fenderman
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you have an extremely low load compared to what the OP wants to do...you can run those cams on a second gen i3...
I get it, I am glad and am encouraged to see more and more people try the ryzen's with BI in big and small use cases.
Variety is great.
fenderman
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AMD is a TERRIBLE choice for BI...As noted before, its more expensive to buy, more expensive to run and does not support intel HD hardware acceleration...makes zero sense...
well, like many, its on a VM, BI isnt the only thing on the box.........................
fenderman
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another bad idea...even if you insist on it...still makes no sense to go amd..
well, looking at the other ryzen threads and its pattern, I think this conversation is a lost cause.
fenderman
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My intent is not to convince you...its to make it clear for newbies reading this post that its a terrible idea...Want to do something stupid, fine, dont try to mislead others into making the same mistake.
Correct, we are guessing about the card's contribution to power consumption. This will continue to be the case until I remove the card from the measurement.
Re: the i7, to split the difference, clarify, and buy refurb, can I assume an i7 7700 will do <65% utilization with an open GUI and RDC with unrestricted frame rate on the proposed load?
re: HikVision, I am presently dorking around with some IR banks. What's recommended for moonlight applications?
Re: the i7, to split the difference, clarify, and buy refurb, can I assume an i7 7700 will do <65% utilization with an open GUI and RDC with unrestricted frame rate on the proposed load?
re: HikVision, I am presently dorking around with some IR banks. What's recommended for moonlight applications?
fenderman
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yes, but I would suggest you go with an eighth gen, it costs the same as the amd but is more powerful with the addition intel hd....it will give you the added headroom which is always good......I dont know how RDP will respond to an unrestricted setting...
Not with that beer.
I’m still waiting for the link
Everyone is missing what fenderman is saying for blue Iris.
Get into it cheap learn and if it’s running fine leave it alone
Most people just want a system that doesn’t cost a huge amount
And if something has worked fine for years you will recommend what works
Read his posts he has many systems running and he’s not running around fixing them every day from what I read it’s set and forget and he would like to see this passed to new comers
marku2 -- I get what he's going at, but as a new user with an existing AMD system, I almost didn't even bother with BI because I thought it'd be such a cluster I wouldn't bother.
To be clear, there are probably a small population of potential BI customers who already have some kind of Ryzen, want to try out BI, and then if they like it, they may move to a more BI optimized platform. I made my OP because I saw little or no data for that scenario, figured my data would be useful given my experience was different than expected given what I've read on this site. Nothing more, nothing less. BI runs well on an 1800x, but I make no hard claims about power and cost because since it's a temporary and already existing system, they don't matter in my scenario. I'm not recommending that people purpose build a $$$$ 1800x box for BI.
And so, I'm about to pull the trigger on a refurb i7 7700k, hoping it runs fine on unrestricted RDP as so far, I usually watch it on RDP.
Fenderman -- Yeah, I'm paying too much, etc. etc... so ignoring the price, what do you think of the particular box in the link below for the load I defined earlier? ( <65% utilization with an open GUI and RDC with unrestricted frame rate, 6*HikVision 5MP, 5*HikVision 8MP, 20 f/s). To be clear, this implies the i7 7700 box will have less utilization than my Ryzen 1800x for the same load; I expect the load I defined would be pushing the Ryzen's envelope assuming linear scaling in MP/s. I don't immediately see any 8th gen enterprise-type boxes, so I'll just go with the 7th gen if it'll meet those criteria (I'll probably only be running about 70% the final MP/s load for a while anyway as I'm going to slow down with purchasing cameras and research more); I'll prob have to add HDD, but I already have some laying around, and that was expected with any build.
Dell Outlet Refurbished Laptops, Desktops & Servers
And after this, I'll be off to something less contentious: newb messing around with VLANs and VNC. And >1 NAS. Danger!
To be clear, there are probably a small population of potential BI customers who already have some kind of Ryzen, want to try out BI, and then if they like it, they may move to a more BI optimized platform. I made my OP because I saw little or no data for that scenario, figured my data would be useful given my experience was different than expected given what I've read on this site. Nothing more, nothing less. BI runs well on an 1800x, but I make no hard claims about power and cost because since it's a temporary and already existing system, they don't matter in my scenario. I'm not recommending that people purpose build a $$$$ 1800x box for BI.
