Comparing real pro cameras to home grade. More than resolution specs.

[fastline12]

I am redoing a large commercial facility cam system. Currently 16 cams and will probably expand that. I have an opportunity to get professional Sony VM602R cams for next to nothing. But I am trying to compare and understand the true differences other than resolution, because these are only 720p cams. We really need advanced features like good long range motion detect, quality optics, good IR light output, IO outputs, microphone input, etc.

Basically if we skipped down to the store to pickup 20 of the newer gen Sonys like this, that bill would be huge! On a few of these cams, we have to cover a 2 acre lot from only one side. Part of me sees this as the used Sonys are already a massive upgrade, we can run them, see how we like, make adjustments as needed. Part of me also doesn't want to spend the time to install lower rez cams than today spec. Just trying to make good decisions here.

 

[looktall]

720p?
Why would you bother?

 

[Ri22o]

How much is your security worth to you? Will saving money up front cost you more money down the road when your footage is useless and you can't recover your loss?

Buy once, cry once.

 

[wittaj]

What makes you think those cameras are real pro cameras?

Because they say pro on them and are expensive?

Wow a 1/3" sensor. That is tiny. I wouldn't be paying anything for that.

Wow look how good they would be in the dark (being sarcastic, those number suck in 2024):

Minimum Illumination (50 IRE)
Color: 0.05 lx (F1.2, View-DR Off, VE Off, AGC On, 1/30 s, 30 fps)
B/W: 0 lx (IR LED On)

Minimum Illumination (30 IRE)
Color: 0.03 lx (F1.2, View-DR Off, VE Off, AGC On, 1/30 s, 30 fps)
B/W: 0 lx (IR LED On)


Plus you say you need good long range - these are not going to cut it.

You need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A wide angle 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who.

One camera cannot be the be all, see all. Each one is selected for covering a specific area. Most of us here have different brands and types, from fixed cams, to varifocals, to PTZs, each one selected for it's primary purpose and to utilize the strength of that particular camera.

See this thread for the commonly recommended cameras (along with Amazon links) based on distance to IDENTIFY that represent the overall best value in terms of price and performance day and night.

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

And these cameras will meet your other needs.

 

[fastline12]

What makes you think those cameras are real pro cameras?

Because they say pro on them and are expensive?

Wow a 1/3" sensor. That is tiny. I wouldn't be paying anything for that.

Wow look how good they would be in the dark (being sarcastic, those number suck in 2024):

Minimum Illumination (50 IRE)
Color: 0.05 lx (F1.2, View-DR Off, VE Off, AGC On, 1/30 s, 30 fps)
B/W: 0 lx (IR LED On)

Minimum Illumination (30 IRE)
Color: 0.03 lx (F1.2, View-DR Off, VE Off, AGC On, 1/30 s, 30 fps)
B/W: 0 lx (IR LED On)


Plus you say you need good long range - these are not going to cut it.

You need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A wide angle 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who.

One camera cannot be the be all, see all. Each one is selected for covering a specific area. Most of us here have different brands and types, from fixed cams, to varifocals, to PTZs, each one selected for it's primary purpose and to utilize the strength of that particular camera.

See this thread for the commonly recommended cameras (along with Amazon links) based on distance to IDENTIFY that represent the overall best value in terms of price and performance day and night.

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

And these cameras will meet your other needs.

Thanks, and my apology for ignorance here. I'm new to this but trying to make good decisions for this facility. I firmly agree with the Sony's now that I have tested them out at my farm. Not only is the image not good enough, one appeared that the IR lights were probably bad because it was mostly snow at night. Another was trying to focus on it's own scratched up lens cover.

I am gaining traction with cams. I know I have some difficult asks in getting night performance up. We are looking at adding additional perimeter lighting to help the situation. I am learning a bit regarding sensors, pixel count, thus how bright an image can really get.

 

[steve1225]

Look at Dahua 5442 / 54IR series...
It's most popular camera here on this forum.
Very universal (lots of chassis, lens, zoom ranges, colors options), 4Mpx, have big 1/1.8" very bright sensor, with some street/outdoor lighting can have nice color image at night, works also with internal IR, built-in mics...
Ability to choose between zoom ranges (AS - fixed 2.8/3.6, ZE - zoom 1-3x, Z4E - zoom 3-9x) gives You ability to cover different usage scenarios (like fixed 2.8/3.6mm cams for wide 90-110 degree overview image, zoomed/varifocal ZE/Z4E gives ability to optically zoom at specified places - like gates/entrances/walk-ways/streets etc to have big very details faces / car plates..

