Camera upgrade.

[Beto86]

Hi all from socal I got some security cameras installed back in 18' I think at the time the installer told me that they had just come out with 4K cameras so of course I had to get them. From the start at night black and white was almost a white screen I couldn't see anything. I started messing with them and left them in full color 24/7 but still at night I will only get color where there was light the rest just black. Ive lived with them since then but now I started noticing some new 24/7 color cameras so I started searching and I ended up here. I tried searching for my cameras on here but I didn't find them i'll link them so you guys can tell me what you think. During the day they look good problem is at night. After reading I noticed a lot of people using Blue Iris instead of an NVR Im assuming because of the use of different brand of cameras. One more thing these cameras only have the basic motion detection so searching for anything is a nightmare. What do you guys recommend I do take the whole system out, keep some cameras that don't need B/W at night.

Thanks

Camera link

 

[wittaj]

Your installer put in budget 4K cameras that are not on ideal MP/sensor ratio. A 2MP will kick it's butt all night long....

I am sure the static image looks ok, but what about motion? I suspect everything is on auto/default settings.

See this thread that shows the importance of focal length over MP, along with camera recommendations based on distance you want to IDENTIFY:

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

At the urging of several folks here, I created a thread to show the importance of focal length and how focal length can be more important than megapixels (MP). I mentioned some of this in the post regarding The Hookup’s latest video demonstrating different cameras, including one sold from a...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[Beto86]

Your installer put in budget 4K cameras that are not on ideal MP/sensor ratio. A 2MP will kick it's butt all night long....

I am sure the static image looks ok, but what about motion? I suspect everything is on auto/default settings.

See this thread that shows the importance of focal length over MP, along with camera recommendations based on distance you want to IDENTIFY:

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

At the urging of several folks here, I created a thread to show the importance of focal length and how focal length can be more important than megapixels (MP). I mentioned some of this in the post regarding The Hookup’s latest video demonstrating different cameras, including one sold from a...

ipcamtalk.com

Problem with motion is a lot of false alarms that's why I was thinking of getting blue iris and yes everything is set to default. Thanks for the link

 

[wittaj]

The newer and better cameras have AI in them that work well with BI or a newer NVR.

Who uses Dahua AI capable cameras? Reliable AI for triggering events? Pro's/con's?

It has come to my attention that certain Dahua cameras come with built in AI that distinguishes between human & cars. I was unaware of this. Well, always saw the AI word used in the reviews but never really thought about it because I thought it was a Dahua NVR integration only. I am currently...

ipcamtalk.com

For most applications, the Dahua and Hik OEMs with AI range from $120ish to $250ish which most of us have found is the price vs performance sweet spot. When I was looking at replacing an existing NVR, once I realized that not all NVRs are created equal (the bandwidth is can process is a huge limiting factor), and once I priced out a good one, it was cheaper to buy a refurbished computer than an NVR.

Many of us buy refurbished computers that are business class computers that have come off lease. The one I bought I kid you not I could not tell that it was a refurbished unit - not a speck of dust or dents or scratches on it. It appeared to me like everything was replaced and I would assume just the motherboard with the intel processor is what was from the original unit. I went with the lowest end processor on the WIKI list as it was the cheapest and it runs my system fine. Could probably get going for $200 or so. A real NVR will cost more than that.

A member here a couple months ago found a refurbished 4th generation for less than $150USD that came with Win10 PRO, 16GB RAM, and a 1TB drive. You won't find a capable NVR cheaper than that...

Blue Iris has a demo, so try it out on an existing computer and see if you like it.

There is a big Blue Iris or NVR debate here LOL. Some people love Blue Iris and think NVRs are clunky and hard to use and others think Blue Iris is clunky and hard to use. I have done both and prefer Blue Iris. As with everything YMMV...

And you can disable Windows updates and set up the computer to automatically restart in a power failure, and then you have a more powerful NVR with a nice mobile viewing interface.

Blue Iris is great and works with probably more camera brands than most VMS programs, but there are brands that don't work well or not at all - Rings, Arlos, Nest, Some Zmodo cams use proprietary systems and cannot be used with Blue Iris, and for a lot of people Reolink doesn't work well either. But we would recommend staying away from those brands even if you go the NVR route with one of those brands...

