Cloud-based solution without hardware lock-in

[Winterminute]

I've decided I want the perks of cloud based solution. I'm running two IP cams with blue Iris on my only desktop machine but it really bogs down that machine. Rather than build a new machine just for blue iris, I'd like to explore cloud options. I'm looking at Nest and Arlo Pro. I don't mind pricing, it's a bit steep but seems to have real intelligence behind it. My only concern is I spend a bunch of money on cams and then down the road I decide I want to explore other options which might include giving in and building my own.

So ... does anyone have any recommendations for a cloud-based solution that works with any IP cam (Onvif?) that offers similar features as NEST or Arlo?

 

[fenderman]

I've decided I want the perks of cloud based solution. I'm running two IP cams with blue Iris on my only desktop machine but it really bogs down that machine. Rather than build a new machine just for blue iris, I'd like to explore cloud options. I'm looking at Nest and Arlo Pro. I don't mind pricing, it's a bit steep but seems to have real intelligence behind it. My only concern is I spend a bunch of money on cams and then down the road I decide I want to explore other options which might include giving in and building my own.

So ... does anyone have any recommendations for a cloud-based solution that works with any IP cam (Onvif?) that offers similar features as NEST or Arlo?

1- There are no perks to cloud based recording..only downsides.
2- You dont need to build any machine...you can purchase a second or third generation i3/i5 machine for 100-150 bux that will run your cams with eases....
3- nest and arlo are horrific- search for my threads that discuss the negatives
4- all these cloud based cameras have inferior image quality to proper ip cams available for less.
5- netgear flexpower is the only cloud camera that I know of that allows onvif, would be a terrible choice to buy it...its for suckers.

 

[mat200]

I've decided I want the perks of cloud based solution. I'm running two IP cams with blue Iris on my only desktop machine but it really bogs down that machine. Rather than build a new machine just for blue iris, I'd like to explore cloud options. I'm looking at Nest and Arlo Pro. I don't mind pricing, it's a bit steep but seems to have real intelligence behind it. My only concern is I spend a bunch of money on cams and then down the road I decide I want to explore other options which might include giving in and building my own.

So ... does anyone have any recommendations for a cloud-based solution that works with any IP cam (Onvif?) that offers similar features as NEST or Arlo?

Welcome Winterminute,

Fenderman listed numerous good point, Cloud cameras are just not reliable - and their associated cloud service have had significant recent outages in just the last weeks and months, thus I wanted to share my following notes with you:


Security Camera System Minimal Viable Product requirements:

• 1) It must be Reliable.
• 2) It must be able to capture good enough images to potentially ID suspects.
• 3) It must be useful for evidence. [ thus date and time stamps are critical ]

What does this mean in practical terms?
Wired systems with local storage will be the most reliable. While some maybe able to get wifi cameras to work well enough it requires a significant investment in building and maintaining a quality wifi network, which most people are unwilling to learn and spend the resources to do. Wifi is also subject to interference ( common ) and even possible jamming ( less common ).
Quality cameras are required. 1080p+ The best way to determine if a camera is good is to test it and compare it to others. Megapixels is only one factor to look at, and does not in itself determine the quality of the image. That said, your search should avoid 720p and poorer spec'ed cameras, they tend to be the cheaper cameras and provide poorer results. Test both day time and night time.
Few consumer marketed cameras have date and time stamps. This is critical if you plan to use your video images for evidence.
[ good wired camera = In general either PoE ( Power over Ethernet ) using cat5e/cat6 cable for digital, OR coax wire with power wires and BNC connectors for analog based systems. ]

..


Arlo / Arlo Pro - why they make poor security cameras: ( a lot of this also applies to the Ring cameras )
There are a number of reasons, which apply to many consumer wire free products.
The Arlo / Arlo Pro system fail in 2 of the 3 minimal viable product categories for security cameras, and in the 3rd one does a poor job ( ID distance very short, night image poor ).
1) Poor resolution and wide FOV make for short ID distances
2) Poor reliability, cameras will disconnect from base station, base station needs periodic reboots, cloud service auth failures
3) Lag with cloud service
4) Issues with reliability of motion detection
5) Issues to lag before recording
6) Poor night vision
7) No embedded time stamp - thus videos are poor for evidence. ( Arlo, Ring, and Nest fail here )
8) Difficult to manage multiple clips for downloading from the cloud service.
9) Lag to access live view
10) Cameras do not have local storage - thus when disconnected to the base station they are unable to record events.

