Camera Advice

[TxEx89]

Please help. Iv'e scoured reddit and here as I plan a camera security system for a new build home. There is some great advice (I've read the Cliff's Notes), but still I have a lot of confusion. I'm interested in a quality IP, POE, wired system, with remote monitoring and that will end up having about a dozen cameras. It's a lake house, so it will frequently be empty (day and night are both risks) and there are some long distance areas that need to be covered (drive in, between house and boat dock). So......

Cameras: I appreciate the "workhorse" Dahua 5442s. If I wanted higher quality, what is the next step up in terms of other Dahua models or other brands? If I wanted to avoid China camera issues or the risk they get banned in the U.S., is Hanwha a good alternative? Any others that aren't stupid expensive (i.e., Axis)?

Monitoring: I don't fully understand the trade-offs between a Dahua or other NVR, Blue Iris / Synology Surveillance station, or other alternatives. I don't want monthly fees but also don't need something super complex. I'm not a network/tech expert and don't want an admin hassle.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.

 

[wittaj]

Welcome!

Good thing you came here before purchasing!

First off, the ban is only for government agencies and such - it does not impact the homeowner.

This is a good read, and in particular post #52. Basically unless you are a government agency, you can keep buying.

US President Signs Bill Into Law Requiring FCC To Ban Further Authorizations of Dahua and Hikvision

See; Bill Signed: H.R. 3919 | The White House and Text - H.R.3919 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Secure Equipment Act of 2021 H.R. 3919, the “Secure Equipment Act of 2021,” which requires the Federal Communications Commission to adopt rules clarifying that it will no longer review or approve any...

ipcamtalk.com

We keep our cameras from talking to the internet, so the issue is a moot point. The government fails to realize that and is essentially pushing other companies such as AXIS that have had breaches as well. EVERY manufacturer has been hacked - keep the cameras off the internet!

The 5442s are the workhorse. There is the 4K/X camera that is newer and better, but it cannot see infrared (nor is there a varifocal option yet), so if you do not have enough light around the house, or do not want the white LEDs on, they you want a camera with IR capabilities.

Not all cameras are created equal. You need to decide the distance you want to IDENTIFY and then purchase the correct camera for that distance, which in some cases may be a 2MP. But regardless, do not chase MP, chase sensor size. See this post, along with recommendations based on distance:

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

At the urging of several folks here, I created a thread to show the importance of focal length and how focal length can be more important than megapixels (MP). I mentioned some of this in the post regarding The Hookup’s latest video demonstrating different cameras, including one sold from a...

ipcamtalk.com

Generally with an NVR, you need to match brand NVR with camera. You may get some flexibility with another camera that is ONVIF compliant, but you will probably lose some functionality.

Keep in mind an NVR is simply a stripped down computer after all... And this would allow you the flexibility to mix camera brands and then be able to get the right camera for the right location.

You don't need to buy components and build one, or buy a new computer either.

When I was looking at replacing an existing NVR, once I realized that not all NVRs are created equal (the bandwidth is can process is a huge limiting factor), and once I priced out a good one, it was cheaper to buy a refurbished computer than an NVR.

Many of us buy refurbished computers that are business class computers that have come off lease. The one I bought I kid you not I could not tell that it was a refurbished unit - not a speck of dust or dents or scratches on it. It appeared to me like everything was replaced and I would assume just the motherboard with the intel processor is what was from the original unit. I went with the lowest end processor on the WIKI list as it was the cheapest and it runs my system fine. Could probably get going for $200 or so. A real NVR will cost more than that.

A member here a couple months ago found a refurbished 4th generation for less than $150USD that came with Win10 PRO, 16GB RAM, and a 1TB drive. You won't find a capable NVR cheaper than that...

Blue Iris has a demo, so try it out on an existing computer and see if you like it.

There is a big Blue Iris or NVR debate here LOL. Some people love Blue Iris and think NVRs are clunky and hard to use and others think Blue Iris is clunky and hard to use. I have done both and prefer Blue Iris. As with everything YMMV...

And you can disable Windows updates and set up the computer to automatically restart in a power failure, and then you have a more powerful NVR with a nice mobile viewing interface.

Blue Iris is great and works with probably more camera brands than most VMS programs, but there are brands that don't work well or not at all - Rings, Arlos, Nest, Some Zmodo cams use proprietary systems and cannot be used with Blue Iris, and for a lot of people Reolink doesn't work well either. But we would recommend staying away from those brands even if you go the NVR route with one of those brands...

Personally I have found the feed from BI to use a lot less "internet" than trying to stream the NVR. YMMV.

But whether you go with an NVR or Blue Iris, there will be a respective app for you to see your system.

And then you VPN back into your system so that you keep the cameras off the internet. Many routers have OpenVPN built in to them for that reason. This VPN is free. A paid VPN is to hide your IP for porno and illegal streaming.

 

[The Automation Guy]

I'll just add my 2 cents...

