Choose PTZ camera for weather station

[Robertomcat]

Hello, good afternoon!

I open a specific post to ask about choosing a PTZ camera to incorporate it to a mast that will be monitoring the weather. The amount of money I could spend is between 1000 € or 1200 € (although I could make a little more effort).

The camera, as I said, has to be on a mast, so facial recognition and tracking of people and vehicles is not important, what I do value is that it is 8 Mpx and that it has the highest zoom possible. And I understand that the manufacturer will incorporate in its software the automatic sending of an image every x minutes to an FTP server (Hikvision does incorporate it).

When I incorporated the weather station, I put the Reolink PTZ camera but the quality of the images at night were quite bad, as there were many reflections of lights on the glass, and the IR lighting reflected a round halo in the centre of the image, and in the end I had to return it. At the moment I have a Hikvision DS-2CD2087G2-L, but once I have the PTZ I will be able to focus it almost completely on the sky and avoid artificial light and leave a very low exposure time to capture the maximum star map.

I put a picture of where the camera could be placed, but having the weather station mast, the most feasible is that it is under it and there is no need to incorporate a new mast. The importance of the zoom is for the extensive views of the mountains in the background, as they are very important here, and I would like to reach as much as possible. Thank you very much.

 

[wittaj]

The answer hasn't changed in a couple of days since you asked it in the other thread and my response there LOL

Face Detection Snapshot with SD8C845FG-HNF

Here is a sample of Dahua's ColorVu equivalent as a skycam: https://ipcamtalk.com/threads/empiretech-ipc-color4k-x-is-an-amazing-weather-cam.60159/ So if you are using it more for scenery or skycam type activities and not to try to catch perps, that opens a lot of opportunities. This $2,200...

ipcamtalk.com

If you chase MP you will be disappointed, just like you were with the Reolink.

8MP needs to be on the 1/1.2" sensor. That is the sensor that is on the Hikvision you are using right now, which is why it is so good.

Reflections of lights on the glass, and the IR lighting reflected a round halo in the centre of the image is a common issue if the camera field of view is such that this is what it sees.

So you need to either pay for the 8MP on the 1/1.2" sensor or go with the 2MP PTZ I mentioned that can look straight up and is made for sky watching.

Selecting a camera on the proper MP/sensor ratio is much more important than MP.

If you buy an 8MP on the 1/2.8" sensor, you are needing 4 times the light of a 2MP, plus you are using a sensor that was designed for 1080P and not 8MP. A 2MP on the proper MP/sensor ratio will beat an 8MP on the wrong sensor ALL NIGHT LONG...

If you get an 8MP on anything other than the 1/1.2" sensor, you will suffer the same poor quality as you had with the Reolink....

See this chart for the proper sensor size based on MP. If you get a camera that is anything other than in the green, you will be disappointed...

 

[Robertomcat]

@wittaj No, things haven't changed since the last conversation in the other post

I have opened this new one, because as you can see, my choices in terms of camera and features are not entirely correct, so there is always someone who understands and can correct me when it comes to choosing the best component for the place where I am going to incorporate it.

The 360° camera you recommended doesn't convince me because of its price/features, as a 1080 P camera for such a large field of view is too little.

The reason for opening a new post is because you know much more about the market than I do, and I don't know the beds that may exist and the different configurations, because I'm not going to use many of the technologies that PTZ cameras have and I was just wondering if there was a camera that would be better adapted to my needs.

Well, if this box you have put down here is the bible when it comes to choosing the camera (for my circumstances), I'll have to stick to what it says. It's just that by searching the forum, there are a lot of people who have PTZ cameras built in, in case any of them see this post and can give me some feedback.

 

[wittaj]

Unfortunately, a camera manufacturer is not going to make an 8MP on the 1/1.2" sensor and not put in the AI and other features you don't need.

You need to decide do you want a quality weather cam that has the true resolution you want and ability to zoom in to distant things or do you want to go with cheap like most of the weathercams out on the internet. Along with that is do you care about night performance, which based on the other thread I think you do.

If you didn't care about night time quality, sure you can get away with a higher MP on a less than ideal sensor size. In the middle of the day with bright sun, an 8MP on the 1/2.8" sensor will look better than a 2MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor. At night it is the opposite.

I will take my 2MP on the proper MP/sensor ratio over an 8MP on the same size sensor as the 2MP ALL NIGHT LONG.