 

[looney2ns]

You can find refurbed, Optiplex and Elitedesk pcs with I5-8500 cpus for approx $200 or less.
I wouldn't purchase anything at this point lower then 8th gen processors.

SebastianTombs Cam Tips

 

[Beto86]

The newer and better cameras have AI in them that work well with BI or a newer NVR.

Who uses Dahua AI capable cameras? Reliable AI for triggering events? Pro's/con's?

It has come to my attention that certain Dahua cameras come with built in AI that distinguishes between human & cars. I was unaware of this. Well, always saw the AI word used in the reviews but never really thought about it because I thought it was a Dahua NVR integration only. I am currently...

ipcamtalk.com

For most applications, the Dahua and Hik OEMs with AI range from $120ish to $250ish which most of us have found is the price vs performance sweet spot. When I was looking at replacing an existing NVR, once I realized that not all NVRs are created equal (the bandwidth is can process is a huge limiting factor), and once I priced out a good one, it was cheaper to buy a refurbished computer than an NVR.

Many of us buy refurbished computers that are business class computers that have come off lease. The one I bought I kid you not I could not tell that it was a refurbished unit - not a speck of dust or dents or scratches on it. It appeared to me like everything was replaced and I would assume just the motherboard with the intel processor is what was from the original unit. I went with the lowest end processor on the WIKI list as it was the cheapest and it runs my system fine. Could probably get going for $200 or so. A real NVR will cost more than that.

A member here a couple months ago found a refurbished 4th generation for less than $150USD that came with Win10 PRO, 16GB RAM, and a 1TB drive. You won't find a capable NVR cheaper than that...

Blue Iris has a demo, so try it out on an existing computer and see if you like it.

There is a big Blue Iris or NVR debate here LOL. Some people love Blue Iris and think NVRs are clunky and hard to use and others think Blue Iris is clunky and hard to use. I have done both and prefer Blue Iris. As with everything YMMV...

And you can disable Windows updates and set up the computer to automatically restart in a power failure, and then you have a more powerful NVR with a nice mobile viewing interface.

Blue Iris is great and works with probably more camera brands than most VMS programs, but there are brands that don't work well or not at all - Rings, Arlos, Nest, Some Zmodo cams use proprietary systems and cannot be used with Blue Iris, and for a lot of people Reolink doesn't work well either. But we would recommend staying away from those brands even if you go the NVR route with one of those brands...

Thanks for all the info I'm not gonna lie its pretty overwhelming. Do I start with measuring the area where I would like to see? is there somewhere where I can input that info to help me select the camera?

 

[wittaj]

You can use this calculator to get estimates of distances, but I wouldn't go completely by the sample resolutions they show you. It is a good tool in the toolbox, but much past 25 feet or so they will not look as good as the tool shows.

The recommendations of cameras in my post above are considered the "standards" or king of the cameras for their respective distances.

IPVM Designer / Calculator

Using Google Maps, layout and design cameras, choosing from 10,000+ models, delivering FoV and image quality previews plus export to PDF, Powerpoint and more

calculator.ipvm.com

 

[DanDenver]

I ran a NVR for about 4 years. My wife dropped out after just one month due to all the false alerts (wind, bunnies, shadows, etc). With a system like that a lot is recorded, but you have to manually sift through the clips to see what was recorded.

Then about 2 years ago I finally moved to BI and it was incredible. Slight learning curve, but not bad. I had friends with BI but I resisted moving to it for years. But I am so glad I did.

Now I get alerts that have meaning. When I have food delivered and they ring the door bell I get an alert from BI generally within seconds of the door bell ringing. The best part is that most of these delivery people do not ring the door bell, so BI lets me know that they have dropped off the food.

One of the nice aspects of BI (unlike most/many NVR’s) you can mix and match cameras. I started out with 6 LaView 4MP cameras, but today I own all sorts of brands. So I was able to get up and running with my existing cameras and upgrade at a pace that was financially comfortable for me.

