I feel like I need to know rocket science to make a decision

[cheshire_cat]

Hey everyone!

Like a lot of people here, I started with a simple desire to install a few cameras but fell down the rabbit hole and now my brain is fried with all the information and opinions out there. I'd really appreciate your expertise here..

So here is the deal: I'm moving into a new construction house (all pre-wired) and would like to install at least 3 cameras. The ideal picture in my head is this: 3 cameras (1 over the garage door overseeing the driveway and perimeter), 1 over the front door and 1 in the backyard. After doing some research, I decided to go with PoE + NVR. Eventually, I'd like to add a doorbell to the ecosystem and start using Blue Iris and all the cool features it offers. Also, I want to put up a tablet on the wall so that I can display all the cameras on it + use it as a IoT hub in the future when I add more devices. The idea I got from this post: but that would be waay down the road. For now, I'm fine using a phone app to view the feed.

Anyway.. I've been reading about different setups for 2 weeks and this morning I almost bought a 4cameras+NVR bundle from Reolink but by accident came across this forum and, apparently, Reolink is considered pond scum and I almost wasted $440 on some cheap crap so I feel completely lost now.. I'd really appreciate you, local experts, to chime in and recommend something that wouldn't break my bank. Hoping to get something within $500-$600 if possible at all.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Rob2020]

Read the cliff notes in the wiki.

You mention using a NVR and later adding Blue Iris, why not just use Blue Iris? I recognize you are still figuring this all out so you may not have a good understanding of the options.

I came here over a year ago (after ruling out all the wifi/Arlo/Blink/Reolink crap) set on buying HIK and a NVR.

After lots of research and feedback, ended up with Dahua (Andy) and Blue Iris.

If I could do it again and start from scratch I would do exactly the same, BI and Dahua, that says a lot.

 

[cheshire_cat]

Read the cliff notes in the wiki.

You mention using a NVR and later adding Blue Iris, why not just use Blue Iris? I recognize you are still figuring this all out so you may not have a good understanding of the options.

I came here over a year ago (ruled out all the wifi/Arlo/Blin/Reolink crap) set on buying HIK and a NVR.

After lots of research and feedback, ended up with Dahua (Andy) and Blue Iris.

If I could do it again and start from scratch I would do exactly the same, BI and Dahua, that says a lot.

I thought Blue Iris was software that goes on top of having an NVR :| I guess I'm still so green I got it all mixed up.

 

[Rob2020]

NVRs have their own built in software, some better than others, most likely proprietary, a dahua NVR runs Dahua cams.

Blue Iris runs on a PC.

link to cliff notes

 

[wittaj]

Welcome!

A lot more specifics are needed - do you want to IDENTIFY or just observe. What is the primary purpose, how high will the cameras be installed, etc.

If you simply go with 3 new cameras that are 2.8mm fixed lens that are popular in the box kits, you will probably be disappointed as well because you won't read plates and you won't IDENTIFY anyone beyond 10-15 feet of the camera.

You need to identify the areas you want to cover and pick a camera designed to cover that distance. In some instances, it may be a 2MP or 4MP that is the right camera. DO NOT CHASE MP!!!

It is why we recommend to purchase one good varifocal and test it at all the proposed locations day and night to figure out the correct focal lengths and cams.

A few other tips....It is simple LOL do not chase MP - do not buy a 4MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/1.8" sensor. Do not buy a 2MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/2.8" sensor. Do not buy a 4K (8MP) camera on anything smaller than a 1/1.2" sensor. Unfortunately, most 4k (8MP) cams are on the same sensor as a 2MP and thus the 2MP will kick its butt all night long as the 4k will need 4 times the light than the 2MP... 4k will do very poor at night unless you have stadium quality lighting (well a lot of lighting LOL).

To identify someone with the wide-angle 2.8mm lens that most people opt for (and what are popular in the box kits), someone would have to be within 13 feet of the camera to IDENTIFY them, but realistically within 10 feet after you dial it in to your settings.