Here is a list of the cheap weather cams that are labeled "best weather camera" and as you will see they don't include the cameras we mention here. Not sure which Reolink you had, but a reolink made these lists. None of these cameras would be on ideal MP/sensor ratios and most are fixed cams:

Best Cameras for Weather station in 2023 - The Weather Makers

Don't let a thief to stole your weather station. Pick the best outdoor weather camera from our list and monitor your weather station 24/7.

www.weathermakerz.com

5 Best Cameras For Weather Stations In 2023 - JasonBox - Your Weather Guide

Let's face it, we are surrounded by technology in this day and age. And the addiction of clicking photos plays a huge role in that. While most people like to

jasonbox.net

Here is a real world example of two pictures taken at the same time from the 49225 PTZ (2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor) (basically a different form factor of the 2MP I linked to you) and the 49425 PTZ (4MP on the 1/2.8" sensor). Unfortunately I chased MP first and got a 4MP camera on a sensor designed for 2MP. So now I have both LOL

The 49225 is a 2MP PTZ on the 1/2.8" sensor. It deems it has enough light at a 1/60 shutter so it stays in color:

Here is the 49425, which is the same camera as the 49225 except is a 4MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor as the 49225.

Here is the first big issue you see with a double the resolution on the same size sensor - It deems that it does not have enough light at a 1/60 shutter so it goes to B/W with Infrared. Imagine how much worse 8MP on the same size sensor would be. Plus in addition to the infrared from the camera, it is also getting external infrared from an IR blaster:

I think most agree that the 2MP looks better than the 4MP.

So it comes down to do you want day and night performance that comes at a cost, or do you just want a weather cam that most will still appreciate the wonderful mountain view you have even from a cheaper cam.

 

[Robertomcat]

@wittaj Very enlightening with your answers. I will now check the links. Thank you.

Daytime images are more important to me than nighttime images, although nighttime images if you can capture the night sky would also be interesting.

As you mentioned above, the best camera with a very good zoom and MP/sensor ratio would be the SD8C845FG-HNF model. Then I have also found another model, the SD5A425XA-HNR which although with much less zoom, would also be interesting. The price of this last model is not known, I haven't investigated it yet. The price of the first model is over 2000 €, which is tremendous.

I could save up to buy the SD8C845FG-HNF model and then it would be the ideal combo. I still think that the 2 Mpx cameras for the field of view they have to have, the resolution both day and night is going to be very low, the image will be very pixelated.

As you may well know, I am still learning everything you are telling me at the moment. When I bought the Hikvision cameras I had no idea about the MP/sensor ratio, for everything I thank you.

Now I can't get the SD8C845FG-HNF model out of my mind

 

[wittaj]

Yeah, you stumbled onto a great camera with the Hikvision 8MP on the 1/1.2" sensor, so anything else will look poor compared to that LOL.

The SD5A425XA-HNR is a great PTZ on the proper MP/sensor ratio. It is 4MP on the 1/1.8" sensor and will be a big improvement over the 2MP.

The SD5A425XA-HNR is the best sub $1,000USD PTZ out there.

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804785397234.html?spm=a2g0o.store_pc_allProduct.8148356.6.3cc87a84TnUp3V&pdp_npi=2%40dis%21USD%21US%20%24806.45%21US%20%24766.13%21%21%21%21%21%40210321c316786428891315458e80ac%2112000031200468899%21sh&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa&_randl_shipto=US

And yeah, that SD8C845FG-HNF is a great camera and hard not to want that one LOL.

Buy your next camera from @EMPIRETECANDY here during his sale and be entered into a drawing to win that SD8C845FG-HNF

2023 EmpireTech Spring Sales

Hey Guys After the 2022 thanksgiving day and the black Friday sales, we are very pleased to offer the sales. Cameras for security and fun bring us together here, make the ipcamtalk community more and more popular.Though lots of guys not use our cams, but we have the same hobby IP CAMERA. :D...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[Robertomcat]

The SD5A425XA-HNR is the best sub $1,000USD PTZ out there.

Yes, that might be the best option within a contained amount of money.

And yeah, that SD8C845FG-HNF is a great camera and hard not to want that one LOL.

And this is the usual problem, money. But I am one of those who think that once you spend the money and invest it well, you will always be happy (unless another sweeping technology comes along, of course).