It have very powerful AI abilities - IVS perimeter protection with human/car AI filtering and Video MetaData to capture/analyze/describe all visible human / faces / cars / plates..

Normally 5442 cam costs in Dahua distribution 400-600 USD..
Here on the forum we buy from one of Dahua OEM partners for fraction of this price...

WizMind S Series - Dahua International

WizMind S Series

www.dahuasecurity.com

Search: 7 results found for "54ir"

Building security systems for home and business offices. Protecting customers' personal safety and property security. All the security cameras and NVRs we sell are of great quality and at affordable prices.

empiretech01.com

Color image at night:



Human / faces / cars capture with analysis (did on Z4E optics with strong 3x-9x zoom range, data received and displayed by Dahua 5xxx-EI NVR):

 

[fastline12]

Look at Dahua 5442 / 54IR series...
It's most popular camera here on this forum.
Very universal (lots of chassis, lens, zoom ranges, colors options), 4Mpx, have big 1/1.8" very bright sensor, with some street/outdoor lighting can have nice color image at night, works also with internal IR, built-in mics...
Ability to choose between zoom ranges (AS - fixed 2.8/3.6, ZE - zoom 1-3x, Z4E - zoom 3-9x) gives You ability to cover different usage scenarios (like fixed 2.8/3.6mm cams for wide 90-110 degree overview image, zoomed/varifocal ZE/Z4E gives ability to optically zoom at specified places - like gates/entrances/walk-ways/streets etc to have big very details faces / car plates..

It have very powerful AI abilities - IVS perimeter protection with human/car AI filtering and Video MetaData to capture/analyze/describe all visible human / faces / cars / plates..

Normally 5442 cam costs in Dahua distribution 400-600 USD..
Here on the forum we buy from one of Dahua OEM partners for fraction of this price...

WizMind S Series - Dahua International

WizMind S Series

www.dahuasecurity.com

Search: 7 results found for "54ir"

Building security systems for home and business offices. Protecting customers' personal safety and property security. All the security cameras and NVRs we sell are of great quality and at affordable prices.

empiretech01.com

Color image at night:

View attachment 205428

Human / faces / cars capture with analysis (did on Z4E optics with strong 3x-9x zoom range, data received and displayed by Dahua 5xxx-EI NVR):

View attachment 205429

View attachment 205430

View attachment 205431

View attachment 205432

Really appreciate the help! Do I understand correctly that the 54IRs are Empire branded Dahuas? I do notice I don't see offerings for dual sensor cams? IDK why I like those wide array cams other than seems like we could reduce cam qty a bit, but I'm sure there is a down side. I will work to provide an aerial view of the facility but basically is 60k sf with about 6 different building, and a 2 acre lot next to it. The main concerns are the back of the place, where there are no roads but would be a hot zone for lowlifes.

My intended goals go beyond just "camera coverage" as they don't actually prevent crime. I need motion activated deterrents such as motion activated lights, sirens, etc. I think once any sort of 'active deterrents' are deployed, criminals will move on. We don't have "Philly level" crime here to speak of.

 

[wittaj]

Really appreciate the help! Do I understand correctly that the 54IRs are Empire branded Dahuas? I do notice I don't see offerings for dual sensor cams? IDK why I like those wide array cams other than seems like we could reduce cam qty a bit, but I'm sure there is a down side. I will work to provide an aerial view of the facility but basically is 60k sf with about 6 different building, and a 2 acre lot next to it. The main concerns are the back of the place, where there are no roads but would be a hot zone for lowlifes.

My intended goals go beyond just "camera coverage" as they don't actually prevent crime. I need motion activated deterrents such as motion activated lights, sirens, etc. I think once any sort of 'active deterrents' are deployed, criminals will move on. We don't have "Philly level" crime here to speak of.

All of that is answered in the thread I linked above (copied below):

Thread 'The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection'

Mar 28, 2022

At the urging of several folks here, I created a thread to show the importance of focal length and how focal length can be more important than megapixels (MP).

I mentioned some of this in the post regarding The Hookup’s latest video demonstrating different cameras, including one sold from a forum favorite here @EMPIRETECANDY , but this post will put it all in one place where we can point a NOOB to. The cameras I am highlighting were purchased from @EMPIRETECANDY

Almost every big box store, consumer grade cameras and all-in-one-box kits come with either 2.8mm or 3.6mm...

