Dahua Starlight Varifocal Turret (IPC-HDW5231R-Z)

CCTVCam

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One of the things striking me about this cam from the specs is the low bit rate - it appears to be a little over 5mbs using H.265.

I find it a real pity that Dahua don't offer a means of adjusting the encoding rate as I have to wonder what effect running 10mbs or even 15 or 20mbs using H.265 would be like.

I think it's fair to say that some customers would prefer to have the choice of upping the quality over keeping the file size the very smallest it can be especially as many other cameras run 10mbs or more data rates anyway.
 

fenderman

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One of the things striking me about this cam from the specs is the low bit rate - it appears to be a little over 5mbs using H.265.

I find it a real pity that Dahua don't offer a means of adjusting the encoding rate as I have to wonder what effect running 10mbs or even 15 or 20mbs using H.265 would be like.

I think it's fair to say that some customers would prefer to have the choice of upping the quality over keeping the file size the very smallest it can be especially as many other cameras run 10mbs or more data rates anyway.
because it wont matter one bit...at some point you get no additional return...even using h.264 anything over 4096(likely even less) for a 1080p camera is simply a waste of resources...
 

Alexei

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I can set the bitrate to 6656 with iframe at 24 but as others have said this is so unnecessary with H265.
I use h265 @2250 24fps 1080p which I find perfect.
 

CCTVCam

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because it wont matter one bit...at some point you get no additional return...even using h.264 anything over 4096(likely even less) for a 1080p camera is simply a waste of resources...
I agree there's a point of a no additional return but on what basis do you say that using anything over 5Mbs for a 1080P camera is a waste of time?

There is some movement with CCTV when for example a vehicle comes through the picture or a person sprints through the picture. I find it a little difficult to believe that such a low bit rate cannot show some gain in such circumstances. There's more to simply fitting the most video in the least space in my opinion.

I just wondered if has anyone tried using custom firmware and comparing say 5mbs, 10mbs, 15mbs and 20mbs with a fast moving object such as a car travelling at speed and passing through the frame (not just crawling), or someone sprinting flat out as opposed to just jogging? Just wondering because of the affect on number plate readability / facial recognition in these circumstances.



 

fenderman

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I agree there's a point of a no additional return but on what basis do you say that using anything over 5Mbs for a 1080P camera is a waste of time?

There is some movement with CCTV when for example a vehicle comes through the picture or a person sprints through the picture. I find it a little difficult to believe that such a low bit rate cannot show some gain in such circumstances. There's more to simply fitting the most video in the least space in my opinion.

I just wondered if has anyone tried using custom firmware and comparing say 5mbs, 10mbs, 15mbs and 20mbs with a fast moving object such as a car travelling at speed and passing through the frame (not just crawling), or someone sprinting flat out as opposed to just jogging? Just wondering because of the affect on number plate readability / facial recognition in these circumstances.
Speed of the object has zero relationship to bitrate....my basis is years of experience and testing...you keep calling it a low bitrate...it's actually a very high bitrate... getting a better shot of fast moving objects is all about exposure settings...
 
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I only see a Pal version offered. Is it a hardware difference or can it be converted
to NTSC with firmware?
Does it make any difference anyway?
 

Arjun

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No difference whatsoever, you can apply a the firmware for NTSC though (vice versa)

I only see a Pal version offered. Is it a hardware difference or can it be converted
to NTSC with firmware?
Does it make any difference anyway?
 
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Out of curiosity what is the setup for the system you're using? I understand you're using solar to power things, but I'm also curious how are you getting ethernet to the tree, etc.
No, we are not using solar. We have a power outlet not far from the tree, so we use that and we have a Ubiquiti UniFI AP Outdoor 2x2 MIMO Access Point that, so far, has worked flawlessly.

We still have one Sharx SCNC3905 that is still working and is placed on a dock which can be viewed in real-time at http://spruillcam.dyndns.org:81/en/login.asp.

The Sharx SCNC3905 we had on the owl nest is now unusable.