As far as using Chinese devices.... For the home user, it is fine. Regardless of the manufacturer of your CCTV (and other IOT devices) you never want to allow them access to the internet or really even the rest of your network. If you practice these basic network security rules, you will have not trouble using Chinese devices. As I side note, I totally agree with the Gov. ban on using these devices in gov facilities. I've posted this several times, but governments, utilities, and other sensitive industries/companies need to worry a lot more about cyber security. Specifically the camera could be used as a trojan horse to bring in a very specific and offensive weapon type of virus to attack sensitive equipment. Look no farther than the Stuxnet virus that was written to only effect the Iranian nuclear centrifuges - which were located on a secure and isolated network without internet access. That virus had to "find" its way into the facility (ultimately by an hapless employee that connected an infected computer to the isolated network). How much easier would it be for the Chinese to mount this type of attack if the US willingly brought Chinese cameras or IOT devices (acting as a trojan horse with a virus already imbedded in it) into their secure and isolated networks and hook them up themselves. However, unless you have nuclear centrifuges or missile launch computers on your network, the average person doesn't have to worry about this type of risk.

As far as camera selection.... the Dahua 5442 series and the new 4k/x color cameras are still the best "bang for the buck" out there. I'd rather have the new 4k/x models in situations were I have adequate ambient light. However as Wittaj noted, the 4k/x models don't have any IR capabilities, so in very low/no light situations the 5442 series with IR (there are some models without) are probably a better option.

Monitoring - BlueIris is not expensive or hard to set up. Yet it provides probably the most flexible option when it comes to recording CCTV feeds. Would a NVR be a little more turn key vs BI, probably - but the NVR would also be a lot more inflexible. I definitely think BI is the best choice out there. As far as actual monitoring, in either case you should set up a VPN on your network so that you can securely access the network while being remote. However that solution should be in place with either choice, so that shouldn't be a deciding factor.

 

[TxEx89]

Very helpful, guys. Thank you very much. I understand about putting the cameras on a separate VLAN with no internet access. As long as no one expects the companies to get kicked out of the US anytime soon, I'm fine with them. Two follow up questions.

1) I will have a couple of areas with the need for a long distance (100'+; longer is better) at night with low ambient light (no street lights, neighbors, etc.). What is the best solution there, even if more expensive?

2) If I did want better performance than the 5442s, what brand/product line is the next step up from there?

Many, many thanks.

 

[sebastiantombs]

1) The simplest, and least expensive thing to do, is to add auxiliary IR illuminators. I use a big one, 30 watts, to light up the whole back yard to about 200 feet from the cameras.

External IR
Blaster

Amazon.com

Smaller IR

Amazon.com

2) For better performance have a look at these and "better" is very dependent on the specific conditions the camera will be operating with. Some of these are "full color" which means they don't see infrared light so in very dark situations they won't work well.

8MP Review

Worlds First Review - Dahua - IPC-Color4K-X / DH-IPC-HFW5849T1-ASE-LED - Full Color 4K Camera

Intro I’m excited to be doing another Worlds First Review. this time as I mentioned in the full color thread, I’ve been testing the new Dahua full color 4K camera. This was provided courtesy of @EMPIRETECANDY for a fair, honest, no holds barred, unbiased review. I’ll attempt to answer any and...

ipcamtalk.com

Worlds First Review - Dahua DH-IPC-HDW5849H-ASE-LED / IPC-Color4K-T - 2.8mm Turret

Ok, who's ready for not only a review BUT another World's First Review ? You heard it here first, new camera in hands and almost ready to review. Thanks as always goes to Andy (@EMPIRETECANDY) for providing this camera in exchange for a fair, honest, non biased, no holds barred review. I’ve...

ipcamtalk.com

2021 Full Color 2.0 Has a Fantastic New Dual Lens Camera

Hey guys The full color 2.0 has been released. Most cams I already posted here. Like: IPC-Color4K-X Bullet 4MP Motorized Full color. Today I bring a secret model, 1st release for the Dual-Lens Full color model in the world. Dual-lens Camera( Sample at Early Sep ) Ø Dual light fusion...

ipcamtalk.com

Worlds First Review - Dahua DH-IPC-PFW5849-A180-E2 - Dual Lens 180 Degree Full Color 4K (8MP Stitched) Camera

Intro I’m pleased to announce we have another worlds first review to kick off, this time on the new Dahua DH-IPC-PFW5849-A180-E2. What’s this camera all about ? Well in a nutshell, take 2 x 5442T’s, squeeze them together, apply splicing algorithms and end up with a stitched 8MP (4096 x 1800...

ipcamtalk.com

Dual Lens

Worlds First Review - Dahua DH-IPC-HFW5449T1-ASE+D2 - Dual Lens Full Color 2.0

Intro I’m pleased to announce we have another worlds first review to kick off, this time on the new HFW5449T1. So whats better than 1 camera (lens), well 2 of course. This camera makes some bold claims of Full Color regardless of low light environments utilizing 2 lenses. Lets jump into it but...

ipcamtalk.com

Review: Dahua DH-IPC-MFW7442K1-Z4-T40 - Dual Sensor (4MP + 4MP) Bullet Camera

Hope all of you are doing well ! Intro Its time to do another review and this time (as you may have seen in my Coming Soon video), we have 2 of them. Both of these cams are from the same MFW-7x42K1 family and feature dual sensors. I have the 7442 (4MP) and 7842 (8MP) versions of these cams...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[The Automation Guy]

Very helpful, guys. Thank you very much. I understand about putting the cameras on a separate VLAN with no internet access. As long as no one expects the companies to get kicked out of the US anytime soon, I'm fine with them. Two follow up questions.