And so, I'm about to pull the trigger on a refurb i7 7700k, hoping it runs fine on unrestricted RDP as so far, I usually watch it on RDP.
Fenderman -- Yeah, I'm paying too much, etc. etc... so ignoring the price, what do you think of the particular box in the link below for the load I defined earlier? ( <65% utilization with an open GUI and RDC with unrestricted frame rate, 6*HikVision 5MP, 5*HikVision 8MP, 20 f/s). To be clear, this implies the i7 7700 box will have less utilization than my Ryzen 1800x for the same load; I expect the load I defined would be pushing the Ryzen's envelope assuming linear scaling in MP/s. I don't immediately see any 8th gen enterprise-type boxes, so I'll just go with the 7th gen if it'll meet those criteria (I'll probably only be running about 70% the final MP/s load for a while anyway as I'm going to slow down with purchasing cameras and research more); I'll prob have to add HDD, but I already have some laying around, and that was expected with any build.
Dell Outlet Refurbished Laptops, Desktops & Servers
And after this, I'll be off to something less contentious: newb messing around with VLANs and VNC. And >1 NAS. Danger!
Update on performance observations, GTX580 GPU related (specifying because I don't immediately know exactly what kind of HW acceleration is getting called), presently 860 MP/s load:
Could be AMD dependent, will test this behavior when my i7 7700 box shows up:
According to Win10 task manager, GPU gets used during active BI GUI. This is independent of RDC vs sitting at the box.
If I uncheck 'Limit Live Preview Rate' in the BI Options -> Cameras tab, BI is utilizing around 16% GPU.
Furthermore, if I open a Unifi session running 3 1080P cameras Utilization increases another 35% to 40%. GPU hovering around 50% utilization for BI console + Unifi Video simultaneously.
I will test this on the i7 7700 when I get it; maybe it'll just offload everything to the i7's HD video; if I see usage spike with my desired monitor use case, that'll be sufficient for me to identify a GPU that's around 3500 to 5000 passmark for the box as an experiment. Should be doable with a <70W TDP GPU with modern stuff.
It is notable that the BI GPU utiilization scales with limiting live preview framerates and whether or not I select and move around (for example, digital zoom in, zoom out actively).
Case 1: unlimited fps: ~10% GPU utilization idle, ~20% with frame selected and actively zooming in, zooming out.
Case 2: limit to 25 fps: ~9% GPU utilization idle, ~18% with frame selected and actively zooming in, zooming out.
Case 3: limit to 20 fps: ~7% GPU utilization idle, ~14% with frame selected and actively zooming in, zooming out.
<I think I've reached the floor of what the BI is using in GPU>
Case 4: limit to 15 fps: ~5% GPU utilization idle, ~11% with frame selected and actively zooming in, zooming out.
Case 5: limit to 10 fps: ~7% GPU utilization idle, ~12% with frame selected and actively zooming in, zooming out.
Case 6: close BI console: 0% GPU utilization.
Case 7: Reopened and things were feeling more hungry: unlimited: ~18% idle, ~30% when actively mucking around. Interestingly, CPU use went from ~50% when console open down to around 40% when console open. Have no idea how BI is distributing tasks.
So if one is looking for a box to look at the BI console smoothly at 25 F/s, there could be some non-trivial GPU involvement (so far, only demonstrated for AMD Ryzen use case; unsure about AMD cards, newer Nvidia cards, other AMD processors, Intel processors, etc.). Probably not surprising for many, but I was expecting little or no discrete GPU HW acceleration. I will also look into monitoring with fewer F/s. Seems most people like to limit to 10 F/s, which then puts the GPU usage pretty low.
Could be AMD dependent, will test this behavior when my i7 7700 box shows up:
According to Win10 task manager, GPU gets used during active BI GUI. This is independent of RDC vs sitting at the box.
If I uncheck 'Limit Live Preview Rate' in the BI Options -> Cameras tab, BI is utilizing around 16% GPU.
Furthermore, if I open a Unifi session running 3 1080P cameras Utilization increases another 35% to 40%. GPU hovering around 50% utilization for BI console + Unifi Video simultaneously.