We need an IP camera to record video and snapshots of a great horned owls nest. We need a weatherproof, outdoor camera, 1080p, Wi-Fi, Night Vision, Mobile and Web access. PTZ would be nice not essential. Reliablity IS essential. The camera will be 5' to 10' from the nest, so a close focus is important.

What do you think about this?
 

CCTVCam

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Speed of the object has zero relationship to bitrate....my basis is years of experience and testing...you keep calling it a low bitrate...it's actually a very high bitrate... getting a better shot of fast moving objects is all about exposure settings...
Sorry but I would disagree there. The amount of compression applied to the picture is the result of the amount of change between 1 frame and the next. The beauty of CCTV compared to say a dashcam is the vast majority of the picture is stationary and so never changes, and so can simply be referenced instead of recorded as data and compressed every frame. Introduce a fast moving object, and the amount of data that needs to be compressed increases because the amount of change between the frames is higher and so much more change in the picture needs to be recorded. With a dashcam and most other types of cameras eg. action cams, broadcast cams etc this is critical. The more movement, the more data, the higher the compression and the more detail lost. However, CCTV is much more stationary. Hence the question as to whether or not anyone has actually tried different bit rates to see if there is any effect on the readability of plates of a fast moving car or the face of a runner. It may be, that with so little change generally, it makes no difference. However, I ask simply because number plates are often problematic with video generally and so it's interesting to know if improvement could be made to CCTV footage where fast moving objects are concerned, through bit rate increases. 4-5mbs is very low compared to dashcams which often run 20mbs+. Also, given storage costs these days, there comes a point where you have to ask if having the smallest file size or a slightly larger file size and better quality offer the best value.

With a bit more specific reference to this camera, I see it's be lauded as the best camera for home use by far. However, the picture in the SD49225T-HN thread appears much better resolved to my eyes. What's the difference? Better quality optics on the SD Turret despite the zoom range?
 

CamCrazy

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Hence the question as to whether or not anyone has actually tried different bit rates to see if there is any effect on the readability of plates of a fast moving car or the face of a runner.
Over the years I have experimented a lot with analogue and now digital CCTV, in analogue setups with Dahua recorders I always found 12-15fps, best quality VBR and maximum bitrate worked well with vehicles and fast moving people. With the IP cameras from Dahua (5231 and 49225) I find the sweet spot to be around 15fps, CBR and again 6000-8192 bitrate, critically I run shutter priority between 1/250 and 1/500 depending on the object speed, relying on auto setting for the shutter in anything other than good light can leave you with motion blurred vehicles or people. If I drop the bitrate below 6000-8192 whilst increasing fps above 15 there is a good chance of substantial image degradation when vehicles pass through the frame, with the severity depending on their colour, size and other variables. For my usage with moving vehicles in particular reducing the bitrate to say 4000 would mean dropping to around 6fps or similar to be sure of no quality problems. Again, this is very dependant on the moving object size in relation to the total frame size.

Also, given storage costs these days, there comes a point where you have to ask if having the smallest file size or a slightly larger file size and better quality offer the best value.
The current obsession for compressing video streams is frustrating, for certain situations it can obviously be a massive benefit, maybe even in most situations but why not give the end user a choice if they would like to achieve maximum detail and have a system which will handle the bandwidth. If bandwidth can be reduced with no noticeable reduction in quality then I will take that option everyday. Personally I would like to use MJPEG on some cameras in critical areas, frankly I would rather run MJPEG at 10fps than H264 at 15fps just to get some extra detail and actually be able to use the cameras sensor to its full potential, this is very subjective I know but my preference in almost all instances is for maximum quality and to freeze motion, doubt I am alone in that.

However, the picture in the SD49225T-HN thread appears much better resolved to my eyes. What's the difference? Better quality optics on the SD Turret despite the zoom range?
Totally agree, I find the 49225 superior in most respects, it needs a less aggressive shutter speed to freeze motion and requires less light to produce a better image, I can only assume like you say that the optic qualities are superior to the 5231 turret series, it doesn't make much sense since on paper the 5231 should perform as well if not better to my mind. This only makes the 49225 look like even more of a bargain if you can live with its more imposing size.
 