Buy your next camera from @EMPIRETECANDY here during his sale and be entered into a drawing to win that SD8C845FG-HNF

Well, a week ago I bought another Hikvision 4 Mpx camera to incorporate it in the garage door, but I didn't know about this forum. If I understand correctly, if I don't buy a camera first, I am not eligible for the tickets, right? Are there any other conditions or anything I need to know?

 

[wittaj]

If you are a previous customer of Andy, you can buy up to two tickets for the lottery at $5USD each.

Whether you bought a camera in the past or not from Andy, if you purchase a camera from him during the sale and email or DM him the order (if you didn't order from him direct) then you get one ticket for the lottery, unless you buy 4 or more cameras then you get two tickets.

Yep many of us have boxes full of cheaper cameras where we thought "oh this will work" and it doesn't. As someone here says, buy once, cry once. Buy the right one to begin with and be done with it.

 

[wittaj]

So that we quit muddying up other threads LOL, I am placing another example here for you to consider:

Almost any camera can do well in the daytime with enough light, even cameras that are 8MP put on a sensor designed for 2MP. But keep in mind that usually the processor and other stuff are still designed around 2MP, so the camera struggles trying to keep up with 8MP worth of data.

So buying an 8MP camera on the same sensor as the 4MP processor means that the processor is potentially working twice as hard for the 8MP camera. The camera you are looking at was designed for 4MP, so when they pop an 8MP lens on it, the processor is still the same and has to work harder. In some situations that is problematic.

Here is another real world example with a deer. Even with a floodlight, there simply wasn't enough light to make the 4MP on the sensor designed for 2MP to go into color.

And a 4MP on the proper 1/1.8" sensor camera (different deer LOL) that the camera was able to go to color based on the larger sensor:

Which do you think is the better image? The same thing applies whether it is a 4MP versus 8MP on the sensor sized for 4MP.

 

[Robertomcat]

@wittaj In the end it will convince me, and I will have to buy the SD5A245GB-HNR model which has 45x which is another feature I was looking for.

I think in the end it will be the balance between having good quality day, night and a good zoom. I think we will agree on this choice.

 

[Robertomcat]

Almost any camera can do well in the daytime with enough light, even cameras that are 8MP put on a sensor designed for 2MP. But keep in mind that usually the processor and other stuff are still designed around 2MP, so the camera struggles trying to keep up with 8MP worth of data.

In the end I will have to go back to the roots, which many of you, and especially you, pointed out to me. So I will also have to add to the list this model that you have already indicated PTZ19245U-IRB-N(-B).

 

[Robertomcat]

@JDreaming (I quote you here in this original thread I created for the choice of weather camera)

Searching the Dahua website, I have also found this PTZ85260-HNF-PA camera model which could serve me much better than a conventional PTZ, as this camera has a Tilt of -45° and I could observe the night sky much better. I don't know what the price might be, but it is not the laser one, which I have seen on the forum that Andy I bet is worth 3200 $, I think it is worth considerably less.

Now I'm already convinced to choose a 2 Mpx camera, and this camera could also be a good candidate for its hardware specs, as it has a 1/1.8" CMOS sensor.

What I don't quite understand is the "minimum illumination" specifications for example in the PTZ85260-HNF-PA and SD8C845FG-HNF camera models. In the case of the SD8C845FG-HNF model it indicates that it can collect much more light than the PTZ85260-HNF-PA model. But the PTZ85260-HNF-PA model has 2 Mpx and a 1/1.8 sensor which should actually collect more in the dark than the SD8C845FG-HNF model.

I don't know if I'm mixing things up, or if I'm just making a mess that doesn't make sense.

The interesting thing would be to be able to see the maximum visible light emitted by the stars, because if I have to choose a 2 Mpx camera, that would be the most suitable.

 

[Robertomcat]

I would like the camera to achieve this performance at night, when looking at the star map. In the case of this picture, if the light from the houses were not there, you would get much more detail in the sky.

SD8C845FG-HNF 8MP 45x 1/1.2'' CMOS Dual Light Fusion Electronic Defog Network PTZ Camera

Was thinking about this new PTZ for covering front street. IR range is limited around 250 meters but I think I’m good. Street is max 300 feet distance. What I find odd is the white light illuminator. Wouldnt it shine down like a spotlight ? Not sure I would like that but maybe. Maybe there...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[wittaj]

It is me again LOL.