I will test this on the i7 7700 when I get it; maybe it'll just offload everything to the i7's HD video; if I see usage spike with my desired monitor use case, that'll be sufficient for me to identify a GPU that's around 3500 to 5000 passmark for the box as an experiment. Should be doable with a <70W TDP GPU with modern stuff.
It is notable that the BI GPU utiilization scales with limiting live preview framerates and whether or not I select and move around (for example, digital zoom in, zoom out actively).
Case 1: unlimited fps: ~10% GPU utilization idle, ~20% with frame selected and actively zooming in, zooming out.
Case 2: limit to 25 fps: ~9% GPU utilization idle, ~18% with frame selected and actively zooming in, zooming out.
Case 3: limit to 20 fps: ~7% GPU utilization idle, ~14% with frame selected and actively zooming in, zooming out.
<I think I've reached the floor of what the BI is using in GPU>
Case 4: limit to 15 fps: ~5% GPU utilization idle, ~11% with frame selected and actively zooming in, zooming out.
Case 5: limit to 10 fps: ~7% GPU utilization idle, ~12% with frame selected and actively zooming in, zooming out.
Case 6: close BI console: 0% GPU utilization.
Case 7: Reopened and things were feeling more hungry: unlimited: ~18% idle, ~30% when actively mucking around. Interestingly, CPU use went from ~50% when console open down to around 40% when console open. Have no idea how BI is distributing tasks.
So if one is looking for a box to look at the BI console smoothly at 25 F/s, there could be some non-trivial GPU involvement (so far, only demonstrated for AMD Ryzen use case; unsure about AMD cards, newer Nvidia cards, other AMD processors, Intel processors, etc.). Probably not surprising for many, but I was expecting little or no discrete GPU HW acceleration. I will also look into monitoring with fewer F/s. Seems most people like to limit to 10 F/s, which then puts the GPU usage pretty low.
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*** Edited to include i7 7700 data in same post for same config. ***
Got a GPU which happens to be more appropriate for the application, AMD WX5100, so I put it in the 1800x box as an experiment before it goes to its new home. Still not optimal, but I'll prob be within 10W of the best I can do GPU-wise when it's seeing little utilization, so there won't be much more upside. edit: Also got my i7 7700 Optiplex 7050 up and running, can post back to back numbers.
AMD 1800X = RED, INTEL I7 7700 = BLUE.
Identical config copapasta over via Blue Iris's nice features. Only adjustment is to enable HW accel for Intel.
Config 1: Disabled a few cams to get near where I was @ the OP. ~460 MP/s according to BI status.
Console closed, run as service: CPU ~15% utilization, GPU 0% utilization. System power @ the plug is ~85W to ~90W. HW monitor says ~38W to the Ryzen.
Console open, active local session: CPU ~19% utilization, GPU ~7% utiliation, system power @ the plug is 95W to 105W. HW monitor says ~45W to the Ryzen.
<I'll try to gather i7 7700 data in this config at a later time.>
(A car just drove by, should trigger one of the cameras, and I'm pretty certain I saw the watts jump by ~10W for a min, then drop back down. It is notable that there is not a lot of triggering going on during these readings.)
Config 2: Bumped back up to ~860 MP/s (my current config).
Console closed, run as service:
CPU ~33% utilization, GPU 0% utilization. CPU in boost. System power @ the plug is ~110W to ~120W. HW monitor says ~62W to the Ryzen.
CPU ~37% utilization, GPU 50% utilization. System power @ the plug is ~60W to ~65W. HW monitor says ~35W to the i7.
Console open, active local session:
CPU ~41% utilization, GPU ~8% utiliation, system power @ the plug is 125W to 135W. HW monitor says ~72W to the Ryzen.
CPU ~60% utilization, GPU 50% utilization. System power @ the plug is ~75W to ~80W. HW monitor says ~50W to the i7.
It is notable that when remoted via RDC, the CPU utilization rises less for the Ryzen than for the i7 7700. With console open I see around 75% - 80% CPU utilization when I'm running RDC on the i7 7700, compared with ~50% for the 1800x, which is also offloading some to its discrete GPU. I do demand fast refresh rates when running RDC, and this is my mission mode for watching the BI server, so YMMV. You can get less utilization with lower refresh rates, etc...
1800x with water cooler runs at ~50-55C (HWMonitor)
i7 runs around 70C-80C, depending on load. Less fans, etc on Optiplex, so quieter. (HWMonitor)
Plug power measurements observed from the readout of one of my UPSs.