• wittaj
• Replies: 89
• Forum: Pics & Videos

• 
• 

You need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. In most situations we need more cameras than we think.

A wide angle 2.8mm dual sensor cam to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is.

A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who.

One camera cannot be the be all, see all. Each one is selected for covering a specific area. Most of us here have different brands and types, from fixed cams, to varifocals, to PTZs, each one selected for it's primary purpose and to utilize the strength of that particular camera.


Yes the EmpireTech cameras are Dahua OEM, basically Dahua without the logo.


Most here find that cameras and motion activated floodlights ends up causing problems with image exposure and are bad for surveillance cameras.. What happens is then the camera is momentarily blinded and you lose the ideal capture when the lights kick on and the camera adjusts from basically no light to a lot of light.

Motion activated lights are not a deterrent. There are enough videos here showing that perps do not flinch when a floodlight turns on. They avoid homes all lit up, so go with floodlights on all night.

Watch this video someone posted and how the floodlight comes on and they don't even flinch. But then the audio comes on and they don't know which way to run LOL.

https://ipcamtalk.com/attachments/whatsapp-video-2020-07-28-at-7-23-08-pm-mp4.73970/

Either keep the lights on all night or not at all to ensure the best chance of capture.

Here is usually what happens when a motion activated floodlight comes on - it just about completely blinds the camera right at the moment of optimal opportunity to get the picture. There are 3 deer in this picture and two of them are lost in the blinded white while the camera's exposure adjusts to the rapid change in available light:

Or this example that completely missed the perp:

The Typical picture of a Perp on Nextdoor-type Apps with Consumer Grade Cameras like Ring, Nest, Arlo, Canary, Wyze, etc.​

 

[Ri22o]

A couple issues with the 180 cams:

• No IR - You will need to provide visible light.
• Limited to 3.6mm - limited ability to ID, especially when installed further from the ground.
• Cannot adjust each sensor for the scene - If the lighting is not the same across the whole sweep of both cams, you can have issues dialing them in. I have some of these deployed as sky cams, I have struggled to get a good image because one may see more light pollution than the other. This creates a problem since they are both basically looking at different scenes, but use the same control.

To add on to @wittaj above. Cameras need a purpose and need to be installed and spec'd accordingly:

One camera cannot do it all. You cannot see everything and still see details. Getting good details does not allow you to see everything; it is a give and take.

This is why a good system will have cameras that complement each other. This is also why a PTZ is a complement to a good, already established system and should not be heavily relied on by itself.

When planning your system and layout start by focusing on choke points and set up fields of view to capture details and give the ability to ID. This means all this camera will be able to do/see is the very narrow scope of its job. You can then deploy a more general overview cam to give context to the details. This overview cam can support one or more of your choke point ID cams.

For instance, as an extreme example. I am deploying this camera. It's only job is to see people walking down the path behind my house. This is what I see 99% of the time when I look at the feed.


However, this is what I see when someone walks down the path, 95' feet away.


I then have these two cameras I can use to get a better idea/context of what they were doing and where they may have come from or gone to. The kill zone is between the green lines and the camera is on the fence at the bottom, center of the picture. You can see someone just entering the KZ and the 3.6mm focal length of this cam gives absolutely no details other than it might be a person. (The second image is from a 3.6mm 180 degree cam, for reference.)




This is the person in the above wide angle shot, and there is no way you would have been able to tell it was a male, in a red, flannel shirt, with sunglasses, and a receding hairline.


Below are a couple links to some of my threads which you might find helpful. I have learned a lot since joining and try to pay it forward when possible.

This is my on-going "build" thread.

Looking for advice on my install locations.

After posting my thread on where/whether to install the 4K-X I realized I may need to adjust the locations of some of my cameras and with Andy's sale coming up I wanted to get some opinions so I can buy any new hardware I may need. A little about where I live: My street is lit primarily by...

ipcamtalk.com

This is one I put together with images from my journey showing the differences between focal lengths, install heights, changing fields of view, etc.

"I want 2.8mm cameras everywhere to see everything..." - This is why you need specific FOVs with purposeful focal lengths.

I have gained a lot of knowledge since I signed up and wanted to share my experience and examples of improvements and changes for others who are coming from a "I want 2.8mm cameras everywhere to see everything" system mentality. My ongoing "build/looking for advice" thread can be found here...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[wittaj]

+1 above - excellent visuals showing how one camera cannot perform as the be all/see all.

The dual lens wide angles give you nice overviews, but that comes at the cost of IDENTIFY.

