tesla, and it charges fast enough to not be a nuisance. I can make it from Silverton to a friend's house in Redmond AND back without stopping to charge (270 miles).

Took a trip to Redding (400 miles) and stopped to charge once on the way down. In the time it took to walk to Muchas Gracias, use the restroom, and walk back to the car, I had way more charge than needed to complete the trip. Charged just once on the way back, and only needed maybe 10 minutes. You'll spend that much time getting fast food and using the restroom.

The neat thing about Tesla charging is you just connect the cable and it starts charging. You can also set a charge limit so you're not paying for more than you need/want.

Finally, in most energy markets, electricity is about 1/3rd the cost per mile compared with gasoline for a comparable vehicle.



I don't have any use for those portable battery/inverters and they are mostly gimmicky, though plenty of people run a CPAP while camping. The problem is it's a combined solution. What are the odds the battery is exactly the capacity needed, combined with an inverter with exactly the power rating needed? Then the thing becomes garbage when either the battery or inverter dies. Better to spec out the battery and inverter separately.

The real problem is that a battery barely holds any energy compared to gasoline. There's no battery/inverter combo that would have run our house for the week we were without power a few years back. Fortunately my dad had an extra $200 gasoline generator. It ran half the circuits in my house, and the fridges at both my neighbors houses (long extension cords). I had lights, TV, forced air furnace, microwave, washer, dryer... you name it. It worked out for me because all my heating is natural gas, so no 240v circuits were needed.

I've got an even better solution now that I own a plug-in hybrid vehicle (PHEV). Next time there's an outage, I'll connect an inverter directly to the 12v battery, which is maintained by the DC/DC converter and larger traction battery. If that battery runs low, the engine will come on and charge it. A PHEV is essentially a portable generator.
Yeah, we will see how good this works, it was free for us. I plan on testing it, hooking up our two freezer/frigs to it and see how long it will power them. A few friends of our family member that got this for us use them as an UPS. One thing that will drain this thing faster is a freezer/frig will work harder in 90+ degree F heat. So that is the true test. We do miss natural gas, but we will be installing propane this year...this all electric house sucks...
 
Off subject apologies. It's 22 that goes through Detroit. We were heading east and the road was blocked along the lake just short of the town. Had to backtrack east to hook the shortest road south to Lebanon, and ran into yet again another road closure with detour before getting down to Hwy. 20. By then it was dark and 20 was literally bumper-to-bumper in the other direction most of the way up, and having to stare into the headlights on the curves was horrible (not an EV issue). There might be chargers in Lebanon, I don't know. It was a 300+ mile bummer of a trip between west of Portland and Sisters. Took about 7 hours.
Carry a gas generator in your trunk :)