1) I will have a couple of areas with the need for a long distance (100'+; longer is better) at night with low ambient light (no street lights, neighbors, etc.). What is the best solution there, even if more expensive?

2) If I did want better performance than the 5442s, what brand/product line is the next step up from there?

Many, many thanks.

As far as your questions....

1) To reach out 100' or more, there are really two choices that are recommended.....

• the Dahua IPC-HFW5241E-Z12E - this is a 1080p camera with a 1/2.8" sensor, but with a 5mm-60mm focal length so it can really zoom in and capture things far away. This is a very common option for nighttime license plate captures for example because you can zoom in and capture very clean images at pretty far distances. You can expect good footage out to perhaps 225' but it is a fixed camera which cannot be moved via software, so your target area has to be fixed.
• some sort of PTZ camera (a whole different topic) if you need to be able to move the camera around to view different things. We have recommendations when it comes to these too.

2) Is there anything better than the Dahua recommendations.....
With any camera purchase, you have to remember that the laws of physics apply, regardless of what a company's marketing material says. This means that the camera's sensor size and overall resolution will play the biggest role in determining low/no light performance. Any Most cameras will look good during the day when there is plenty of light, but the "good" cameras separate themselves from the rest in low/no light situations. Larger sensors and low pixel density (resolution) will result in better low/no light performance. Of course you have to balance the total resolution - too large and it won't perform well at night, too small and it won't provide enough detail to identify anything.

One of the primary reasons the 5442 series performs well at night is it's combination of a 1/1.8" sensor size and 4mp resolution. It's a relatively large sensor with moderate resolution. The 4k/x model has a higher resolution (so more detail all things being equal) and a larger sensor size of 1/1.2" to prevent the pixel density from becoming too small.

Here are the common "best performing" ratios:
at 1080p - sensor size no smaller than 1/2.8" - (so 1/1.8", 1/1.2" or 4/3" would be better)
at 4mp (2k) - sensor size no smaller than 1/1.8" - (so 1/1.2" or 4/3" would be better)
at 8mp (4k) - sensor size no smaller than 1/1.2" - (so 4/3" would be better)
To get a camera that performs better than the suggested models, you'll have to look for a camera that beats these numbers.

There are some cameras with a Sony 4/3" sensor that would likely beat the performance of the 5442 and 4k/x if you can find them. My understanding is that it is that chip is virtually non-existent in this post-covid production world we live in today. For example, Axis makes the Q1798-LE, but it sells for $1900 and is unavailable currently. Dahua made a big PTZ camera with the 4/3" sensor (SD8A820WA-HNF) that was about $2600 but it has been discontinued due to chip unavailability. Due to the cost and lack of availability, there haven't been a lot of examples cameras with the 4/3" sensor on this forum however to know how they really perform in real life.

 

[The Automation Guy]

Also, if you haven't found IPVM Designer / Calculator yet, I suggest that you play around with it.

You can enter your exact location and then add cameras (and choose the specific model that you want to look at) that overlay your property. You can play around with what focal lengths and camera resolution will work for your situation. The wider the focal length, the closer a subject has to be to identify it. This is represented in both the overlay color (darker is better) as well as the simulated view on the right side. Just keep in mind that this calculator does not attempt to represent the actual low light performance of any camera. So while it's helpful in determining what focal length might be appropriate, it isn't the only consideration.

Be sure to play around with all the settings. For example, the blind spot indicator is pretty helpful (assuming you enter the mounting height correctly), but not turned on by default.

 

[mat200]

Please help. Iv'e scoured reddit and here as I plan a camera security system for a new build home. There is some great advice (I've read the Cliff's Notes), but still I have a lot of confusion. I'm interested in a quality IP, POE, wired system, with remote monitoring and that will end up having about a dozen cameras. It's a lake house, so it will frequently be empty (day and night are both risks) and there are some long distance areas that need to be covered (drive in, between house and boat dock). So......

Cameras: I appreciate the "workhorse" Dahua 5442s. If I wanted higher quality, what is the next step up in terms of other Dahua models or other brands? If I wanted to avoid China camera issues or the risk they get banned in the U.S., is Hanwha a good alternative? Any others that aren't stupid expensive (i.e., Axis)?

Monitoring: I don't fully understand the trade-offs between a Dahua or other NVR, Blue Iris / Synology Surveillance station, or other alternatives. I don't want monthly fees but also don't need something super complex. I'm not a network/tech expert and don't want an admin hassle.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.

Welcome @TxEx89

Tech will change over the course of the lifetime of the house ..

My recommendation is to focus on getting the positions done well so you can get cables to the right places ..

N+1+ rule .. ( run at least one extra cat5e/6 cable to each location you plan .. )

Remember to consider all low voltage cabling needs .. security alarms also ..

Make certain you a have a secured and vented location for the IT equipment ..