The tighter field of view obtained by larger focal lengths give you the IDENTIFY, but at the cost of overview.

So both are needed if one really wants to provide the best opportunity to give useful info to the police.

 

[steve1225]

Really appreciate the help! Do I understand correctly that the 54IRs are Empire branded Dahuas? I do notice I don't see offerings for dual sensor cams? IDK why I like those wide array cams other than seems like we could reduce cam qty a bit, but I'm sure there is a down side. I will work to provide an aerial view of the facility but basically is 60k sf with about 6 different building, and a 2 acre lot next to it. The main concerns are the back of the place, where there are no roads but would be a hot zone for lowlifes.

My intended goals go beyond just "camera coverage" as they don't actually prevent crime. I need motion activated deterrents such as motion activated lights, sirens, etc. I think once any sort of 'active deterrents' are deployed, criminals will move on. We don't have "Philly level" crime here to speak of.

yes, 54IR is Empire branded Dahua 5442...

Dahua have some dual-sensors cam - mostly 180 degree cams which splice 2 images into one... but there are Full Color / only white light cams (don't see IR).. and there is no optical zoom there (those cams are only overview)..

IPC-PDW5849-A180-E2-ASTE - Dahua International

IPC-PDW5849-A180-E2-ASTE

www.dahuasecurity.com

Search: 5 results found for "180"

Building security systems for home and business offices. Protecting customers' personal safety and property security. All the security cameras and NVRs we sell are of great quality and at affordable prices.

empiretech01.com

If we talk about alarm / siren / "police" lights, there is TIOC & TIOC-PRO (3xx9-AS-PV line) camera line, which are mostly created for house and SMB market:

WizSense Series - Dahua International

WizSense Series

www.dahuasecurity.com

EmpireTech IPC-Color4M-T 1/1.8" CMOS 4MP Smart Dual Light Active Deter

4-MP 1/1.8" CMOS | Built-in multi-core light | Max. IR distance is 30 m | Max. warm light distance is 30 m | Intelligent monitoring: Intrusion, tripwire | Supports max. 512 G Micro SD card | Built-in dual Mic | Support two-way talk | IP67 protection | Sound and light alarm (red and blue lights)...

empiretech01.com

Standalone TIOC have bad night performance (small sensor), but TIOC-PRO have bigger one (1/1.8")..
Those TIOC's cameras have lower AI capabilities in comparison to 5xxx line..
And there is no varifocal (with optical zoom) models.. Only static 2.8/3.6mm (wide 110 or 90 degrees horizontal)...

Alternatively You can connect any lights/siren/alarm/anti-deterrents device by small 5-12V relay to alarm-out connector on 5442/54IR camera or NVR...

if we talk about big areas to observe/monitor and minimizing count of cameras.. there are PTZ cams, which can find and auto track people (can rotate and optically zoom)... optical zoom 25x (2x-50x)..

Worse with 1/2.8" sensor: EmpireTech PTZ425DB-AT 1/2.8" 4MP 25x Starlight IR 5mm–125mm Vari-Foca
Better with 1/1.8" sensor: EmpireTech PTZ5A4M-25X 1/1.8" CMOS 4MP 25x Starlight IR 5.4mm–135mm Va

Biggest problem with PTZ is that when it zoom at someone, You miss overview image. So it can be someone else at different position which will be ignored by PTZ in that time.

There are new Panoramic + PTZ cams where you have 180 degree static overview image (from 2 static sensors) + moveable/zoomable PTZ from third sensor:

Worse 1/2.8": EmpireTech SDT4E425-8P-GB-APV1 8MP+4MP 25x Starlight TiOC Network Pano
Better 1/1.8": EmpireTech SDT8C842-8P-FA-APV-0280 2×1/1.8" CMOS 8MP 42x Starlight Dua

Those cams create 2 different channels streams (works as 2 cams, one overview 180 degree, second as PTZ).

 

[fastline12]

Outstanding info! Thank you tremendously! I'd like to share more details as I think it will help. The entire property is about 400x500ft, entire 6ft perimeter fence. Front acess is via 3 card access sliding gates. You must get out of a vehicle to swipe a card. Pinch point for sure as well as any vehicle would have to stop in the entrances. I don't expect anyone attempting to gain forced entry at those gates due to very high visibility, street lights, complexity, etc.

One side of property unfortunately adjoins to a city easement that is about 60ft wide. It's literally a conduit for criminals IMO, as it adjoins to an unrestricted, poorly maintained drainage area where there are no roads. Police cannot even access it. That back fence line is 500ft long and before we got it, someone had cut the fence. Vehicles are commonly parked on the open 2 ac fenced lot. If someone somehow got a vehicle running, their only way out is ramming a sliding gate.

