HDW4631C-A or 4433 or 2MP Starlight - what to buy?

[sumguy]

As someone who owns a few english 4431 and has seen them record video's of trespassers in the middle of the night, I have mixed feelings about the desire for low-light performance (ie - the real value of B/W recordings of intruders / thieves). Color gives so much more info (makes faces more recognizable, clothing color, etc). But I get it that you can't always have enough light where you need it to get good color video at 2 am. I'm basically saying that paying a premium for Starlight is not very attractive for me.

I'm looking to get a few more cameras, the idea of getting really-good low-light (even if 2MP) is tempting, but I have no idea what model and what they cost. I do know that the 4631 is like $90 (CAD) and the 4433 is between $60 - $70 CAD. What are the best Starlight camera's costing today?

Regarding the 4631 and 4433, in terms of what's shipping from China today in terms of English firmware, how is the IVS in these cameras? Only basic motion-detection, or do they have all the fancy stuff (trip-wire, etc) ?

 

[fenderman]

As someone who owns a few english 4431 and has seen them record video's of trespassers in the middle of the night, I have mixed feelings about the desire for low-light performance (ie - the real value of B/W recordings of intruders / thieves). Color gives so much more info (makes faces more recognizable, clothing color, etc). But I get it that you can't always have enough light where you need it to get good color video at 2 am. I'm basically saying that paying a premium for Starlight is not very attractive for me.

I'm looking to get a few more cameras, the idea of getting really-good low-light (even if 2MP) is tempting, but I have no idea what model and what they cost. I do know that the 4631 is like $90 (CAD) and the 4433 is between $60 - $70 CAD. What are the best Starlight camera's costing today?

Regarding the 4631 and 4433, in terms of what's shipping from China today in terms of English firmware, how is the IVS in these cameras? Only basic motion-detection, or do they have all the fancy stuff (trip-wire, etc) ?

Wow, it's like this forum doesn't exist. Buy hacked China region crap and be on your merry way. The 2mp starlight will produce a superior image even when you have decent lighting.

 

[looney2ns]

Upper right corner of your screen, is the word "search".

 

[mat200]

For those new to this site, and seeing this question on the post -

Warning: DO NOT buy Chinese region hacked to English cameras to save a few dollars - your time is worth more than the savings, and if you do not know what you are doing and connect these to the internet it is just a question of time before you get into issues as you will not be able to update the firmware easily.

 

[tigerwillow1]

I'm not getting a clear message about what's important to you with regard to low light images, so I'll just pass along what I know. I run several models of the chinese market 4431 series, and several models of the 2MP startlights. I readily agree that B/W images give far less information, but even in B/W mode, the 2MP startlight gives more information in low light situations. In some cases, you'll be able to faintly see things that don't appear at all on the non-starlight camera. Things that are faintly seen on the non-starlight camera will have better definition and better contrast on the starlight camera. The cost of the 2MP starlight cameras generally runs from about $120 USD for fixed focus to about $200 USD for varifocal with audio and external event I/O. There's also a reduced feature varifocal that competes price-wise with the fixed-focus models. If you've got a small amount of light available at night, look at the "full color" 2MP starlight that gives the very best low-light color images, with no B/W capability.

Not having an 4631 or 4433 cameras I'm reluctant to take the risk of saying something incorrect. Logically, I'd expect the 4433 to be similar to the 4431 series. With the exception of low light performance and inability to upgrade the firmware, I have found the 4431 series cameras to have absolutely no shortcomings (including IVS) compared to the international starlights. Check the 4631 and 4433 specs to be sure. If the low light images are important to you, the 2MP starlights are significantly better. You have to make the cost vs. capability tradeoff for yourself. Also be warned, if you're going to use a dahua nvr, the newer nvr firmware actively rejects the chinese market cameras.

 

[fenderman]

Fixed Turret starlight 2mp with Mic start at 100 slow shipping. Varifocal 170 fast shipping.

 

[kombi]

I have a similar question, tossing up between 4631EM-ASE or 4231 EM-AS starlight. My areas of focus would only be over say 10 to 12 metres and floodlit at night with sensors (front door / side gate etc). Would the 6MP camera be overkill for this? And would the 2MP cameras face recognition be comparable? Thanks in advance.

 

[sumguy]

> I'm not getting a clear message about what's important to you with regard to low light images,

It's this: Having seen some examples of actual intruders recorded in IR mode, and seeing how the faces, even if properly captured and lit will look "spooky" or ghostly, and naturally have no color information (ie clothing, hair, etc), I'm having a hard time deciding whether to light outdoor situations with IR (for spooky-mode video) or visible light (even dim visible light) for "natural" mode video (with color). I'm questioning the value of IR B/W surveillance video from a suspect-identification pov. The answer to that will point me to use different cameras I suppose.

One thing I'm getting from reading stuff is, sure the 4/6/8 MP cameras are great and take fantastic day images, but when your focus is on night-time property protection, there's really no point in anything higher than 2 MP. Correct?

I've also wondered why you can't force the typical camera to stay in color-mode when you switch it to night-mode. I mean, night-mode means the IR filter is physically moved out of the way of the sensor, so why does the camera convert the images to grey-scale in that situation? Is it that the color information is just to noisy to be useful? Perhaps my next question is related to this color issue:

I'm seeing the term "full color" or "full color starlight" turn up on ads on ebay, like this:

Dahua OEM 2MP Full color Starlight Bullet IP Camera H.265 POE IPC-HFW4239T-ASE ($170 CAD, $135 USD).

