Help me fine tune setting up spotter cams for my SD4A425DB-HNY mini-PTZ

[Ri22o]

I bought a SD4A425DB-HNY mini-PTZ in Andy's last sale and have been going through all the trials and tribulations of getting it set up and functioning to auto-tracking to using spotter cams. It has been a long, mostly painful journey, a lot of which has been discussed via PMs with @wittaj , but I thought now that I hopefully have all of the kinks worked out that I should create a thread for others to reference.

At first I thought I had it all working. Spotters were spotting. Auto-track was tracking. Everything seemed to be happy. That's when I posted this video:


Not long after posting that video I started having all sorts of issues with losing presets, ONVIF and adding the camera back into BI, losing signal if I set a substream, all of it. Basically, the camera was happy by itself in the GUI but once BI got involved it lost its mind. After a lot of back and forth and trying different things I finally updated the firmware last night (which Andy was able to send quickly). I had some more small issues to sort out and work around, but I think it’s now back up and running as it should be.
And, now, the reason for this thread:

The next step in my PTZ journey is to fine tune the spotter cams to prevent as many false calls for PTZ presets as possible. My main reason for installing this camera is to better capture and ID people on the sidewalk outside of the range of my other cameras, so if the PTZ is unnecessarily looking one way and needs to be looking the other way, it’s not exactly helpful. It also creates an absurd amount of motion/alert clips to sort through. I plan to use a mix of IVS rules, CP.AI, and BI motion.

I do have spotters set up, but I am sure there is an ideal method for position, quantity, overlap, etc. I have found it is possible to have too much information trying to control where the PTZ should be looking. Since most people can probably struggle through on their own to get to this point, I wanted to try to help, and get help, with the above.

You can find @wittaj ’s PTZ/Spotter post here: Using Spotter Cameras to direct a PTZ where to look in Blue Iris and setting a spotter cam as a priority (plus added a link for NVRs)


How can I adjust my motion zones, implement IVS rules, or use CP.AI to get better results from my spotters? Ideally it would be nice for BI to accept specific/certain IVS rules from a camera and not treat them as an all-or-none trigger, but I can deal with my current rules spilling over into the PTZ, for now.

This is a general overview of the FOV for the spotter cameras. I carried the lines out to the extreme of how the image is presented in BI and am aware they are not necessarily capable of usable information at those distances:


This is Preset 1 with IVS tripwires:


These are the spotter cam motion views:



This is Preset 2 (default preset) with IVS tripwires:


These are the spotter cam motion views:


This is Preset 3 with IVS tripwires:


This is the spotter cam motion view:

 

[Ri22o]

Since posting, I have changed the IVS rules for 1 and 3 to be one way towards the house.

I have also turned CP.AI on for the spotter for preset 3. I don't know if I did something wrong, but the PTZ is still be commanded to that preset by only motion from the spotter with no people at all in the frame.

 

[bigredfish]

Way too much going on there and I haven't poured a bourbon yet tonight, but generally speaking, crossing/overlapping detection zones from multiple spotter cams is bound to cause some headaches. Remember that ANY spotter cam activation will pull the PTZ away from whatever it was doing even if its in the process of tracking. (at least with an NVR)
I'd also recommend not using MD nor SMD at all, way too many false alerts. Only use IVS tripwires and perhaps IVS intrusion zones.

 

[Ri22o]

Way too much going on there and I haven't poured a bourbon yet tonight, but generally speaking, crossing/overlapping detection zones from multiple spotter cams is bound to cause some headaches. Remember that ANY spotter cam activation will pull the PTZ away from whatever it was doing even if its in the process of tracking. (at least with an NVR)
I'd also recommend not using MD nor SMD at all, way too many false alerts. Only use IVS tripwires and perhaps IVS intrusion zones.

I'm not too far from having some bourbon, so maybe it will all make more sense in a little bit.

Are you saying the best practice is to only use one spotter cam per preset?
I tried my best to not have the BI motion zones overlap from any one preset to another, but it looks like I violated that with Preset 2 and 3.