My neighbor was bragging to me how he only needed his four 2.8mm fixed lens 4k cams to see his entire property and the street and his whole backyard. His car was sitting in the driveway practically touching the garage door and his video quality was useless to ID the perp not even 10 feet away. Meanwhile my 2MP varifocal optically zoomed 60 feet away to the public sidewalk provided the money shot to the police to get my neighbors all their stuff back. Nobody else had video that could provide anything useful, other than what time this motion blur ghost was at their car.

Here are my general distance recommendations, but switch out the Dahua 5442 series camera to the equivalent 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor or equivalent Hikvision works as well.

• 5442 fixed lens 2.8mm or the 4K/X - anything within 10 feet of camera OR as an overview camera
• 5442 ZE - varifocal - distances up to 40-50 feet (personally I wouldn't go past the 30 foot range but I like things closer)
• 5442 Z4E - anything up to 80-100 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 60 feet but I like things closer)
• 5241-Z12E - anything from 80 feet to almost 200 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 150 feet because I like things closer)
• 5241-Z12E - for a license plate cam that you would angle up the street to get plates up to about 175 feet away, or up to 220 with additional IR.
• 49225 PTZ - great auto-track PTZ and in conjunction with an NVR or Blue Iris and the cameras above that you can use as spotter cams to point the PTZ to the correct location to compliment the fixed cams.

You need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A wide angle 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who.

One camera cannot be the be all, see all. Each one is selected for covering a specific area. Most of us here have different brands and types, from fixed cams, to varifocals, to PTZs, each one selected for it's primary purpose and to utilize the strength of that particular camera.

So you will need to identify the distance the camera would be from the activities you want to IDENTIFY on and purchase the correct camera for that distance as an optical zoom.

If you want to see things far away, you need optical zoom, digital zoom only works in the movies and TV...And the optical zoom is done real time - for a varifocal it is a set it and forget it. You cannot go to recorded video and optically zoom in later, at that point it is digital zoom, and the sensors on these cameras are so small which is why digital zoom doesn't work very well after the fact.

 

[cheshire_cat]

NVRs have their own built in software, some better than others, most likely proprietary, a dahua NVR runs Dahua cams.

Blue Iris runs on a PC.

link to cliff notes

What do you think about this set?

amcrest.com" data-pending="false">

Amcrest 5MP Security System 8CH PoE NVR 4x 5MP Bullet PoE Cameras 2TB

AMCREST MODEL: NV4108E-IP5M-B1186EW4-2TB NVR FEATURES : Extraordinary Quality: Supports 8-Channel 1080p/3MP/4MP/5MP/8MP/4K Resolution Records 8-Channels @ 1080p/3MP/4MP/5MP/8MP/4K & Playback 8-Channel @1080p(30fps)/4-Channel @4MP(30fps)/2-Channel @4K(30fps) Record in Widescreen, Quick Access...

amcrest.com

 

[wittaj]

You still need to answer the questions we asked:

What is the primary goal or purpose of your system?

Do you want to be able to IDENTIFY or OBSERVE what is going on?

How high do you plan to install these?

Depending on your answers, this may or may not be the right system.

 

[cheshire_cat]

You still need to answer the questions we asked:

What is the primary goal or purpose of your system?

Do you want to be able to IDENTIFY or OBSERVE what is going on?

How high do you plan to install these?

Depending on your answers, this may or may not be the right system.

What is the primary goal or purpose of your system?

In my mind, it is deterrent + security. If something fishy going around my house, in the backyard, on my driveway - I'd like to be able to see it from my phone if I'm away. Which is why I'm thinking I'm going to use BI down the road

Do you want to be able to IDENTIFY or OBSERVE what is going on?

- I guess to observe. I only want to identify when people get to the door which is why I want to install a camera doorbell later. Other than that, I don't see why I'd need to identify people or license plates

How high do you plan to install these?