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fenderman

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Sorry but I would disagree there. The amount of compression applied to the picture is the result of the amount of change between 1 frame and the next. The beauty of CCTV compared to say a dashcam is the vast majority of the picture is stationary and so never changes, and so can simply be referenced instead of recorded as data and compressed every frame. Introduce a fast moving object, and the amount of data that needs to be compressed increases because the amount of change between the frames is higher and so much more change in the picture needs to be recorded. With a dashcam and most other types of cameras eg. action cams, broadcast cams etc this is critical. The more movement, the more data, the higher the compression and the more detail lost. However, CCTV is much more stationary. Hence the question as to whether or not anyone has actually tried different bit rates to see if there is any effect on the readability of plates of a fast moving car or the face of a runner. It may be, that with so little change generally, it makes no difference. However, I ask simply because number plates are often problematic with video generally and so it's interesting to know if improvement could be made to CCTV footage where fast moving objects are concerned, through bit rate increases. 4-5mbs is very low compared to dashcams which often run 20mbs+. Also, given storage costs these days, there comes a point where you have to ask if having the smallest file size or a slightly larger file size and better quality offer the best value.

With a bit more specific reference to this camera, I see it's be lauded as the best camera for home use by far. However, the picture in the SD49225T-HN thread appears much better resolved to my eyes. What's the difference? Better quality optics on the SD Turret despite the zoom range?
You completely missed the point...despite your desire to believe otherwise the bitrate will make zero difference...a properly positioned 1080p camera can pickup a plate using very low bitrates, 1024 or lower...The reason why plates are problematic is exposure...I suggest going to the LPR section of this forum and reading about proper setup...keep in mind that you keep comparing it to dashcams likely running h.264....you are also erroneously stating "slightly larger file sizes" when in reality quadrupling the bitrate would quadruple the file size. It seems like you never used an ip camera, get one, test it and see for yourself. At 15fps, 4096 is way more than sufficient for a 1080p camera, any higher is a complete waste of space and resources...but in the word of folks buying 12mp cameras just because they think they would get a better image I am not surprised that they also look for high bitrates...its amateurish...
 

CCTVCam

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Over the years I have experimented a lot with analogue and now digital CCTV, in analogue setups with Dahua recorders I always found 12-15fps, best quality VBR and maximum bitrate worked well with vehicles and fast moving people. With the IP cameras from Dahua (5231 and 49225) I find the sweet spot to be around 15fps, CBR and again 6000-8192 bitrate, critically I run shutter priority between 1/250 and 1/500 depending on the object speed, relying on auto setting for the shutter in anything other than good light can leave you with motion blurred vehicles or people. If I drop the bitrate below 6000-8192 whilst increasing fps above 15 there is a good chance of substantial image degradation when vehicles pass through the frame, with the severity depending on their colour, size and other variables. For my usage with moving vehicles in particular reducing the bitrate to say 4000 would mean dropping to around 6fps or similar to be sure of no quality problems. Again, this is very dependant on the moving object size in relation to the total frame size.
Your findings support exactly what I'm suggesting could be a quality issue - the fact that the sweet spot for quality falls at the highest bit rate but only a medium frame rate suggests that the recorded picture is bit rate starved at the higher frame rates with great compression being applied and thus more artefacing and loss of quality. Otherwise were it sufficient, the picture at 30fps would be the same quality (individual frames) as at 15fps in the day with the effect that overall quality video would remain the same (but smoother at 30fps).

If the bit rate were sufficient, it should be possible to get a top quality picture at the full upper frame limit of the camera (at least in daylight - obviously at night other factors come into play which favour lower frame rates such as light gathering ability).