I am using MD within BI and no SMD on the camera. Some level of motion is required otherwise the camera will switch to sub stream midtrack and/or BI will call it home.

 

[wittaj]

OK, so BI has an advantage over an NVR in that you can tell the PTZ that if it is in active mode during a PTZ preset to ignore any other spotter cam calls.

Personally, I think you should use the IVS and AI within the spotter camera to call the PTZ instead of relying on BI motion. Relying on BI motion, you will get too many false triggers and if you rely on BI AI to eliminate those false triggers to call the camera, there will be an inherent delay that by the time AI is processed, the person could be out of that preset view and then you miss it altogether.

And then use BI AI if you want anything else coming from those spotter cameras, like switching to mainstream for areas outside of the area being used for the spotter cam coverage or push notifications closer to the house, etc.

Personally, I would set up 3 spotter cams and I think you need to spread the distance between them, even if that means adding a camera or adjusting the current field of view.

Spotter 1 will move and catch anybody as they are approaching your house from either side of the street.

Spotter 2 will move and catch anybody as they are approaching your house from either side of the street.

For these two spots, you want them on your PTZ for as long as possible in order to increase that opportunity for a clean capture. Your current setup doesn't give the PTZ long enough time to get that clean capture before it would be a side image or back of head.

For both of these, you have BI not accept another spotter request if those two PTZ presets are in action.

Spotter 3 will allow you to pickup the person again if they were to stop anywhere between Spotter 1 and Spotter 2 because if they stop long enough, it will go back to the original preset and then you miss them right in front of your house or on your property.



In the above scenario, you would then park the PTZ looking down your driveway and then it is called to Spotter 1 or 2.

An alternative would be to park the PTZ looking towards either Spotter 1 or Spotter 2 (if one of them struggles picking up people at night due to light, having the PTZ always camped out that way can pick them up)

 

[bigredfish]

OK, so BI has an advantage over an NVR in that you can tell the PTZ that if it is in active mode during a PTZ preset to ignore any other spotter cam calls.

Personally, I think you should use the IVS and AI within the spotter camera to call the PTZ instead of relying on BI motion. Relying on BI motion, you will get too many false triggers and if you rely on BI AI to eliminate those false triggers to call the camera, there will be an inherent delay that by the time AI is processed, the person could be out of that preset view and then you miss it altogether.

And then use BI AI if you want anything else coming from those spotter cameras, like switching to mainstream for areas outside of the area being used for the spotter cam coverage or push notifications closer to the house, etc.

Personally, I would set up 3 spotter cams and I think you need to spread the distance between them, even if that means adding a camera or adjusting the current field of view.

Spotter 1 will move and catch anybody as they are approaching your house from either side of the street.

Spotter 2 will move and catch anybody as they are approaching your house from either side of the street.

For these two spots, you want them on your PTZ for as long as possible in order to increase that opportunity for a clean capture. Your current setup doesn't give the PTZ long enough time to get that clean capture before it would be a side image or back of head.

For both of these, you have BI not accept another spotter request if those two PTZ presets are in action.

Spotter 3 will allow you to pickup the person again if they were to stop anywhere between Spotter 1 and Spotter 2 because if they stop long enough, it will go back to the original preset and then you miss them right in front of your house or on your property.

View attachment 158880

In the above scenario, you would then park the PTZ looking down your driveway and then it is called to Spotter 1 or 2.

An alternative would be to park the PTZ looking towards either Spotter 1 or Spotter 2 (if one of them struggles picking up people at night due to light, having the PTZ always camped out that way can pick them up)

Not being a BI user I wasnt aware of the tracking in progress override. Thanks.

 

[Ri22o]

OK, so BI has an advantage over an NVR in that you can tell the PTZ that if it is in active mode during a PTZ preset to ignore any other spotter cam calls.

Personally, I think you should use the IVS and AI within the spotter camera to call the PTZ instead of relying on BI motion. Relying on BI motion, you will get too many false triggers and if you rely on BI AI to eliminate those false triggers to call the camera, there will be an inherent delay that by the time AI is processed, the person could be out of that preset view and then you miss it altogether.