I have a 2-story home but I plan to install all cameras at the top of the first story level. 1 over my garage door, 1 above in a corner above the front door and one above the door in the backyard. That's about it..

 

[wittaj]

For your purposes, then that will be an adequate system... Maybe it ends up being sufficient for you long term, or maybe like most of us, it the beginning of our learning process that only occurs after something happens and our system sucked at getting what the police need.

At some point, most of us have something happen that we wish our box kit system captured. Nothing worse than knowing what time something happened, but not being able to provide the police with anything else to go by. Not every perp is going to come to your front door. What if they go to the back window? What if a car is parked on the driveway and they come up the car from the opposite side of the camera?

The cameras in this box kit are the typical too many MP on the smaller sensor. This sensor size works well for 2MP. At 5MP, someone will have to be less than 10 feet from the camera to have half a chance of getting an IDENTIFY image.

I started with the four 2.8mm camera box kit system and I was like "I can place one on each corner of the house and see my whole property and the whole neighborhood." A newbie loves the wide angle "I can see the whole neighborhood" of the 2.8mm fixed wide angle lens. I LOVED IT WHEN I PUT IT UP. I could see everything that would be blocked looking out the windows.

It is easy to get lured in to thinking the wide angle "see the whole neighborhood" because you are watching it and you see a neighbor go by and you are like "Look at that I can tell that is Heather out walking." and "Yeah I can tell our neighbor 4 down just passed by". Or you watch back the video of you walking around and are like "yeah I can tell that is me".

Little do we realize how much WE can identify a known person just by hair style, clothing, walking pace, gait, etc.

Then one day the door checker comes by. Total stranger. Totally useless video other than what time the door checking happened.

Then you realize that this wide-angle see the whole neighborhood comes at a cost and that cost is not being able to IDENTIFY who did it. These 2.8mm wide angle cameras are great overview cameras or to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet of the camera. At 40 feet out you need a different camera.

And like most, I stuck these wide angle cameras on the 2nd story to be able to see even more, which then means any IDENTIFY distance is lost vertically. Someone needs to be within 10-13 feet to identify someone with a 2.8mm lens. A camera placed 16-20 feet up means the entire IDENTIFY is lost in the vertical direction. You will get a good shot at the top of the head and hat though LOL.

So then we start adding more cameras and varifocal cameras so that we can optically zoom in to pinch points and other areas of interest to get the clean IDENTIFY captures of someone. While the varifocals are great at helping to identify at a distance, they come at a cost of a reduced field of view, just like the wide-angles are great at seeing a wide area, but they come at the expense of IDENTIFY at distance.

I just wanted you to be aware of the limitations of the 2.8mm box kit system. If it is only to be able to observe, then the system is fine. Identify, not so much. Now it is up to you to decide if that meets your short and long term needs.

 

[cheshire_cat]

For your purposes, then that will be an adequate system... Maybe it ends up being sufficient for you long term, or maybe like most of us, it the beginning of our learning process that only occurs after something happens and our system sucked at getting what the police need.

At some point, most of us have something happen that we wish our box kit system captured. Nothing worse than knowing what time something happened, but not being able to provide the police with anything else to go by. Not every perp is going to come to your front door. What if they go to the back window? What if a car is parked on the driveway and they come up the car from the opposite side of the camera?

The cameras in this box kit are the typical too many MP on the smaller sensor. This sensor size works well for 2MP. At 5MP, someone will have to be less than 10 feet from the camera to have half a chance of getting an IDENTIFY image.

I started with the four 2.8mm camera box kit system and I was like "I can place one on each corner of the house and see my whole property and the whole neighborhood." A newbie loves the wide angle "I can see the whole neighborhood" of the 2.8mm fixed wide angle lens. I LOVED IT WHEN I PUT IT UP. I could see everything that would be blocked looking out the windows.