Most of us don't pay attention to the minimum illumination specs....why....because those are under ideal situations with so many factors not known.

Once upon a time manufacturers would at least say at what shutter speed that rating was based on. Most would say a 1/3 shutter. That is way to slow for anything.

But now they don't even provide that, so in most cases it is a wide open iris, slowest shutter the camera allows, and gain and brightness cranked to 100 so that they can get the lowest illumination number possible.

But nobody would run the camera in that configuration.

I would suspect the PTZ85260-HNF-PA came out first and might be when they were a little more honest about the settings.

But yes 2MP on the 1/1.8" sensor will let more light in. There are some video comparisions on here somewhere showing 2MP on 1/1.8" sensor and it was much brighter than 4MP on the same sensor.

 

[Robertomcat]

It is me again LOL.

Relax, make yourself at home

I would suspect the PTZ85260-HNF-PA came out first and might be when they were a little more honest about the settings.

I don't understand what you mean when you say they were more honest in the configuration.
I've already asked Andy the price of several cameras, and I feel like I'm bothering him with so many questions. I would like to be able to try all the cameras, and decide which one is the best.

 

[wittaj]

"More honest in their configuration" meaning they used a configuration that most wouldn't run it any slower.

Some of the older cameras would give these specs so you knew how the camera was setup to come up with the minimum illumination.

0.002Lux/F1.5 ( Color,1/3s,30IRE)
0.020Lux/F1.5 ( Color,1/30s,30IRE)
0Lux/F1.5 (IR on)

So of course, the faster the shutter, the more light that is needed.

But as more competition came out, manufacturers started playing games and tweaking the settings for getting the lowest lux possible, but that came at a cost of a configuration nobody would use. So they wouldn't say how the camera was configured to capture that minimum illumination rating.

They play these marketing games to make it look like the camera is better than it is for someone that is just chasing minimum illumination numbers. Kind of like how we rarely get the miles per gallon a car is rated for.

A 1/3s shutter - really - that would be a motion ghost blur. Nobody would run the camera at that slow of a shutter.

The moon would like like a white sun - it would just be a big white circle in the air.

Real world example:

PTZ running auto shutter that slows down to let as much light in as possible. Yes that is the moon, not the sun LOL



Same PTZ just a few seconds later running a 1/2,000 shutter:



And since I know you will ask, this is the 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor PTZ....mind blown LOL

 

[Robertomcat]

PTZ running auto shutter that slows down to let as much light in as possible. Yes that is the moon, not the sun LOL

It's pretty amazing, no one would say that that first picture is the moon.

And since I know you will ask, this is the 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor PTZ....mind blown LOL

And this second picture is really good for a 2 Mpx camera with the 1/2.8 sensor. I understand that the 1/1.8 sensor would be even better. Specifically on which camera model are these pictures taken?

A 1/3s shutter - really - that would be a motion ghost blur. Nobody would run the camera at that slow of a shutter.

This setting can be used at night if you want to get a good capture of the starry sky, as the movement of the earth is slow in relation to the 1/3s exposure time. But the surrounding light conditions would have to be completely low.

 

[wittaj]

And that is why you cannot trust the minimum illumination specs LOL.

That was my trusty 49225 PTZ

For the wide angle view you can probably get by with auto shutter as a sky cam, but as you zoom in you will need a faster shutter. I would probably still run like a 1/30 shutter though even at wide angle.

 

[Robertomcat]

For the wide angle view you can probably get by with auto shutter as a sky cam, but as you zoom in you will need a faster shutter. I would probably still run like a 1/30 shutter though even at wide angle.

It's that the choice is quite difficult, because the cameras we are talking about are not €50 cameras, which in case you don't like it you can change it. But we are talking about cameras of more than 1500 $. This PTZ85260-HNF-PA camera with its -45° tilt and with the specifications I have put in previous messages is also a good candidate. I don't know what to do.

 

[wittaj]

I hear ya, the last thing you want is buyers remorse LOL. Like I did chasing MP and buying the 49425 first and then going and buying the 49225 within a few months LOL.

Sometimes we need to learn the hard way LOL. We can tell you not chase MP and blah blah blah, but sometimes we have to experience it ourselves.

If it were me I would look at putting together the list of cameras on the proper MP/sensor ratio or better (like in that case of the 2MP on the 1/1.8" sensor) and then from that pick the one that will give you the best range of motion for what you are trying to accomplish.