I hear exactly what is being said about lights and sounds, which is why my focus is on deterrents. We will be increasing facility lighting but is already served with 6 large OH lights that are maintained under agreement with the electric utility. I feel confident that most of our issues would present at the back of the property, where it is poorly covered currently.

I am getting a MUCH better understanding on cam selection now, thanks to you guys! Identify the chokes, and get good low FOV cams in those spots to get crystal clear IDs. Use wider FOVs for general activity monitoring. Basically the wider FOV spreads the pixels out so detail is not possible. Since I am having to completely rebuild the cam system, I am mostly ignoring current cam locations because it's obvious minimal amateur thought went into it, and they bought a simple 'cam/dvr kit'....

As I design the POE system, I am trying to employ POE switch and backbone networks to give some expansion if/when needed.

 

[steve1225]

If you at design phase and You can change camera locations, there is very good tool:

CCTV Design Tool - Application

Application for CCTV design, that allowes cctv installer to make a professional system design

app.cctvdesigntool.com

You can project You cctv system using satellite/aerial photo...

this tool have huge camera database which contains also parameters - like min / max horizontal Field of Views for camera zoom range or DORI distances, which are coded as colors (So You see where is Identify range for specific camera model & zoom range, where Observe range etc)...

tools costs 12$ monthly / 51$ yearly...
allows you to avoid many costly mistakes in the CCTV system at design phase

 

[fastline12]

Really appreciate! Right now I am trying to soak my brain with some camera optic education. Focal lengths, sensors, shutter, etc. A lot to learn!

However, I wanted to ask as I try to home in on quality and appropriate cams, I am curious how motion detection is baked into cams? I know my friend that is a security pro has mentioned high end cams have next level software to literally tell the difference between a deer and a human. I guess what I am asking is how I will be able to reduce false alerts from say the trees moving, rather than a real human subject?

 

[steve1225]

Nowadays each modern camera has some kind of human/cars AI based filtering for Motion Detection.

All cameras which I give You link to, have SMD (Smart Motion Detection) and IVS (Intrusion Detection) - both with human/cars filtering...
Some cameras have much more - like 5442/54IR - where You have also animal filtering, AcuPick for searching similar looking people from other cameras, Face Detection or partial/full Video MetaData - which catches all human / faces / vehicles with describing them by AI using attributes (like male, average age, white t-shirt, blue jeans, with hat, glasses and backpack).

Look at 6 post in this thread where I give You examples how Video Meta Data works on 54IR with 5xxx-EI NVR...
You can search by those attributes.

 

[Ri22o]

Here is a post with video of my spotter cam calling my PTZ to a location to then start auto tracking. It uses (and shows) the camera's internal AI (IVS) to detect the person via tripwires.

Thread 'Video of how my spotter cam's IVS rules call my PTZ to auto-track.'

Jun 5, 2023

With more people looking to get a PTZ and asking about it moving to a preset and auto-tracking I decided to put a video together. This shows how the PTZ goes from parked to a preset based on an IVS trigger from a spotter camera. From this preset the PTZ has its own IVS rules to tell it to auto-track.

Hardware:
PTZ: SD4A425DB-HNY
Spotter: HFW5241E-Z12E
VMS: Blue Iris

How it happens:
The spotter is using IVS rules with trip wires. They are one way A > B and Person detection.
If a person is detected, and they break the trip wire, an ONVIF trigger is sent to Blue Iris.
The...

• Ri22o
• Replies: 23
• Forum: Pics & Videos

• 
• 

 

[wittaj]

This thread is a little old and the AI is even better now, but it shoes you what thr $150-$250 cameras we suggest are capable of:

Thread 'Who uses Dahua AI capable cameras? Reliable AI for triggering events? Pro's/con's?'

Feb 13, 2021

It has come to my attention that certain Dahua cameras come with built in AI that distinguishes between human & cars. I was unaware of this. Well, always saw the AI word used in the reviews but never really thought about it because I thought it was a Dahua NVR integration only.
I am currently using Deepstack AI / OnGuard to help with alerts based on human detection. OnGuard has MQTT and URL triggering to other camera capabilities which is critical to my ongoing home security concerns which connects to my Home Assitant and things to give immediate notifications.
Not sure how camera AI...

• Holbs
• Replies: 100
• Forum: Dahua

•