It is easy to get lured in to thinking the wide angle "see the whole neighborhood" because you are watching it and you see a neighbor go by and you are like "Look at that I can tell that is Heather out walking." and "Yeah I can tell our neighbor 4 down just passed by". Or you watch back the video of you walking around and are like "yeah I can tell that is me".

Little do we realize how much WE can identify a known person just by hair style, clothing, walking pace, gait, etc.

Then one day the door checker comes by. Total stranger. Totally useless video other than what time the door checking happened.

Then you realize that this wide-angle see the whole neighborhood comes at a cost and that cost is not being able to IDENTIFY who did it. These 2.8mm wide angle cameras are great overview cameras or to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet of the camera. At 40 feet out you need a different camera.

And like most, I stuck these wide angle cameras on the 2nd story to be able to see even more, which then means any IDENTIFY distance is lost vertically. Someone needs to be within 10-13 feet to identify someone with a 2.8mm lens. A camera placed 16-20 feet up means the entire IDENTIFY is lost in the vertical direction. You will get a good shot at the top of the head and hat though LOL.

So then we start adding more cameras and varifocal cameras so that we can optically zoom in to pinch points and other areas of interest to get the clean IDENTIFY captures of someone. While the varifocals are great at helping to identify at a distance, they come at a cost of a reduced field of view, just like the wide-angles are great at seeing a wide area, but they come at the expense of IDENTIFY at distance.

I just wanted you to be aware of the limitations of the 2.8mm box kit system. If it is only to be able to observe, then the system is fine. Identify, not so much. Now it is up to you to decide if that meets your short and long term needs.

Thanks a lot for the comment! Will I be able to use BI with this system?

Also, I have seen quite a number of comments saying that amcrest is very intrusive and tries to establish a whole lot of internet connections so people straight up cut off all outbound traffic. Is this something I need to worry about? Will it still let me view my cameras from the phone?

 

[ccssid]

here is another thread with some added insight on your questions: Recommendations for home video security system

 

[wittaj]

Thanks a lot for the comment! Will I be able to use BI with this system?

Also, I have seen quite a number of comments saying that amcrest is very intrusive and tries to establish a whole lot of internet connections so people straight up cut off all outbound traffic. Is this something I need to worry about? Will it still let me view my cameras from the phone?

Yes, you can always use the cameras later for BI if you go that route. You can either hook them to a POE switch and then into the computer or you can keep the NVR and bring the cameras from the NVR into the router.

A general rule of thumb is to keep all cameras off the internet. The NVR isolates the cameras from the internet. But the NVR is still talking to the internet.

Most here go with OpenVPN or another type of VPN service that is free that you host. Not the paid VPN that hides your IP. You hosting the VPN puts you back onto your system.

But lets get the system and then worry about that down the road. If you need to buy a router as part of this process, then go with an Asus router as they have OpenVPN built in.

 

[Steve.L]

<snip>
After lots of research and feedback, ended up with Dahua (Andy) and Blue Iris.
If I could do it again and start from scratch I would do exactly the same, BI and Dahua, that says a lot.

This^^^ all day long.

 

[Rob2020]

What do you think about this set?

amcrest.com" data-pending="false">

Amcrest 5MP Security System 8CH PoE NVR 4x 5MP Bullet PoE Cameras 2TB

AMCREST MODEL: NV4108E-IP5M-B1186EW4-2TB NVR FEATURES : Extraordinary Quality: Supports 8-Channel 1080p/3MP/4MP/5MP/8MP/4K Resolution Records 8-Channels @ 1080p/3MP/4MP/5MP/8MP/4K & Playback 8-Channel @1080p(30fps)/4-Channel @4MP(30fps)/2-Channel @4K(30fps) Record in Widescreen, Quick Access...

amcrest.com

The problem with bundled sets is it is a one size fits all solution, want a different focal length, you get what you get, want a different (Turret, wedge, dome) appearance, nope, get what you get, want better night vision at expense of resolution, nope. I think you see my point.

While better than Reolink (and a step down from Dahua) why settle when a little research gets you a system that fits your needs.