The current obsession for compressing video streams is frustrating, for certain situations it can obviously be a massive benefit, maybe even in most situations but why not give the end user a choice if they would like to achieve maximum detail and have a system which will handle the bandwidth. If bandwidth can be reduced with no noticeable reduction in quality then I will take that option everyday. Personally I would like to use MJPEG on some cameras in critical areas, frankly I would rather run MJPEG at 10fps than H264 at 15fps just to get some extra detail and actually be able to use the cameras sensor to its full potential, this is very subjective I know but my preference in almost all instances is for maximum quality and to freeze motion, doubt I am alone in that.
Yes, it seems to be a race to the bottom.

if you are a business and want to save months of video streams from 16 or 32 cameras, or are on a budget and don't want to install (what is really enough) hard drive capacity, then the are advantages to having the smallest possible file size.

However, compression is never a good thing and I personally would like to see the user given the option on the compression front so the user can choose what is more important to them, max quality or minimum file size.

Totally agree, I find the 49225 superior in most respects, it needs a less aggressive shutter speed to freeze motion and requires less light to produce a better image, I can only assume like you say that the optic qualities are superior to the 5231 turret series, it doesn't make much sense since on paper the 5231 should perform as well if not better to my mind. This only makes the 49225 look like even more of a bargain if you can live with its more imposing size.
That's the impression I get which is actually a real shame for the 5231. A 25x zoom should be compromised on quality from the start, because of the number of groups of lens in use - the old photographers rule here of you usually get the best quality picture from a fixed focal length lens comes into play, and not from a zoom and especially not from a super zoom. However, it appears the glass quality of the 49225 my be far superior to that used in the much smaller focal length 5231. This is a pity and a real limiting factor given that sales of the 5231 are likely to be much higher due to smaller size, a lack of need for a motorised turret in many applications and cost.

You completely missed the point...despite your desire to believe otherwise the bitrate will make zero difference...a properly positioned 1080p camera can pickup a plate using very low bitrates, 1024 or lower...The reason why plates are problematic is exposure...I suggest going to the LPR section of this forum and reading about proper setup...keep in mind that you keep comparing it to dashcams likely running h.264....you are also erroneously stating "slightly larger file sizes" when in reality quadrupling the bitrate would quadruple the file size. It seems like you never used an ip camera, get one, test it and see for yourself. At 15fps, 4096 is way more than sufficient for a 1080p camera, any higher is a complete waste of space and resources...but in the word of folks buying 12mp cameras just because they think they would get a better image I am not surprised that they also look for high bitrates...its amateurish...
I don't mean to appear rude Fenderman, especially as I'm new here but you seem to not properly understand how compression works. As I said above compression works by referencing the change between frames in the picture. This means that the amount of compression applied is proportional to the amount of change in the picture from one frame to the next. It's also proportionate to the amount of detail. Thus any movement in the picture (be it object or camera), the greater the positional change of pixels within the frame and the higher the amount of compression needed to record the change - the bit rate fixes the available space so all the detail of the picture has to be fitted within the fixed bit rate. The more data there is, the less it fits and so the higher the compression applied. The more compression, the more pixels within the frame become referenced by areas of similar colour / texture rather than by their true content, and the more errors, artefacts and loss of definition within the picture (including readability of text / blurring of moving areas etc).

It's also a common misconception to believe that to double the quality you have to double the bit rate because with the codec only referencing the change from frame to frame, it's only part of the full frame that's being compressed so it doesn't require double the space to 1/2 the compression rate.

There's a good simple article here that specifically explains how a higher bit rate is needed for moving objects - the example here is a static CCTV picture vs one at a busy intersection (where obviously there's a lot of traffic and thus movement within the picture):

CBR vs VBR vs MBR - Surveillance Streaming
 

Jagradang

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Newbie question. Only setup my cameras few days ago and this discussion on encoding has actually been quite helpful. So question for you guys, I wanted to use h265 (pal) and from what I gather the best setting will probably be 15fps and around 4000 bit rate? I know this may vary from location to location but I'm looking for an idea where to start for best results and then can adjust based on how it goes.

