Covert install to protect domestic property, looking for hardware recommendations

[StupidMe]

Someone made off with my £40k campervan recently, and so I'm here to see what I can do to prevent the same thing happening again.

I already have a HIKVISION DS-2CD2387G2-LU(4MM) and it did capture the theft, however the light is very low where I live so what it captured was somewhat pointless.

The camera was hidden, so it did look as if the person who stole the campervan didn't take any precautions to cover themselves.

However, the camera was originally set up to catch whoever kept going past my house and beeping their horn as it was getting so annoying that I was going to report this to the police, and as a result the camera wasn't in the right position either to capture the theft.

Because of this I've decided I want to embark on a covert installation that covers the perimeter and entrance of my property.

I like the hikvision camera I have as it has it's own control panel and a slot for a memory card as I didn't want to set up a recorder, so I can connect to it instantly and view the live capture or play footage from an earlier point in time.

I appreciate that IP cams are computers too, so I think paying £200 for a camera seems rather inexpensive, and I'd be quite happy to pay a lot more.

Given I want a covert installation, I will be illuminating my house like a Christmas tree, so infrared won't be needed and therefore won't give away the set up.

I'd like full colour cameras too, so at night time I can see if a white van keeps passing by my house prior to anything happening, and I know it is 100% white.

The problem I have with hiding the hikvision camera I have is that the glass on the front is reflective so I am going to use it inside the house instead.

Has anyone carried an installation to this spec and if so are there any cameras you can recommend?

 

[wittaj]

There isn't any reason to covert the cameras. How well did your covert work out for you in this instance - not well at all?

If someone is intent on stealing it, the cameras don't matter. People rob banks and stores all the time and they know there are cameras in them.

If you light up your house like a Christmas tree, then they will be blinded by that and not even see the cameras.

But someone may see the cameras and skip your house and decide to steal from your neighbor instead.

It could be a deterrent with them being visible. Covert serves no purpose in this situation.

 

[wittaj]

Plus, the smaller cameras you would be looking at will never IDENTIFY at any distance. You need a camera on the proper MP/sensor ratio and the focal length to cover the area you want coverage.

Regarding cameras, it is simple LOL do not chase MP - do not buy a 4MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/1.8" sensor. Do not buy a 2MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/2.8" sensor. Do not buy a 4K (8MP) camera on anything smaller than a 1/1.2" sensor. Unfortunately, most 4k (8MP) cams are on the same sensor as a 2MP and thus the 2MP will kick its butt all night long as the 4k will need 4 times the light than the 2MP... 4k will do very poor at night unless you have stadium quality lighting (well a lot of lighting LOL).

You need to identify the areas you want to cover and pick a camera designed to cover that distance. In some instances, it may be a 2MP or 4MP that is the right camera. DO NOT CHASE MP!!!

Here are my general distance recommendations, but switch out the Dahua 5442 series camera to the equivalent 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor or equivalent Hikvision works as well.

• 5442 fixed lens 2.8mm or the 4K/X - anything within 10 feet of camera OR as an overview camera
• 5442 ZE - varifocal - distances up to 40-50 feet (personally I wouldn't go past the 30 foot range but I like things closer)
• 5442 Z4E - anything up to 80-100 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 60 feet but I like things closer)
• 5241-Z12E - anything from 80 feet to almost 200 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 150 feet because I like things closer)
• 5241-Z12E - for a license plate cam that you would angle up the street to get plates up to about 175 feet away, or up to 220 with additional IR.
• 49225 PTZ - great auto-track PTZ and in conjunction with an NVR or Blue Iris and the cameras above that you can use as spotter cams to point the PTZ to the correct location to compliment the fixed cams.

You need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A wide angle 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who.

If you want to see things far away, you need optical zoom, digital zoom only works in the movies and TV...And the optical zoom is done real time - for a varifocal it is a set it and forget it. You cannot go to recorded video and optically zoom in later, at that point it is digital zoom, and the sensors on these cameras are so small which is why digital zoom doesn't work very well after the fact. Digital zoom at night would be basically useless for your situation.

 

[StupidMe]

There isn't any reason to covert the cameras. How well did your covert work out for you in this instance - not well at all?

The camera caught the person who kept beeping, as that was what I got the camera for, and the beeping has since stopped, so I wasn't really bothered about the camera anymore, it was just pot luck I guess that I was too lazy to disconnect it.

In terms of the theft, since it happened I've seen so much footage where CCTV has been obvious and people have covered themselves up to prevent identification, but people seem to not notice ring doorbells and what not, and as a result get captured on CCTV and are easily identifiable, hence why I want covert.

