Cams / NVR Arrived - Have I Made a Mistake :-/

[machineage]

Hi all
Well my order from Andy arrived, 2024 EmpireTech Thanksgiving Day Sales& Black Friday &Christmas Sales- Winter Sales, and I’m now at a loss as to what to do next. I’m relatively confident with regards the physical installation. However, I’ve just been reading about network security, partly read through the 81 page ‘VPN Primer for noobs’ thread, and I’ve quite literally lost the will to live. I daren’t connect / power anything up having read that. I didn’t really understand any of it. No idea what port forwarding is etc. I suspect I’ve made a mistake, and should possibly have opted for a lesser quality ‘off the shelf’ system for your average consumer. I don’t have a VPN, am purely Mac / iOS based, and use Apple’s iCloud Private Relay for browsing, which I’m guessing isn’t the same thing. I have an old router from my ISP (Virgin Media in the UK). I’ve also read the NVR / cams should never be connected to the internet. I was hoping to be able to remotely access the system / cams, which I assume can only be done via the internet? The learning curve is steep, and with everything else going on in my life currently (all stress related), I don’t think this is the route for me :-/

 

[wittaj]

Take a deep breath.

We assure you the consumer grade, lesser quality "off the shelf" will be much less secure...

You do not need the internet to set the system up.

You do need the internet if you want to access remotely.

You either set up a VPN or use something like ZeroTier, Wireguard, Tailscale or use P2P in the NVR. Any of those are much better than port forwarding.

But NONE of the better grade systems are true plug-n-play either. At a minimum you need to manually set shutter speeds.

If you want true plug-n-play simplicity, then go with one of the consumer brands - Ring, Arlo, Reolink, Nest, Blink, etc. They are true plug-n-play because those cameras all run on default/auto settings with very little, to no ability to change camera parameters. Just recognize nighttime motion quality will be poor.

Simply download their app and scan the camera QR code and you are up and running, with a better app experience also.

But their plug-n-play simplicity comes at a cost of nighttime performance and ability to customize stuff, but obviously many do not seem to care about that as those systems are popular and those consumer grade systems are a perfect fit for those that want simplicity and not having to learn how to use an NVR or other type of VMS system.

 

[samplenhold]

Those cams are good cams. You will not have a problem with them.

I do not know about NVRs as I am a Blue Iris guy. But from your other posts about the NVR, @bigredfish gave you good input. He runs Dahua NVRs, so maybe he could calm your nerves about internet security. I am sure he can give you info on setting it up.

 

[machineage]

Thanks @wittaj

I should perhaps have realised this is beyond my scope. Just looking at the scale of this forum alone, and the enormity of the topic, possibilities, parameters et al, should have been fair warning this isn't the route for me.

Granted the plug-n-play systems will be of lesser quality, esp. at night, but I'm not in complete darkness here, and I can easily augment nighttime lighting. I'm quite happy to experiment with cam settings etc for best results, it's all the other stuff that's got me snookered. And the security risks have troubled me.

I wonder what would be the 'best of the rest' amongst Ring, Arlo, Reolink, Nest, Blink et al, which are Mac compatible?
I might go with what's most respected, and sell this lot at a loss, which is fair enough, it's my mistake.

 

[wittaj]

Follow this thread. It will make your life a lot easier:

Thread '***PSA for those with a New DAHUA NVR with Built-in PoE switch'

Mar 1, 2020

IF you have a Dahua NVR with built-in PoE switch...

DO NOT follow instructions telling you to use the config tool or switch the IP of your cameras or initialize anything..!

With NVR's typically with a -P designation (Built-n PoE switch - example: 4208-8P-4KS2) none of that is required and it will often make a mess of things.


*On initial setup for the NVR and cameras, DO NOT enable P2P in the popup that asks you this. Uncheck that along with Auto updates. If you wish you can enable these later easily.

1- Fire up NVR using a mouse and monitor to do...

• bigredfish
• Replies: 494
• Forum: NVR's, DVR's & Computers

• 

 

[samplenhold]

Lots of folks here run NVRs with little real knowledge of these systems and do not have security issues.

Relax, that system will be fine. Do not let the VPN Primer for NOOBs thread scare you. It will be just fine.

 

[wittaj]

You cannot provide enough light at night for the consumer grade cameras to give decent video. Infrared puts out way more available "light" than visible and they struggle with that too.

You got this. Take it one camera at a time. Follow that thread I linked above. It will make life so much easier.

Let's first get the NVR set up and then decide the route for security.

Here is an entire thread showing examples of every type of consumer grade camera out there.

The Typical picture of a Perp on Nextdoor-type Apps with Consumer Grade Cameras like Ring, Nest, Arlo, Canary, Wyze, etc.


And then once the cameras are in the NVR, it is simple to start the next step.

In terms of getting the most out of the camera, here is my "standard" post that many use as a start for dialing in day and night that helps get the clean captures and help the camera recognize people and cars.

Start with:

H264
8192 bitrate
CBR
15FPS
15 iframes

Every field of view is different, but I have found you need contrast to usually be 6-8 higher than the brightness number at night.

We want the ability to freeze frame capture a clean image from the video at night, and that is only done with a shutter of 1/60 or faster. At night, default/auto may be on 1/12s shutter or worse to make the image bright.

In my opinion, shutter (exposure) and gain are the two most important parameters and then base the others off of it. Shutter is more important than FPS. It is the shutter speed that prevents motion blur, not FPS. 15 FPS is more than enough for surveillance cameras as we are not producing Hollywood movies. Match iframes to FPS. 15FPS is all that is usually needed.

Many people do not realize there is manual shutter that lets you adjust shutter and gain and a shutter priority that only lets you adjust shutter speed but not gain. The higher the gain, the bigger the noise and see-through ghosting start to appear because the noise is amplified. Most people select shutter priority and run a faster shutter than they should because it is likely being done at 100 gain, so it is actually defeating their purpose of a faster shutter.