Here is a personal example, I started with a Dahua 2MP Varifocal to get a feel of focal lengths (which was suggested here). I then bought a Dahua 4MP 5442 in 3.6, I found out through trial and error I can run it in full color (LED street lights) but the focal length was too short to get a good shot of faces at the sidewalk. I then bought a Dahua 4239 Bullet in a 6MM focal length with F1.0 which gave me even lower light capability and a longer focal length for better identification. This was all learned from asking and reading opinions and trial and error.

 

[cheshire_cat]

The problem with bundled sets is it is a one size fits all solution, want a different focal length, you get what you get, want a different (Turret, wedge, dome) appearance, nope, get what you get, want better night vision at expense of resolution, nope. I think you see my point.

While better than Reolink (and a step down from Dahua) why settle when a little research gets you a system that fits your needs.

Here is a personal example, I started with a Dahua 2MP Varifocal to get a feel of focal lengths (which was suggested here). I then bought a Dahua 4MP 5442 in 3.6, I found out through trial and error I can run it in full color (LED street lights) but the focal length was too short to get a good shot of faces at the sidewalk. I then bought a Dahua 4239 Bullet in a 6MM focal length with F1.0 which gave me even lower light capability and a longer focal length for better identification. This was all learned from asking and reading opinions and trial and error.

Great point. The problem is there are so many opinions, both positive and negative, for each camera that I get very frustrated about making a decision. While I totally agree with everything you said, I think the best case scenario for me right now would be to start with al least SOMETHING (like the bundle I mentioned) and then slowly learn about different features while having a security set in place. Otherwise, I'll take years to come up with something that would perfectly satisfy my needs

 

[cheshire_cat]

This^^^ all day long.

by the way, who is Andy?

 

[sebastiantombs]

Andy is the go to guy for Dahua cameras -

Andy
IPCT Thread

EmpireTech Andy

Dahua products

ipcamtalk.com

Andy's Store

Amazon.com

King Security/EmpireTech Store

Amazon.com

Email
Andy Wang kingsecurity2014@163.com

 

[samplenhold]

Otherwise, I'll take years to come up with something that would perfectly satisfy my needs

Don't sell yourself so short. This is really not that hard. But do not bite off more than you can chew at one time.

Like others here, I started out with some cheap WIFI cams that did not give me adequate coverage of outside my home. They were great inside to keep an eye on the dogs though. I found this forum and took the advice of several folks here that said:
1. read the Cliff Notes and the WIKI
2. Think about what you are trying to achieve with your system. Think about your perimeter and what perps would do there. Where should you start?
3. Buy one good varifocal cam, set it on a test rig, and learn what cams can do. Test your initial areas with that rig. Walk it day and night and see what you look like. Are you getting the video that could be used by LE in a court of law?

I started out this way. Learned quite a lot quickly. Asked questions when I needed to. Covered my driveway with two cams and then my back yard and the front door. Those purchases were done in three separate purchases over the course of two months. Those setups were installed as the cams came in and that initial plan was completed in about three months. Could have been quicker, but life got in the way. The rest of my system evolved over time.

I bought all my cams from Andy. All Dahua.

 

[cheshire_cat]

Thanks for the word of encouragement! I totally agree with you and I think that I'm also going to start low and slow, and work my way up to better solutions along with software additions such as BI. The cliff notes are very useful. I'm halfway through the notes and already feel less clueless than I did this morning

 

[mcapeed]

I came to this sight about 18 months ago to get educated just like you. I listened to and followed what the knowledgeable members were saying. All my stuff still
works and has been zero maintenance.

Buy a DVR or BI software and start with one camera as suggested. Let it evolve from there. You will spend ( waste) less money this way and be happier with the results.

Don’t buy the box store crap. Use Andy on Amazon or direct to his Aliexpress site. He will take good care of you. May be better to use Amazon as overseas shipping could be unpredictable in these times.


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