FWIW, when I first fired up the i7, without HA, it blasted straight to >80% running a subset of my cameras. Enabled HW acceleration and it dropped ~40% (IIRC, I had console open), then I added cameras. This says both something about the AMD Ryzen raw processing power (scaling like a lot of the benchmarks) and it says a lot about the advantage of HW acceleration and the very specific design of the i7 + Optiplex 7050 (zero frills enterprise desktop vs a loaded high end, GPU'd PC with a hugely featured mobo temporarily purposed into being a BI server).
So overall, my assessment is presently this (some of it will be stating what is already common knowledge):
Optiplex i7700 will be more efficient than 1800x for running a dedicated BI server box for my application (and for many others, as well). For my use (RDC especially, and at the demanded frame rates, 860 MP/s), I am pushing the limits of the i7 7700. I can add a few more MP/s, but not proportionately many before I have to start giving up the experience I want. I can probably extend its life a little if I can figure out how to add an small discrete GPU. Even paying the 'higher' price I paid for a Dell Refurb where I didn't shop around a ton ($740 to my doorstep, tax included), it's still significantly cheaper to purchase than to build one myself. Similar option does not presently exist for AMD. That said, if one includes the price of 4TB WD purple, maybe larger than 128GB SSD, etc. the proportionate price advantage reduces a little. YMMV, demanding on what features you want and how long you want to spend bargain hunting.
Excluding the power or cost arguments, Ryzen 1800X will run BI as well as (running as a service) or better than (Esp console open RDC high frame rates) an i7 7700 from an 'experience' perspective for my pretty demanding (config. Therefore if one wants to try out BI and has a Ryzen box sitting around, IMO they'll prob get a decent experience. But it will use more power for various reasons. That said, IMO, ~110W is hardly the office heater that is my ~250W at idle i7 950 with a gigantic GPU, esp given the non BI capabilities of the box.
On its own, my home network (inc POE cams) + IR now uses more than 150W...
** There may be additional tweaks which change this assessment. Not trying to mislead, etc.
<complete> I'll try to get my new Optiplex with the i7 7700 up and running over the weekend and post up its specs with an identical load. I suspect it'll use less watts due to HW acceleration + having the most bare bones mobo I think I've ever seen, but I am slightly concerned how it'll eat 860 MB/s.</complete>
Various disclosures:
- I did not buy the GPU for the purpose of utilizing blue iris, nor do I recommend it for a blue iris specific application.
- No misleading is intended, not recommending a Ryzen as better than an i7 for BI, see my prior posts about it being what I had around, not a home security expert.
- I am an old school fan of AMD and think the Ryzen is comparable to an i7 in a lot of respects. I think it's cool that they have some competitive processors out now.
- I am a bigger fan of data and truth, therefore the long posts in this thread. I like to measure stuff and look at the data.
- AMD System specs:
Ryzen 7 1800x, evo 960 M.2, WD purple 4TB, 32GB DDR42667, Corsair HX1000i, AMD WX5100, Win10 pro, some gamer mobo with flashing lights and 'armor'.
- Objective is to put out some data points on the above config.
- Intel System specs:
i7 7700, 128GB M.2, WD purple 4TB, 16GB DDR42400, Bronze 240W PS, headless, Win10 pro, micro ATX?. Dell Refurb Optiplex 7050. Fresh non-Dell Win10pro install, 21.20.16.4664 drivers.
Got a GPU which happens to be more appropriate for the application, AMD WX5100, so I put it in the 1800x box as an experiment before it goes to its new home. Still not optimal, but I'll prob be within 10W of the best I can do GPU-wise when it's seeing little utilization, so there won't be much more upside. edit: Also got my i7 7700 Optiplex 7050 up and running, can post back to back numbers.
AMD 1800X = RED, INTEL I7 7700 = BLUE.
Identical config copapasta over via Blue Iris's nice features. Only adjustment is to enable HW accel for Intel.
Config 1: Disabled a few cams to get near where I was @ the OP. ~460 MP/s according to BI status.
Console closed, run as service: CPU ~15% utilization, GPU 0% utilization. System power @ the plug is ~85W to ~90W. HW monitor says ~38W to the Ryzen.