Note: Arlo base station has USB ports which were intended for future options, however reportedly Netgear did not enable local attached storage until the Arlo Pro base station came out. Arlo Pro 2 improves on the Arlo / Arlo Pro with 1080p resolution, which helps. However the system still suffers from numerous faults similar to it's prior versions, and only when the cameras are wired do you see significant functional improvements. At which point you may want to just install a PoE system.

 

[mat200]

..
5- netgear flexpower is the only cloud camera that I know of that allows onvif, would be a terrible choice to buy it...its for suckers.

Wow, 720p 130 deg FOV... that gives me .. oh 5.6 feet to 100 ppf ID distance... and they want to sell that to governments running safe houses!!

 

[Winterminute]

didn't mean to start a thread and then vanish. I was drawn to cloud-based because (a) easier administration, (b) not having to worry about local resource usage (CPU/Disk) although that would be mitigated by second machine, (c) but also interested to see how the new AI features (facial recognition, person vs animal). I guess that's part of the problem, BlueIris feels like they're getting left behind. I look at all the new stuff and for the most part they are either refining their existing features or adding more knobs/levers. As a home users, I want less knobs and levers, I want "the defaults just do what I want". But I also don't want to sacrifice the basics, so if video quality for Nest/Arlo isn't good than that's bad too.

Has anyone played solutions like CamCloud or CameraFTP? Maybe that's a good hybrid approach where i bring my existing IP camera still record locally AND to the cloud.

 

[fenderman]

didn't mean to start a thread and then vanish. I was drawn to cloud-based because (a) easier administration, (b) not having to worry about local resource usage (CPU/Disk) although that would be mitigated by second machine, (c) but also interested to see how the new AI features (facial recognition, person vs animal). I guess that's part of the problem, BlueIris feels like they're getting left behind. I look at all the new stuff and for the most part they are either refining their existing features or adding more knobs/levers. As a home users, I want less knobs and levers, I want "the defaults just do what I want". But I also don't want to sacrifice the basics, so if video quality for Nest/Arlo isn't good than that's bad too.

Has anyone played solutions like CamCloud or CameraFTP? Maybe that's a good hybrid approach where i bring my existing IP camera still record locally AND to the cloud.

none of the solutions you mentioned have facial recognition, person or animal...they are simply crappy insecure bandwidth hogging internet dependent storage sites that charge you a monthly fee....
Cloud is not easier to administer...
As far as resources you are paying someone to host your server, and making things worse for yourself.
Most of the AI is gimmicky and the better results can be accomplished with a PIR sensor..but if you are set on those types of things, look at sighthound...it has a lot less functionality but has AI....its 250
FYI-there is no "they" in blue iris..it is developed by a single person..there is no way he could implement that kind of AI without paying heavy licensing fees...the software would be much more expensive....Most blue iris users WANT all the new features he is adding, that is why we went with it in the first place...

 

[TH3FRB]

The OP hit my feelings exactly - "As a home users, I want less knobs and levers, I want "the defaults just do what I want". But I also don't want to sacrifice the basics, so if video quality for Nest/Arlo isn't good than that's bad too."

I have a couple Hikvision 3MP IP cameras that I have only toyed with running through Surveillance Station on my Synology NAS. I decided to check out the Ring spotlight cam because I really wanted something simple that I don't have to tinker with constantly. Honestly, none of the available cloud based options hit all of my requirements but the wired version of the Ring Spotlight is close - simple hardware and app on my phone and tablet for configuration, notifications, and viewing stored clips and live feed. I don't need to deal with batteries and the places I want to mount them I can get 120V to easy enough to plug them in. All I'm trying to do is keep a basic eye out around the perimeter of my property. I'm not guarding Fort Knox - so simple is the appeal and "it just works" is the appeal.
Still, I'm on the verge of picking up a refurbished computer to give BI a try with my HikVision cams. BI has an android app for viewing live feeds and stored clips? It does push notifications for user specified events?

 

[fenderman]

The OP hit my feelings exactly - "As a home users, I want less knobs and levers, I want "the defaults just do what I want". But I also don't want to sacrifice the basics, so if video quality for Nest/Arlo isn't good than that's bad too."