I saw the following, which looks covert, but it lacks the ability to be hard wired in, I have POE available on my network so I'd like to make use of it.

Xtreme LifeTM 720P Teddy Bear Hidden Camera w/Built in DVR HD

SleuthGear's best selling hidden camera is now HD! Here's why our Xtreme Life Battery Operated hidden cameras are the best: HD Resolution 1280x720 for true 720P video digital recording Wide angle lens captures more video than ever before with a 140 degree Field of View(FOV) Digital CMOS camera...

www.directnine.uk

My wife used to work as a security guard and says security is only ever a deterrent, if people want something they will take it.

I'm rather annoyed with my campervan being stolen, and I think the people who did it came back the next night to try and steal my car, and were possibly deterred by a motion sensor activated light, the only tell tale sign was that the rubber seal around the window had been pushed in with what looked like a screw driver, so I suspect they will be back at some point, without covering themselves, to try something else. If I make it obvious there is CCTV I suspect they will still give it a go, but covered up instead.

Not to mention, my neighbour has already had their van stolen last month, so they are just targeting everyone in the area.

 

[wittaj]

You are giving the perps too much credit. They are either going to cover up in the event someone has cameras or they just don't care. We see videos here of a perp putting their face right into someones camera to disconnect it before they steal the car. Or someone stealing a Ring doorbell thinking that is where the video is stored.

If you are insistent on coverting the cameras, you will be better off staying away from covert cams and using real cams and do what others have done - hide them in fake hose reels, birdhouses, landscape lighting, etc. Otherwise you will end up with a video that let's you know what time something happened, but not be able to IDENTIFY who they are.

 

[StupidMe]

Thanks for the information you are providing, it is definitely worth posting as I've been reading your comments and I'm learning a lot.

it sounds like the Hikvision camera I have is totally the wrong camera if I want to use it at night, it feels like it the Hikvision advertising is misleading as at night it is truly useless, probably because of the 1/1.2 sensor, despite being sold as true full colour night vision. The biggest gripe I have with this camera is just how poor it is at night despite the claims of "full colour" as I have to use a long exposure to get anything to show when it is dark, and that just makes anything moving so blurry I can't make it out.

In terms of the lens, I picked a 4mm lens but that even seemed to be too wide for what I wanted.

When it comes to converting the cameras, would placing them high up (13 foot high) be an issue, if I go with a camera with optical zoom? That way I can at least try and hide the cameras

For the others I'll try and hide them as you say rather than buying covert cameras.

 

[wittaj]

Yeah, everyone believes that Full Color cameras are great and the answer, and that simply isn't the case. They do serve a purpose and in the right location they are phenomenal, but they need light. All cameras need light.

The camera you have with the 1/1.2" sensor is as good as they come and is a large sensor in terms of these types of cameras, but they need light. Simple physics.

Some of these full-color type cameras now come with white LEDs on them. I have a few other Full Color type cameras and the LED light on it is a gimmick. It helps for a small diameter circle, but it is no different than going outside at pitch black and turning on your cell phone light - it is bright looking directly at the LED light, but it doesn't spread out and reach very far. Fortunately I have enough ambient light that I do not need the little piddly LED light on and it actually looks worse with it on, but it performs better than my other cameras when tested at the same location. But without some light, a camera with IR capability is the safer bet.

Cameras up high with varifocals can work because you are "flattening" the angle. Too many people though stick 2.8 to 4mm cameras up on the 2nd story and love the wide angle "see the whole neighborhood", but that comes at a cost of not being able to identify. All of the IDENTIFY distance is lost vertically and all you see are tops of heads.

As an example, here is my 2MP Z12E varifocal OPTICALLY zoomed to a spot about 95 feet away. This camera is on the 2nd story. It works because at 95 feet out, the angle is flattened. This picture was able to be used by the police to track him down. Let's see a 4mm fixed lens do that at 95 feet LOL.



Here is great option someone did - turned a landscaping light into a camera!

Someone else did a birdhouse camera:

So I roughly have installed a 5442 6mm birdhouse camera on lamp post 50' from my front door....with tire slashing incursion discussion

Broke the roof a little, will fix later. Gotta add some green leaves or fake ivy as well. But for now, it is working. 6' height aimed right down the street where it is the only entrance (it's slightly crooked for time being). It's primary purpose is to catch faces as folks walk towards my...

ipcamtalk.com

Someone else hid it in a hose reel:



So lot's of options. But it is best to purchase the correct camera for your needs and then figure out how to hide it later. A true covert camera only works for IDENTIFY at close range, and many are useless at night because they do not see IR.