Console open, active local session: CPU ~19% utilization, GPU ~7% utiliation, system power @ the plug is 95W to 105W. HW monitor says ~45W to the Ryzen.
<I'll try to gather i7 7700 data in this config at a later time.>
(A car just drove by, should trigger one of the cameras, and I'm pretty certain I saw the watts jump by ~10W for a min, then drop back down. It is notable that there is not a lot of triggering going on during these readings.)
Config 2: Bumped back up to ~860 MP/s (my current config).
Console closed, run as service:
CPU ~33% utilization, GPU 0% utilization. CPU in boost. System power @ the plug is ~110W to ~120W. HW monitor says ~62W to the Ryzen.
CPU ~37% utilization, GPU 50% utilization. System power @ the plug is ~60W to ~65W. HW monitor says ~35W to the i7.
Console open, active local session:
CPU ~41% utilization, GPU ~8% utiliation, system power @ the plug is 125W to 135W. HW monitor says ~72W to the Ryzen.
CPU ~60% utilization, GPU 50% utilization. System power @ the plug is ~75W to ~80W. HW monitor says ~50W to the i7.
It is notable that when remoted via RDC, the CPU utilization rises less for the Ryzen than for the i7 7700. With console open I see around 75% - 80% CPU utilization when I'm running RDC on the i7 7700, compared with ~50% for the 1800x, which is also offloading some to its discrete GPU. I do demand fast refresh rates when running RDC, and this is my mission mode for watching the BI server, so YMMV. You can get less utilization with lower refresh rates, etc...
1800x with water cooler runs at ~50-55C (HWMonitor)
i7 runs around 70C-80C, depending on load. Less fans, etc on Optiplex, so quieter. (HWMonitor)
Plug power measurements observed from the readout of one of my UPSs.
FWIW, when I first fired up the i7, without HA, it blasted straight to >80% running a subset of my cameras. Enabled HW acceleration and it dropped ~40% (IIRC, I had console open), then I added cameras. This says both something about the AMD Ryzen raw processing power (scaling like a lot of the benchmarks) and it says a lot about the advantage of HW acceleration and the very specific design of the i7 + Optiplex 7050 (zero frills enterprise desktop vs a loaded high end, GPU'd PC with a hugely featured mobo temporarily purposed into being a BI server).
So overall, my assessment is presently this (some of it will be stating what is already common knowledge):
Optiplex i7700 will be more efficient than 1800x for running a dedicated BI server box for my application (and for many others, as well). For my use (RDC especially, and at the demanded frame rates, 860 MP/s), I am pushing the limits of the i7 7700. I can add a few more MP/s, but not proportionately many before I have to start giving up the experience I want. I can probably extend its life a little if I can figure out how to add an small discrete GPU. Even paying the 'higher' price I paid for a Dell Refurb where I didn't shop around a ton ($740 to my doorstep, tax included), it's still significantly cheaper to purchase than to build one myself. Similar option does not presently exist for AMD. That said, if one includes the price of 4TB WD purple, maybe larger than 128GB SSD, etc. the proportionate price advantage reduces a little. YMMV, demanding on what features you want and how long you want to spend bargain hunting.
Excluding the power or cost arguments, Ryzen 1800X will run BI as well as (running as a service) or better than (Esp console open RDC high frame rates) an i7 7700 from an 'experience' perspective for my pretty demanding (config. Therefore if one wants to try out BI and has a Ryzen box sitting around, IMO they'll prob get a decent experience. But it will use more power for various reasons. That said, IMO, ~110W is hardly the office heater that is my ~250W at idle i7 950 with a gigantic GPU, esp given the non BI capabilities of the box.
On its own, my home network (inc POE cams) + IR now uses more than 150W...
** There may be additional tweaks which change this assessment. Not trying to mislead, etc.
<complete> I'll try to get my new Optiplex with the i7 7700 up and running over the weekend and post up its specs with an identical load. I suspect it'll use less watts due to HW acceleration + having the most bare bones mobo I think I've ever seen, but I am slightly concerned how it'll eat 860 MB/s.</complete>
Various disclosures:
- I did not buy the GPU for the purpose of utilizing blue iris, nor do I recommend it for a blue iris specific application.
- No misleading is intended, not recommending a Ryzen as better than an i7 for BI, see my prior posts about it being what I had around, not a home security expert.