Appreciate all the help
 
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fenderman

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Your findings support exactly what I'm suggesting could be a quality issue - the fact that the sweet spot for quality falls at the highest bit rate but only a medium frame rate suggests that the recorded picture is bit rate starved at the higher frame rates with great compression being applied and thus more artefacing and loss of quality. Otherwise were it sufficient, the picture at 30fps would be the same quality (individual frames) as at 15fps in the day with the effect that overall quality video would remain the same (but smoother at 30fps).

If the bit rate were sufficient, it should be possible to get a top quality picture at the full upper frame limit of the camera (at least in daylight - obviously at night other factors come into play which favour lower frame rates such as light gathering ability).



Yes, it seems to be a race to the bottom.

if you are a business and want to save months of video streams from 16 or 32 cameras, or are on a budget and don't want to install (what is really enough) hard drive capacity, then the are advantages to having the smallest possible file size.

However, compression is never a good thing and I personally would like to see the user given the option on the compression front so the user can choose what is more important to them, max quality or minimum file size.



That's the impression I get which is actually a real shame for the 5231. A 25x zoom should be compromised on quality from the start, because of the number of groups of lens in use - the old photographers rule here of you usually get the best quality picture from a fixed focal length lens comes into play, and not from a zoom and especially not from a super zoom. However, it appears the glass quality of the 49225 my be far superior to that used in the much smaller focal length 5231. This is a pity and a real limiting factor given that sales of the 5231 are likely to be much higher due to smaller size, a lack of need for a motorised turret in many applications and cost.



I don't mean to appear rude Fenderman, especially as I'm new here but you seem to not properly understand how compression works. As I said above compression works by referencing the change between frames in the picture. This means that the amount of compression applied is proportional to the amount of change in the picture from one frame to the next. It's also proportionate to the amount of detail. Thus any movement in the picture (be it object or camera), the greater the positional change of pixels within the frame and the higher the amount of compression needed to record the change - the bit rate fixes the available space so all the detail of the picture has to be fitted within the fixed bit rate. The more data there is, the less it fits and so the higher the compression applied. The more compression, the more pixels within the frame become referenced by areas of similar colour / texture rather than by their true content, and the more errors, artefacts and loss of definition within the picture (including readability of text / blurring of moving areas etc).

It's also a common misconception to believe that to double the quality you have to double the bit rate because with the codec only referencing the change from frame to frame, it's only part of the full frame that's being compressed so it doesn't require double the space to 1/2 the compression rate.

There's a good simple article here that specifically explains how a higher bit rate is needed for moving objects - the example here is a static CCTV picture vs one at a busy intersection (where obviously there's a lot of traffic and thus movement within the picture):

CBR vs VBR vs MBR - Surveillance Streaming
I know exactly how it works and you are making a bunch of amateur newbie mistakes...long winded manefesto type responses does not prove your point. In the real world the difference between bitrate settings is negligible...and I cannot stress this enough, you can pick up a number plate no problem with 1024 bitrate...but keep reading the articles which provide no data or reference points...Not sure about your reference to doubling the bitrate - I never mentioned anything regarding that....here is a suggestion, buy an ip camera - any ip camera and test it....you are making lots of newbie assumption..the blurring seen in video has ZERO to do with bitrate and everything to do with the sensor and exposure....do yourself a huge favor and read the LPR section of this forum. I further suggest that you get some more experience under your belt before you mislead folks about proper bitrates and ip cameras. You are not the first newbie to post nonsense like this without even owning a damn camera - i dont get it.
 
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fenderman

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Newbie question. Only setup my cameras few days ago and this discussion on encoding has actually been quite helpful. So question for you guys, I wanted to use h265 (pal) and from what I gather the best setting will probably be 15fps and around 4000 bit rate? I know this may vary from location to location but I'm looking for an idea where to start for best results and then can adjust based on how it goes.

Appreciate all the help
That is fine, you can go much lower if you need more retention time with little effect on video quality...best thing to do is test it for yourself..
 

Jagradang

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That is fine, you can go much lower if you need more retention time with little effect on video quality...best thing to do is test it for yourself..
Thank you! Much appreciated. Just wanted a baseline really to make sure I'm on the right tracks. Will play with settings once I got a baseline done.
 
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