All I can say is that BI with AI is super effective at not generating false alerts. I do get some, but the frequency is so low I don’t mind. I got so many false alerts with my NVR I just turned off the alerts! I just did not know there was something better at the time. I thought BI was ‘difficult‘ to get up and running, but getting a NVR up and running was roughly equally challenging for me. The big difference is that once BI is up and running, you have something that adds value to your day from a security perspective.

 

[Beto86]

I was looking at this PC on eBay what do you guys think. I did see that @looney2ns mentioned not to get anything under 8th gen, what would this one lack?

PC

 

[sdkid]

I was looking at this PC on eBay what do you guys think. I did see that @looney2ns mentioned not to get anything under 8th gen, what would this one lack?

PC

The reason you don't want to use something less than 8th gen is the end of life for Windows 10 in a few years. You could get a cheaper one to use until then if you want, but you should consider spending $200 to $250 for a base unit that has that 8th gen processor. Be sure you look at HP Elitedesk 800 G4 models. They have 2 M.2 slots and can handle a standard SATA drive as well. You want the OS on an SSD (m.2) drive, and your storage on a WD Purple drive of whatever size you want.

 

[DanDenver]

Don't skip the purple drive. There is a wiki on this very forum that has many guidelines for not only what to buy, but how to tune the following Install of BI (link further up in this thread). I highly recommend reading this, taking notes and following the advice

 

[wittaj]

But at the same time if you have an older one laying around or get a great deal, go for it.

Running win10 after no longer supported isn't too big of a deal as long as the computer isn't used for anything else and anti-virus is up to date.

Many here have disabled windows updates and when the time comes windows 10 isn't supported, that system is still more protected than an NVR that has had very few firmware updates...

 

[sdkid]

But at the same time if you have an older one laying around or get a great deal, go for it.

Running win10 after no longer supported isn't too big of a deal as long as the computer isn't used for anything else and anti-virus is up to date.

Many here have disabled windows updates and when the time comes windows 10 isn't supported, that system is still more protected than an NVR that has had very few firmware updates...

he may need an old Win10 installer so he has IE... I bet a new installer download would leave IE out.

 

[wittaj]

^an often overlooked and very good point!

Even if Dahua comes out with a browser fix I am not updating my cams until IE is absolutely positively not available to me anymore. Not worth the risk of an update breaking something.

 

[Smilingreen]

Some of us are tight wads, refuse to update to 10 and still running Win7 Pro....and yet, BI runs just fine......

 

[Beto86]

After researching it seems like an nvr would be the cheaper option. I would need a poe switch plus a pc seems like I would be in the 400-500 dollar range.

 

[sebastiantombs]

Keep in mind that an NVR more or less locks you into using cameras from the same manufacturer as the NVR. Blue Iris on a PC will accept almost any camera available that is ONVIF compliant, or even close to ONVIF compliant. This may not seem important but in the long run it is very important.

 

[wittaj]

People have found capable computers for $200ish...

Keep in mind not all NVRs are crested equal - the cheap ones are only 80mbps bandwidth and will limit you. Once you price out a real NVR you will find the BI option is very attractive...

 

[VorlonFrog]

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HP PRODESK 600 G4 I7-8700T 8TH GEN 16GB/256GB SSD WIN10. I7-8700T 8TH GEN CPU [35WATT].

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HP ProDesk 600 G4 system with Core i7-8700T $220 + $15 s/h - Two available

 

[DanDenver]

I ran an NVR for three years and it sort of kind of worked (false alerts all day - my wife tapped out on week 4 as it was slowly proven that I could not lower the false alert frequency)

Also, as mentioned above they are proprietary and only work with a certain cameras, and the camera manufacturer went out of business!

I run all kinds of brands that are cheap and expensive on BI. You may think an NVR is less expensive, but remember, you are held hostage to whatever price they want for their cameras and their ain't no mix and match allowed.

I think an NVR is pretty good for pet monitoring, but if you are concerned about outdoor safety, do consider how annoying it will be if something bad ever happens and the police can't use the images due to poor quality.