- I am an old school fan of AMD and think the Ryzen is comparable to an i7 in a lot of respects. I think it's cool that they have some competitive processors out now.
- I am a bigger fan of data and truth, therefore the long posts in this thread. I like to measure stuff and look at the data.
- AMD System specs:
Ryzen 7 1800x, evo 960 M.2, WD purple 4TB, 32GB DDR42667, Corsair HX1000i, AMD WX5100, Win10 pro, some gamer mobo with flashing lights and 'armor'.
- Objective is to put out some data points on the above config.
- Intel System specs:
i7 7700, 128GB M.2, WD purple 4TB, 16GB DDR42400, Bronze 240W PS, headless, Win10 pro, micro ATX?. Dell Refurb Optiplex 7050. Fresh non-Dell Win10pro install, 21.20.16.4664 drivers.
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note: data post updated with i7 7700 commentary.
tl;dr:
IMO, excluding power and cost, AMD 1800x experience (esp WRT CPU utilization) is similar to, or a little better than, i7 7700x (running HA) for running BI. Nice and slick.
i7 7700x refurb Optiplex is superior in the particular application of running a dedicated BI box because, cost and power (esp due to hardware acceleration and availability of very bare bones Enterprise Refurbs).
tl;dr:
IMO, excluding power and cost, AMD 1800x experience (esp WRT CPU utilization) is similar to, or a little better than, i7 7700x (running HA) for running BI. Nice and slick.
i7 7700x refurb Optiplex is superior in the particular application of running a dedicated BI box because, cost and power (esp due to hardware acceleration and availability of very bare bones Enterprise Refurbs).
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fenderman
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also note that the new eighth gen intels will blow away the 7th...in a few months they will be available as refurbed for cheap. What is the power consumption of the intel box? Cpu consumption under the same load?
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re: 8th gen, I'll probably need an i7 8700 when I grow my cameras in the not too distant future, but I bought the 7700 expecting such. Can prob sell the 7700 at an acceptable price when the time comes. Looks like it'll be able to get close to what I think I want, if not all the way there (~1400 MP/s load, slick RDC behavior). That said, at the moment, I'm branching off into a lot of network upgrades in the immediate future, and may find more tweaks with how I have the BI set up.
re: Power consumption, not sure if I'm misunderstanding. I posted power consumption for both boxes at the plug (UPS reading) and by pkg (HWMonitor), at least in the cotext of 860 MP/s load on each box for running as service and for BI console active (local, no RDC).
kill-a-watt came in and aligns well with the UPS power reading for a few measurements, so I expect any revisiting would be in the noise.
If you mean 50% CPU utilization against 50% CPU utilization or something similar, I could try to get them closer by removing cams from the i7, but that'd mean comparing less MP/s on the i7 7700 box vs more MP/s on the 1800x box. I can grab the numbers for the i7 7700 860 MP/s + RDC + BI console later today, but I don't think I grabbed them for the 1800x, will have to check old posts, maybe they're somewhere in this thread... RDC + BI console might skew a little toward AMD because of less increase in processor utilization, and an approximately fixed power budget for its overspec'd mobo, RAM, etc. Unsure how GPU behavior would affect it, maybe it's a wash...
re: Power consumption, not sure if I'm misunderstanding. I posted power consumption for both boxes at the plug (UPS reading) and by pkg (HWMonitor), at least in the cotext of 860 MP/s load on each box for running as service and for BI console active (local, no RDC).
kill-a-watt came in and aligns well with the UPS power reading for a few measurements, so I expect any revisiting would be in the noise.
If you mean 50% CPU utilization against 50% CPU utilization or something similar, I could try to get them closer by removing cams from the i7, but that'd mean comparing less MP/s on the i7 7700 box vs more MP/s on the 1800x box. I can grab the numbers for the i7 7700 860 MP/s + RDC + BI console later today, but I don't think I grabbed them for the 1800x, will have to check old posts, maybe they're somewhere in this thread... RDC + BI console might skew a little toward AMD because of less increase in processor utilization, and an approximately fixed power budget for its overspec'd mobo, RAM, etc. Unsure how GPU behavior would affect it, maybe it's a wash...
fenderman
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There is no image in your post.... It looks like it didn't upload correctly