And then use BI AI if you want anything else coming from those spotter cameras, like switching to mainstream for areas outside of the area being used for the spotter cam coverage or push notifications closer to the house, etc.

Personally, I would set up 3 spotter cams and I think you need to spread the distance between them, even if that means adding a camera or adjusting the current field of view.

Spotter 1 will move and catch anybody as they are approaching your house from either side of the street.

Spotter 2 will move and catch anybody as they are approaching your house from either side of the street.

For these two spots, you want them on your PTZ for as long as possible in order to increase that opportunity for a clean capture. Your current setup doesn't give the PTZ long enough time to get that clean capture before it would be a side image or back of head.

For both of these, you have BI not accept another spotter request if those two PTZ presets are in action.

Spotter 3 will allow you to pickup the person again if they were to stop anywhere between Spotter 1 and Spotter 2 because if they stop long enough, it will go back to the original preset and then you miss them right in front of your house or on your property.

View attachment 158880

In the above scenario, you would then park the PTZ looking down your driveway and then it is called to Spotter 1 or 2.

An alternative would be to park the PTZ looking towards either Spotter 1 or Spotter 2 (if one of them struggles picking up people at night due to light, having the PTZ always camped out that way can pick them up)

Just to confirm, the spotter cams commanding the PTZ should only use IVS and have no motion triggers set up in BI and another instance of the spotter cam should use BI AI to trigger another camera to switch to main stream, if desired.

Spreading the distance between the spotting zones makes sense, and is something I am realizing needs to be done.

Do spotter cams need to record?

With your suggestions, I don't think any of my current views are adequate to reliably hit those zones. My 4K-X over the driveway for Zone 2, maybe, but there will eventually be trees in the way for the near side, and this goes for probably any position I could mount a camera on my house. I also do not have a lot of usable light that far away in those directions. I might be able to mount something next to the camera below, but that's likely the only location.

I have this one that could be adjusted up and used for Zone 3, but if the PTZ parks over the driveway, do I need a spotter cam for that area? Or is this spotter cam's purpose to call the PTZ back before the 1 minute timeout to return and park (in the event it lost tracking and needs to be triggered again)?


These are the PTZ presets at night with my current settings. 1 and 3 would be adjusted further down the street to match the spotter zones.


This is Preset 1 pointed to your Zone 1:


For Zone 1 I still have ethernet available in this location.


For reference, these are my preliminary PTZ settings.

 

[wittaj]

It depends on what else the spotter cam is being used for.

If the sole purpose of the spotter cam is to spot for the PTZ, then no real reason to record it if you don't want to if it isn't providing any other useful information other than detect or observe capabilities that would be obtained by your other cameras.

But I know you are having the camera serve double duty, so here is what I mean about using the camera AI for spotter cam duty, and then BI motion with AI for other uses.

I know from your other thread that this camera is to get IDENTIFY for people walking up to your house from this direction, so you probably have IVS rule for that. And now you have BI motion for the spotter cam. I suggest you flip that and make the IVS be the trigger for the PTZ and then use the BI motion with AI to capture the other movements in the field of view.

Further, in your BI motion setup, if the perp is walking down the middle of the street, they would not trigger the PTZ.




And yeah, trees can impact the distance between the spotter cams BUT the tracking in this camera does so well that it will anticipate the movement when someone gets behind a tree and will track past it and probably catch back up to them.

Yeah the spotter 3 is simply to point that PTZ back to the center area if the PTZ lost tracking from 1 or 2.

I would consider zooming in more on those preset areas. Help give the PTZ a headstart in zooming in. I would lower IRIS to maybe 60 or so - a 100 iris will have a very shallow depth of focus. You could probably up the gain to 60 or so.

 

[Ri22o]

For standard duty that view is actually all motion with no IVS, so adding an IVS trigger for the spotter would not be an issue.