 

[StupidMe]

My plot is tiny, I can just about get 2 small cars on it and open the doors, and my house is a low height for a two storey house as it was originally only one storey, which is why I feel the 4mm lens is way too wide.

I've spent a while looking around and found the following:

IPC-B650H-Z HiLook by Hikvision 120dB WDR 5MP H.265 Motorised Zoom IP Bullet Camera with 30m Night Vision & PoE

Cameras, IPC-B650H-Z,

www.jmcsecure.co.uk

It is a mini bullet camera, small enough to hide by placing high up, but I'm confused about the sensor sizes so not sure if the sensor is too small or not.

This may seem like a daft question, as I presume the smaller the number the smaller the sensor, but I just want to make sure this is the case, so out of the following, which is smaller?
1/2.7 or 1/2.8

Thanks for your help too btw and glad to hear that your CCTV was put to good use

 

[wittaj]

You are looking at a budget cam, which use lessor quality material and sensors to sell a MP that the uninformed general public thinks they want.

Sensor sizing can confuse a lot of people LOL.

It is simple division:

1 divided by 3 equals 0.333

1 divided by 2.8 equals 0.357

Is a 1/2.8" sensor bigger than a 1/1.8" sensor? Most people say yes LOL. But it is a fraction, so the 1/1.8" sensor is the bigger of the two. A 1/2.8" sensor is smaller than a 1/2.7" sensor. Your existing camera on a 1/1.2" sensor is large by comparison, but if put in the wrong location, it will suck.

This applies to camera sensors too LOL:

Stay away from those 5MP. Ideal sensor size is:

2MP = 1/2.8"
4MP = 1/1.8"
8MP = 1/1.2"

So simply doing a ratio, a 5MP would need a 1/1.65" sensor to be comparable, and we just do not see a 5MP on a sensor any larger than 1/2.7".

The budget cam will make for an ok overview camera, but you shouldn't expect IDENTIFY capabilities from it in most instances, especially on a 2nd story. A 12mm focal length at best will IDENTIFY at maybe 30 feet out at night. Most of that is lost in the vertical.

 

[StupidMe]

I've gone full circle and came back to one of the cameras I believe you mentioned earlier:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/DAHUA-network-camera-STARLIGHT-IPC-HFW5241E-Z12E/dp/B089SR3Y8M

It is not as big as the Hikvision bullet equivalent so I think it is worth seeing how visible it is when I set it up.

If my understanding is correct, this camera should work well for being able to identify trespassers in a well lit area at night, when mounted about 13 foot up, with an optical zoom set so that I can zoom into the area I want to cover.

However, before I buy it I just want to make sure I'm measuring correctly, should I be using A), B) or C) to determine the distance? I presume it is B) but I wanted to check to make sure I order the correct cameras.

 

[wittaj]

Yes, B would be the correct distance. 13 feet high is right on the verge at 22 feet. As long as the person isn't looking straight down, you should stand a good chance at getting something.

Many of us purchase our cams from @EMPIRETECANDY a member here with an Amazon and AliExpress store, as well as direct with him. @IAmATeaf is from the UK as well and can vouch for him providing service and sales to UK, often at a cheaper price.

 

[mat200]

I've gone full circle and came back to one of the cameras I believe you mentioned earlier:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/DAHUA-network-camera-STARLIGHT-IPC-HFW5241E-Z12E/dp/B089SR3Y8M

It is not as big as the Hikvision bullet equivalent so I think it is worth seeing how visible it is when I set it up.

If my understanding is correct, this camera should work well for being able to identify trespassers in a well lit area at night, when mounted about 13 foot up, with an optical zoom set so that I can zoom into the area I want to cover.

However, before I buy it I just want to make sure I'm measuring correctly, should I be using A), B) or C) to determine the distance? I presume it is B) but I wanted to check to make sure I order the correct cameras.

View attachment 122024

FYI - DORI distance numbers are theoretical and is based on the distance from the camera to a straight on facial image capture.

So, if the suspect is NOT looking directly at the camera your ID'able image quality is reduced .. 13 feet up is too high if the suspect is closer to the camera and failed to look directly at the camera.

 

[sebastiantombs]

Sensor size comparisons.

1/3" = .333" Great for 720P
1/2.8" = .357" (think a .38 caliber bullet) Great for 2MP
1/1.8" = .555" (bigger than a .50 caliber bullet or ball) Great for 4MP
1/1.2" = .833" (bigger than a 20mm chain gun round) Great for 8MP

At a distance of 19 feet with the camera at a height of 13 feet you may get a face shot good enough for identity. Note I say "may". At eight feet you would most likely get a shot good enough for identity. Height is an enemy at closer distances.