I have a couple Hikvision 3MP IP cameras that I have only toyed with running through Surveillance Station on my Synology NAS. I decided to check out the Ring spotlight cam because I really wanted something simple that I don't have to tinker with constantly. Honestly, none of the available cloud based options hit all of my requirements but the wired version of the Ring Spotlight is close - simple hardware and app on my phone and tablet for configuration, notifications, and viewing stored clips and live feed. I don't need to deal with batteries and the places I want to mount them I can get 120V to easy enough to plug them in. All I'm trying to do is keep a basic eye out around the perimeter of my property. I'm not guarding Fort Knox - so simple is the appeal and "it just works" is the appeal.
Still, I'm on the verge of picking up a refurbished computer to give BI a try with my HikVision cams. BI has an android app for viewing live feeds and stored clips? It does push notifications for user specified events?

ring is useless garbage...provides zero advantages and poor image...

 

[TH3FRB]

ring is useless garbage...provides zero advantages and poor image...

I get your perspective, especially considering your bias as an advanced user. So if all I want to do is keep an eye on my side carport and front door with motion detection captures, and broad view of my incoming driveway and front parking with continuous 24/7 recording, I should be able to set up a simple IP cam system running BI that requires little to no tinkering. It will just work, and has a user friendly android app? That's all I really want. I think I'd be pretty satisfied with a 2MP Arlo Pro 2 hardwired system with decent night vision. I realize that doesn't exist but that's essentially the functionality I want. Sounds like the OP is thinking along the same lines.

 

[fenderman]

I get your perspective, especially considering your bias as an advanced user. So if all I want to do is keep an eye on my side carport and front door with motion detection captures, and broad view of my incoming driveway and front parking with continuous 24/7 recording, I should be able to set up a simple IP cam system running BI that requires little to no tinkering. It will just work, and has a user friendly android app? That's all I really want. I think I'd be pretty satisfied with a 2MP Arlo Pro 2 hardwired system with decent night vision. I realize that doesn't exist but that's essentially the functionality I want. Sounds like the OP is thinking along the same lines.

No, op is running a blue iris system...he will be sorry when he realizes what ring/alro miss in both quality and video capture...let alone functionality...only a sucker would pay them a monthly fee....there is no such thing as arlo with decent night vision...all 2mp is not the same...if you are only going to use a few cams, consider digital watchdog vms, its 70 per camera with a free cloud viewing service (no need for vpn, etc)...for the same long term cost as these silly ring/arlo, nest, you can HIRE a pro to install it for you, wired, and reliable...he will do all the tinkering since its too difficult for ya.

 

[mat200]

.. It will just work, and has a user friendly android app? That's all I really want. I think I'd be pretty satisfied with a 2MP Arlo Pro 2 hardwired system with decent night vision. I realize that doesn't exist but that's essentially the functionality I want. Sounds like the OP is thinking along the same lines.

Hi TH3FRB,

Unfortunately there really is no product in this space which has the following attributes:
1) Easy to setup w/o cabling work
2) Reliable
3) Just works well
4) Quality image

The cloud service products unfortunately require a successful round trip to the cloud service.

Arlo servers had a major failure the day after Black Friday when everyone wanted to get their new cameras hooked up... definitely not a "It just works" product and service.

Same thing with Ring Doorbells during Halloween - numerous Ring users reported that their chimes where not activating when trick-or-treaters were attempting to ring their doorbells - as the Ring service suffered a major outage.

This is the major flaw with all of these cloud service products - when internet connectivity is out, or when their service fails, you can not use the product.

That is a very bad thing for a security product.

The Arlo Pro 2 - if you wire it for power you can have the option to record 24/7 - and iirc that is another special tier paid for service.

If you're already going to the trouble to wire power to the camera, and finding ways to route that, - well with all that work, why not just go PoE and get a solid reliable setup?

For the high cost of the Arlo Pro 2 camera you can get a much better Dahua OEM varifocal starlight camera - which can accept a microSD card and record 24x7 for you.

 

[TH3FRB]

Unfortunately there really is no product in this space which has the following attributes:
1) Easy to setup w/o cabling work
2) Reliable
3) Just works well
4) Quality image

The cloud service products unfortunately require a successful round trip to the cloud service.

...when internet connectivity is out, or when their service fails, you can not use the product.

The Arlo Pro 2 - if you wire it for power you can have the option to record 24/7 - and iirc that is another special tier paid for service.

If you're already going to the trouble to wire power to the camera, and finding ways to route that, - well with all that work, why not just go PoE and get a solid reliable setup?

For the high cost of the Arlo Pro 2 camera you can get a much better Dahua OEM varifocal starlight camera - which can accept a microSD card and record 24x7 for you.

Thanks for the reply - now we're starting to get somewhere.