I have the spotters not detect motion in the road because it would command for every car that drove by. If I switch to IVS this obviously would not be an issue.

Do you think the view above and the 4K-X over the driveway are sufficient to reach the distances you are suggesting for the spotter zones? Will IVS reliably trigger that far away? My main concern is with the above view at night, but I suppose the PTZ could be scheduled to be looking that direction. The 3.6mm 4K-X might be able to get reliable triggers that far away.

 

[wittaj]

Yeah that makes it an easier switch for you then!

The B/W might be a little more difficult to get IVS triggers at that distance unless you pointed the cam up a bit to get more IR out that way or added a IR blaster.

I think the 4K/X could probably trigger at that distance.

Only way to know for sure is give it a try.

And this could be the case where maybe you have the PTZ looking down the driveway during the day, but at night point it up to the area of the B/W to help aid in capturing folks coming from that direction.

 

[Ri22o]

I am pretty sure IR is off for that camera since I have a 20w Tendelux flood on the second floor soffit.

If I were to use the non-used ethernet on the second floor soffit (in my response above), what would be a good, spotter-use-only camera for that location?
I have some additional, unused Tendelux 20w emitters. Would another of these help, if pointed appropriately, or should I look for more of a spot?

This is the view after making some yet-to-be-qualified adjustments.

 

[wittaj]

Oh I like that! I think that diagonal between the trees would catch most coming down either sidewalk or the street. And I think that tree will stay such a size that the PTZ will still track thru it.

If you plan to use as a spotter cam only and not worried about picture quality, then go with a cheap 2MP with AI. Heck some people have even said, dare I say, that reolink AI is really good - night video sucks, but it could still AI a person people have said LOL.

 

[Ri22o]

I think I am happy to stay away from Reolink just based on everything I have read here.

I will get the IVS rules set up tomorrow when it's easier to see everything in the daylight, and see how it goes.

I didn't see many offerings for 2mp AI cams on Amazon. Unless there is a better, cheaper option for a spotter only cam then my thought was a 3.6mm IPC-T2431T-AS, if it came to it. Ideally something varifocal or higher than 3.6mm would be better, but it's likely getting cost prohibitive at that point.

**Edit: I thought the 2431 was 2mp.

 

[wittaj]

Yeah this would be a decent cheaper 2MP, but the cost spread just isn't large enough that do you just go with the 5442

But if you could find a cheaper Amcrest with AI, you could go with that as well. You can run the shutter a lot slower since it is just spotter cam to let more light in and still trigger

https://www.amazon.com/Loryta-IPC-T3241T-ZAS-Vari-Focal-Eyeball-Network/dp/B082XR73CC/ref=sr_1_32?imprToken=eNnu.Pmf5hsW5hcTVECAQg&linkCode=w61&m=A329YQ83EBQGJF&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&qid=1680408379&redirect=true&s=merchant-items&slotNum=0&sr=1-32

 

[Ri22o]

Part of the point of the PTZ was to keep from getting more 5442s, haha. I am not seeing much for Amcrest offerings.

I will make some adjustments tomorrow during the day time and see if what I have will work.

 

[Ri22o]

Ok, working on one zone at a time here. This is what I have changed this morning.

I have made no changes to the BI settings for the PTZ. Do I need to make any changes?

Spotter cam settings:


Spotter cam IVS:


PTZ Preset and IVS:

 

[Ri22o]

I also adjusted the IVS for the PTZ in the parked position since it is easy enough to change.

Tripwires are A<>B and Intrusion Box is Crosses and Inside.

 

[Ri22o]

I had someone approach from the right and the camera did not get commanded to that preset with the IVS rules. I did not see them until they showed on the left preset, and then it was too late. Unfortunately I do not have an SD card in that spotter camera yet to review the IVS history, but it will within the next 10 minutes. I assume it's something in BI.

 

[wittaj]

Without the SD Card in, you don't know for sure which one.

Is your spotter cam showing being triggered in the BI log?

 

[Ri22o]

This is what I have for around 10:20 on Sidewalk.