 

[Old Timer]

Don't forget that a GPS tracker in the van might not only track the van, but arrest the ones responsible.
They are fairly inexpensive and some companies will give you a discount for quantity.
I went in with a friend for quantity and put them on my tractors, trailers and autos.
We went with ones that have a small backup battery, and are charged from the vehicle battery.

 

[wittaj]

An example from just today where would be thieves were oblivious to the cameras.

Just some local thieves spooked by motion sensor light

It's interesting how oblivious they are to the cameras, but start running as soon as light turns on. I know camera position and lightning are not the greatest. The color IPC is IPC-T5442T-ZE the BW is IPC-HDW3541T-ZAS.

ipcamtalk.com

 

[wittaj]

And some more hidden camera ideas:

Wife approved locations

My wife is very picky so I had to come up with a good way to place my backyard cameras! The Owl has a Wyze camera and the flower basket has a Dahua camera. From a distance the lenses are not too visible, but of course close-up it is obvious.

ipcamtalk.com

 

[StupidMe]

Thanks, I've got the first camera set up but the lighting causing an issue, the camera looks in the direction of the light which causes a bloom of light on the camera, is there a way to fix this? Also, which type of lighting works best with cctv? And lastly I really want a tracker installed and asked the police about it and their response was, "As for trackers for your vehicle, unfortunately we are unable to provide assistance with specific tracking companies." Is this the right place to ask about trackers as I have a lot of tracker related questions too?

 

[StupidMe]

I've cropped out a lot of the picture as the camera is hidden so I don't want to give too much away as to where it is positioned for obvious reasons.

 

[wittaj]

Taking it off of default settings helps a lot - not only with light glare but with the ability to capture good motion at night.


Many people do not realize there is manual shutter that lets you adjust shutter and gain and a shutter priority that only lets you adjust shutter speed but not gain. The higher the gain, the bigger the noise and see-through ghosting start to appear because the noise is amplified. Most people select shutter priority and run a faster shutter than they should because it is likely being done at 100 gain, so it is actually defeating their purpose of a faster shutter.

But first, run H264, smart codec off, CBR, and 8192 bitrate to start. This should make it more crisp.

I think you should also take off manual IR - your camera is low so you are getting a lot of IR bounce off the ground that is degrading the picture.

Go into shutter settings and change to manual shutter and start with custom shutter as ms and change to 0-8.3ms and gain 0-50 (night) and 0-30 (day)for starters. Auto could have a shutter speed of 100ms or more with a gain at 100 and shutter priority could result in gain up at 100 which will contribute to significant ghosting and that blinding white you will get from the infrared.

Now what you will notice immediately at night is that your image gets A LOT darker. That faster the shutter, the more light that is needed. But it is a balance. The nice bright night image results in Casper during motion LOL. What do we want, a nice static image or a clean image when there is motion introduced to the scene?

So if it is too dark, then start adding ms to the time. Go to 10ms, 12ms, etc. until you find what you feel is acceptable as an image. Then have someone walk around and see if you can get a clean shot. Try not to go above 16.67ms (but certainly not above 30ms) as that tends to be the point where blur starts to occur. Conversely, if it is still bright, then drop down in time to get a faster shutter.

You can also adjust brightness and contrast to improve the image.

You can also add some gain to brighten the image - but the higher the gain, the more ghosting you get. Some cameras can go to 70 or so before it is an issue and some can't go over 50.

But adjusting those two settings will have the biggest impact. The next one is noise reduction. Want to keep that as low as possible. Depending on the amount of light you have, you might be able to get down to 40 or so at night (again camera dependent) and 20-30 during the day, but take it as low as you can before it gets too noisy. Again this one is a balance as well. Too smooth and no noise can result in soft images and contribute to blur.

Do not use backlight features until you have exhausted every other parameter setting. And if you do have to use backlight, take it down as low as possible.

After every setting adjustment, have someone walk around outside and see if you can freeze-frame to get a clean image. If not, keep changing until you do. Clean motion pictures are what we are after, not a clean static image.

 

[StupidMe]

Sorry some of those options don't exist as I've not been able to order the camera yet, I was waiting for a response on here but not heard anything. The camera I've set up is the hikvision camera, and I don't think it has IR. I can adjust the shutter speed but I need to work out whether it applies the same shutter speed at day as it does at night.