Go into shutter settings and change to manual shutter and start with custom shutter as ms and change to 0-8.3ms and gain 0-50 (night) and 0-4ms exposure and 0-30 gain (day)for starters. Auto could have a shutter speed of 100ms or more with a gain at 100 and shutter priority could result in gain up at 100 which will contribute to significant ghosting and that blinding white you will get from the infrared or white light.

Now what you will notice immediately at night is that your image gets A LOT darker. That faster the shutter, the more light that is needed. But it is a balance. The nice bright night static image results in Casper blur and ghost during motion LOL. What do we want, a nice static image or a clean image when there is motion introduced to the scene?

In the daytime, if it is still too bright, then drop the 4ms down to 3ms then 2ms, etc. You have to play with it for your field of view.

Then at night, if it is too dark, then start adding ms to the time. Go to 10ms, 12ms, etc. until you find what you feel is acceptable as an image. Then have someone walk around and see if you can get a clean shot. Try not to go above 16.67ms (but certainly not above 30ms) as that tends to be the point where blur starts to occur. Conversely, if it is still bright, then drop down in time to get a faster shutter.

You can also adjust brightness and contrast to improve the image. But try not to go above 70 for anything and try to have contrast be at least 7-10 digits higher than brightness.

You can also add some gain to brighten the image - but the higher the gain, the more ghosting you get. Some cameras can go to 70 or so before it is an issue and some can't go over 50.

But adjusting those two settings will have the biggest impact. The next one is noise reduction. Want to keep that as low as possible. Depending on the amount of light you have, you might be able to get down to 40 or so at night (again camera dependent) and 20-30 during the day, but take it as low as you can before it gets too noisy. Again this one is a balance as well. Too smooth and no noise can result in soft images and contribute to blur.

Do not use backlight features until you have exhausted every other parameter setting. And if you do have to use backlight, take it down as low as possible.

After every setting adjustment, have someone walk around outside and see if you can freeze-frame to get a clean image. If not, keep changing until you do. Clean motion pictures are what we are after, not a clean static image.

 

[machineage]

Thanks @wittaj et al.

It’s 5.25am here, and I haven’t got it in me to read through another 25 pages

What I will say though, is the support here has been / is fantastic. It’s a cost to you all - your time, your patience with noobs like me, your giving of your knowledge and experience, all for free. I feel I should make a go at it, for that alone.

I’m going to get some sleep, and hopefully with a new day, and another marathon reading exercise, I might give it a go.

 

[wittaj]

You got it!

Cliff notes version:

Turn on NVR and hook to a TV/monitor.

Internet is optional at this point, but let's go without it for now.

It will ask you to create a password to go with the admin username.

Will ask a few more things - you can answer or wait until later.

Next plug ONE camera into port 1 - wait for it to show up on the monitor. Could be 30 seconds or 10 minutes.

But DO NOT plug in another camera until the previous camera shows up on the screen.

Once that camera shows up, then plug in the next camera. Wait until it shows up. Repeat for any additional cameras.

Now you have the basic system up and running on default settings.

Then we dig into the settings. But let is sit a day or two and see how it performs and if you want to angle the camera different and stuff like that.

But just take it into chunks. None of us set up the system to our needs/desires/wants in one sitting.

 

[mat200]

Thanks @wittaj

I should perhaps have realised this is beyond my scope. Just looking at the scale of this forum alone, and the enormity of the topic, possibilities, parameters et al, should have been fair warning this isn't the route for me.

Granted the plug-n-play systems will be of lesser quality, esp. at night, but I'm not in complete darkness here, and I can easily augment nighttime lighting. I'm quite happy to experiment with cam settings etc for best results, it's all the other stuff that's got me snookered. And the security risks have troubled me.

I wonder what would be the 'best of the rest' amongst Ring, Arlo, Reolink, Nest, Blink et al, which are Mac compatible?
I might go with what's most respected, and sell this lot at a loss, which is fair enough, it's my mistake.

once option, a hybrid version

a) setup wired IP PoE core system as a stand alone system. ( that is no internet access )
b) buy cheap cloud cameras for quick remote views and alerts ( for example a couple of cheap wyze cameras covering the front door and driveway )

easy to do, no additional security worries, get good quality ID images as needed.

 

[John Williamson]

Hi all
Well my order from Andy arrived, 2024 EmpireTech Thanksgiving Day Sales& Black Friday &Christmas Sales- Winter Sales, and I’m now at a loss as to what to do next. I’m relatively confident with regards the physical installation. However, I’ve just been reading about network security, partly read through the 81 page ‘VPN Primer for noobs’ thread, and I’ve quite literally lost the will to live. I daren’t connect / power anything up having read that. I didn’t really understand any of it. No idea what port forwarding is etc. I suspect I’ve made a mistake, and should possibly have opted for a lesser quality ‘off the shelf’ system for your average consumer. I don’t have a VPN, am purely Mac / iOS based, and use Apple’s iCloud Private Relay for browsing, which I’m guessing isn’t the same thing. I have an old router from my ISP (Virgin Media in the UK). I’ve also read the NVR / cams should never be connected to the internet. I was hoping to be able to remotely access the system / cams, which I assume can only be done via the internet? The learning curve is steep, and with everything else going on in my life currently (all stress related), I don’t think this is the route for me :-/

Only 5 days total to the UK? That's great service. I was going to order a couple of these cameras myself but have been put off by the thought of how long I'd be waiting. I'm an installer and use Hikvision but wanting to try Dahua for comparison. Although I can get Dahua from my trade suppliers, the models that tend to be recommended on this forum are not available in the UK.