Is that a camera that does what I just asked about? Stay in color mode when the IR filter is cut out?

I note the difference between the above camera, and this one:

Dahua IPC-HFW4231T-ASE 2MP Starlight IP Camera IR80m WDR H.265 PoE Onvif Network ($160 CAD, $120 USD)

No mention of "full color", and is slightly cheaper.

 

[tigerwillow1]

Search for "full color", titles only, in all forums. Right now 3 threads come up. 2 of them answer a lot of the questions. The HFW4231T is not a full color camera, just a 2MP starlight fixed focus bullet. Take a look at this thread, lots of camera info and links to even more info Dahua 2MP Starlight Lineup

The pixel count issue at night is that while in theory you get more information from more pixels, each individual pixel is less sensitive to light. The tradeoff is 2 megapixels of good information vs. more megapixels of bad information. At this time, the 2 MP starlights are giving the best low light result in the price range that most forum members participate in. I'm guessing you could do a lot better with a lot more money.

 

[sumguy]

I've just read the entire thread: "IPC-HFW4239T-ASE TrueColor - new bullet camera" started by Korgoth July 13 and the thread "IPC-HFW4239T-ASE (Full Color Starlight) as a weather cam" It doesn't appear that my question about the IR cut filter and color-mode was answered. My question: Do any Dahua cameras stay in "color mode" when the IR cut filter is switched out? If no, then why not? If yes, then what sort of image do you get in an extreme low-light situation when you add either a few low-intensity IR lights or low intensity white lights (or even a few of each) ?

 

[aristobrat]

I don't know if this helps answer your question, but FWIW:

@Korgoth

You are right, I should present some moving objects. I’ll give it a go when I’ll have some spare time.

However I cannot agree with what you’ve wrote about sensor sensitivity. It is not true, the sensor becomes more sensitive when switching camera to BW mode. A color sensor has a color filter array implemented over photodiodes. This array is there no matter if you switch to BW or not. And so, each photodiode is still collecting only part of the spectrum, even in BW mode. The sensitivity rises only when IR filter is removed, because than more information is available to the sensor. Now, not only visible light is reaching the sensor, but also infrared light. Color filter array is not blocking IR light. The image is still in color. After IR filter removal the colors are incorrect and the whole image is tinted purple. Then the camera changes the image to BW (by software) to get rid of these false colors. A different story is monochrome sensor. Such sensor has no color filter array, so indeed it can collect more light, because a full visible spectrum is hitting each photodiode. In case of 4239, switching to BW doesn't do anything. You just have no colors. The noise level and image brightness remains the same.

And by the way, pozdrawiam kolegę z Polski

 

[sumguy]

I have removed the fixed IR filter on a cheap webcam and it is true that in normal room light and (even more) in outdoor daylight the colors are screwed up. But in an outdoor night-mode situation, there obviously can't be any natural IR light to screw up the colors (unless there are lots of incandescent lights I suppose). I would think that for ultimate low-light night color-mode you'd want the IR cut filter out of the way - I don't know what purpose the filter serves at night. I don't think that the typical LED light bulb generates much if any IR light the way the old incandescent ones did.

 

[sumguy]

BTW, the close-focus distance of the IPC-HFW4239T-ASE is 5.3 feet (1.6 m) with standard 3.6mm lens and double that with optional 6mm lens.

 

[tigerwillow1]

I remember reading somewhere that the IPC-HFW4239T-ASE full color camera does not have an IR cut filter, and the spec sheets that say so are on error. I was planning on getting one and using it with external IR until I read this. Since I don't have one of these cameras I wouldn't want you to assume this info is 100% accurate. Hopefully somebody who has one or has confirmed it for sure can respond.

 

[aristobrat]

@tigerwillow1, I think @wopi82 mentioned that in his big 4239 review.

I was unpleasantly surprised to find out this camera has no ICR. I knew it has no IR LEDs, but on Dahua’s page it is clearly stated IT HAS a removable IR filter.

I've just contacted Dahua Poland. They wrote, this is a mistake on a webpage. There is indeed no ICR in this model. They also told me, there will be another model of this cam, equipped with white LEDs.

 

[sumguy]

I can't believe the 4239 doesn't have an IR filter for daylight use. What super-sensitive CCD chip is there that doesn't need an IR filter for outdoor daytime use? Can they actually color-correct for that without an IR filter?

 

[tigerwillow1]

I can't believe the 4239 doesn't have an IR filter for daylight use. What super-sensitive CCD chip is there that doesn't need an IR filter for outdoor daytime use? Can they actually color-correct for that without an IR filter?

This is definitely above my pay grade, but I'd like to hear the answer from somebody that knows.

 

[fenderman]

I can't believe the 4239 doesn't have an IR filter for daylight use. What super-sensitive CCD chip is there that doesn't need an IR filter for outdoor daytime use? Can they actually color-correct for that without an IR filter?

It does have a filter. It is simply not mechanical - it is always on.

 

[sumguy]

> It does have a filter. It is simply not mechanical - it is always on.

So at night, using external IR lights will have no effect then. And the IR filter is making the camera less sensitive to ambient light then it otherwise would be without the filter.

 

[fenderman]

> It does have a filter. It is simply not mechanical - it is always on.

So at night, using external IR lights will have no effect then. And the IR filter is making the camera less sensitive to ambient light then it otherwise would be without the filter.

IR light will have no effect on it. Likely makes little to no difference otherwise they would have made it mechanical despite what other "experts" think or claim.