I have no issue with running POE to my locations or doing the physical work. I'm talking about user friendly setup without having to spend hours sifting through online forums to trouble shoot various driver issues, tinker with frame rates, data rates, etc. I can accept that internet service drops from time to time. A few cameras around my house isn't a life or death situation. I've made it 40+ years without any cameras - just looking to keep an eye on things a bit. Some people want to root their new phone, install custom ROMs and launchers, and customize it to death. Others just want to power it up and have all the major functions work with minimal aggravation. That's the appeal of Ring, Arlo, etc. It took me all of 10min to unbox, setup, and have a Ring Spotlight fully functioning, sending me motion alerts and logging video clips. A couple quick swipes on my phone and I'm looking at the live view - simple. I'm not saying I'm satisfied with it but I'm evaluating. Sure, it cost me $150 and will be another $30/year if I want the cloud service, but I'm willing to pay something for ease and simplicity. I don't mind investing a bit of time but this isn't something I want to become a time suck or new hobby.

The Arlo Pro 2 is interesting in that I like the additional features when hard wired, which I don't mind doing, but I've read too many complaints about the night vision being worse than the previous version so I can't justify the price for something with an obvious issue not knowing if it's hardware or software that can be fixed.

Still, since I already have a couple of HikVision IP cams and a POE switch I'm going to pick up a refurb OptiPlex i5-4590S after Xmas and play around with BI. If I can get things running without too much frustration I'll check out some better cameras. What model of Dahua starlight would I be looking for?

 

[fenderman]

Thanks for the reply - now we're starting to get somewhere.

I have no issue with running POE to my locations or doing the physical work. I'm talking about user friendly setup without having to spend hours sifting through online forums to trouble shoot various driver issues, tinker with frame rates, data rates, etc. I can accept that internet service drops from time to time. A few cameras around my house isn't a life or death situation. I've made it 40+ years without any cameras - just looking to keep an eye on things a bit. Some people want to root their new phone, install custom ROMs and launchers, and customize it to death. Others just want to power it up and have all the major functions work with minimal aggravation. That's the appeal of Ring, Arlo, etc. It took me all of 10min to unbox, setup, and have a Ring Spotlight fully functioning, sending me motion alerts and logging video clips. A couple quick swipes on my phone and I'm looking at the live view - simple. I'm not saying I'm satisfied with it but I'm evaluating. Sure, it cost me $150 and will be another $30/year if I want the cloud service, but I'm willing to pay something for ease and simplicity. I don't mind investing a bit of time but this isn't something I want to become a time suck or new hobby.

The Arlo Pro 2 is interesting in that I like the additional features when hard wired, which I don't mind doing, but I've read too many complaints about the night vision being worse than the previous version so I can't justify the price for something with an obvious issue not knowing if it's hardware or software that can be fixed.

Still, since I already have a couple of HikVision IP cams and a POE switch I'm going to pick up a refurb OptiPlex i5-4590S after Xmas and play around with BI. If I can get things running without too much frustration I'll check out some better cameras. What model of Dahua starlight would I be looking for?

if you want a vms with some AI features and few options look at sighthound its 250...
every single option you mentioned has crappy image quality as well terrible motion detection since they are triggered by pir only so you miss lots of very useful and valuable recording.
You need to understand that this is a user forum that is where people go post their issues..that doesnt mean every single person has an issue...go to a ring forum or their facebook page and see how many folks have issues with their crap. Any way you slice it or dice it, ring/arlo and the like are for complete suckers...if you are too lazy to lean a vms yourself, PAY someone to do it for you and it will be BETTER and CHEAPER...

 

[xtropodx]

The OP hit my feelings exactly - "As a home users, I want less knobs and levers, I want "the defaults just do what I want". But I also don't want to sacrifice the basics, so if video quality for Nest/Arlo isn't good than that's bad too."

Same boat here. Despite posting here awhile back about getting some cameras, still haven't gone ahead & bit the bullet. Simply because of required hardware/software set up some of the systems need, lack of support/information, but mostly reservations & lack of confidence on making right decision on my part because of this. For example, I contacted Hikvision & multiple suppliers & though most got back in touch with me not one of them could/would answer a simple question, from a prospective buyer. The Arlo Pro 2 looks quite appealing & even has a 100dB alarm you can activate, including cloud storage. So what I see in Arlo atm is simplicity with functionality.

What I don't understand, google 'best security camera' etc & most brands listed on this forum don't even show up or get a mention on 3rd party websites that review cameras, least not without some hard digging. And while I realize this will be subjective, still. All this from someone completely brand new to all this & not wanting to sacrifice what I want, or be upto scratch, for what will be hundreds of dollars+. I thought joining this website would alleviate this somewhat, but still I read & read & read & still undecided .