There were glitches in the recording too, I will check and download some. Like skipping frames. Let me see if I can download some this weekend. Definitely more glitches than 4MP version I replaced. Still have 4x of the 4MP that I never had any issues with
IPC-HDW5831R-ZE (2018) vs DH-IPC-HDW5842T-ZE-S2 (2021) - 2018 camera wins in image quality
- Thread starter runraid
- Start date
I was talking about Runraid who confirmed he only saw it on Live View not recordings. In your case which FW are you running and what did you record to ? Definitely worth checking FW version and recording platform, medium and bitrate. Have not seen any glitches or pauses etc in recorded footage in my testing. Feel free to DM me and I can take a look directly if you like.
I will send you DM, I am recording on Dahua NVR, using CBR at 8Mbits rate. Max resolution.
I have over a dozen cams of all types (all Dahua). This is the only cam I own that does this while live streaming.
I'm really starting to think that for a general purpose, high quality cam, the IPC-HDW5831R-ZE (2018) cannot be beat with any other cam on the market less than $500. Of all the cams I have, the new and old, this 2018 model is the best all around cam I've seen.
I"m just going to order like 10 of these 2018 models incase they go out of stock. I will use these 2021 models in areas that are not as important.
I'm really starting to think that for a general purpose, high quality cam, the IPC-HDW5831R-ZE (2018) cannot be beat with any other cam on the market less than $500. Of all the cams I have, the new and old, this 2018 model is the best all around cam I've seen.
I"m just going to order like 10 of these 2018 models incase they go out of stock. I will use these 2021 models in areas that are not as important.
Thanks for sharing, the Color4K-X is awsome, all other cams are working very well too. I have many clients use our cams for years, and keep updating on the firmware, recently they start update the cams to the latest new series. The new tech make the pics working great.
Here has one talking about the old HDW5231R-ZE and the latest new IPC-T5442T-ZE.
ipcamtalk.com
Here has one talking about the old HDW5231R-ZE and the latest new IPC-T5442T-ZE.
Did a quick IR test tonight with 3 different IR illuminators
This test was conducted with a Dahua IPC-T5442T-ZE from Andy. Default settings and running Andy's firmware. All three IR illuminators are a big improvement over the camera IR. Which one do you like the best? These brand new model Tendelux IR illuminators I bought on Amazon and received today...
On the 2021, I started streaming on substream 2 at 1080p at with these settings... still very choppy ...
Should I go lower?
Here's the settings on my 2018 cam which streams fine... biggest difference is the FPS. I'll try lowering that on my 2021
Should I go lower?
Here's the settings on my 2018 cam which streams fine... biggest difference is the FPS. I'll try lowering that on my 2021
Yes FPS can make a big difference.
No reason to run more than 15FPS, and many us have cams running at 10 to 12 FPS. Movies for the big screen are shot at 24FPS, so I do not think we need that for these cameras LOL. The goal is to get a clean image, not smooth motion.
Keep in mind that these type of cameras, although are spec'd and capable of these various parameters, real world testing by many of us shows if you try to run these units at higher FPS and higher bitrates than needed that you will max out the CPU in the unit and then it bugs out just long enough that you miss something or video is choppy or pixelated or you get lost signals. My car is rated for 6,000RPM redline, but I am not gonna run it in 3rd gear on the highway at 6,000RPM...same with these types of units - gotta keep them under rated capacity. Some may do better than others, but trying to use the rated "spec" of every option available is usually not going to work well, either with a car or a camera or NVR.
Look at all the threads where people came here with a jitter in the video or video dropping signal or IVS missing motion or the SD card doesn't overwrite and they were running 30FPS and when people tell them to drop the FPS and they dropped the FPS to 15FPS the camera became stable and they could actual freeze frame the image to get a clean capture. The goal of these cameras are to capture a perp, not capture smooth motion. When we see the news, are they showing the video or a freeze frame screen shot? Nobody cares if it isn't butter smooth...getting the features to make an ID is the important factor. As always, YMMV...
Further, these types of cameras are not GoPro or Hollywood type cameras that offer slow-mo capabilities and other features. They "offer" 30FPS and 60FPS to appease the general public that thinks that is what they need, but you will not find many of us here running more than 15 FPS; and movies are shot at 24 FPS, so anything above that is a waste of storage space for what these cameras are used for. If 24 FPS works for the big screen, I think 15 FPS is more than enough for phones and tablets and most monitors LOL. Many of my cameras are running at 12FPS.
In fact, many times if a CPU is maxing out, if it doesn't drop signal, then it will adhere to the FPS but then slow the shutter down to try to not max the CPU, which then produces a smooth blurry image..that is the video my neighbor gets who insists on running 60FPS. He gets smooth walking people but you can't freeze frame it cause every frame is a blur, meanwhile my 12FPS gets the clean freeze frame. Shutter speed is more important the FPS. We both run the same shutter speed by the way, but his camera CPU is maxing out and something gotta give when you push it that hard.
And I think your point earlier about the chip shortage probably affecting these are true. They might not have as much CPU processing capacity as pre-covid models.
No reason to run more than 15FPS, and many us have cams running at 10 to 12 FPS. Movies for the big screen are shot at 24FPS, so I do not think we need that for these cameras LOL. The goal is to get a clean image, not smooth motion.
Keep in mind that these type of cameras, although are spec'd and capable of these various parameters, real world testing by many of us shows if you try to run these units at higher FPS and higher bitrates than needed that you will max out the CPU in the unit and then it bugs out just long enough that you miss something or video is choppy or pixelated or you get lost signals. My car is rated for 6,000RPM redline, but I am not gonna run it in 3rd gear on the highway at 6,000RPM...same with these types of units - gotta keep them under rated capacity. Some may do better than others, but trying to use the rated "spec" of every option available is usually not going to work well, either with a car or a camera or NVR.
Look at all the threads where people came here with a jitter in the video or video dropping signal or IVS missing motion or the SD card doesn't overwrite and they were running 30FPS and when people tell them to drop the FPS and they dropped the FPS to 15FPS the camera became stable and they could actual freeze frame the image to get a clean capture. The goal of these cameras are to capture a perp, not capture smooth motion. When we see the news, are they showing the video or a freeze frame screen shot? Nobody cares if it isn't butter smooth...getting the features to make an ID is the important factor. As always, YMMV...
Further, these types of cameras are not GoPro or Hollywood type cameras that offer slow-mo capabilities and other features. They "offer" 30FPS and 60FPS to appease the general public that thinks that is what they need, but you will not find many of us here running more than 15 FPS; and movies are shot at 24 FPS, so anything above that is a waste of storage space for what these cameras are used for. If 24 FPS works for the big screen, I think 15 FPS is more than enough for phones and tablets and most monitors LOL. Many of my cameras are running at 12FPS.
In fact, many times if a CPU is maxing out, if it doesn't drop signal, then it will adhere to the FPS but then slow the shutter down to try to not max the CPU, which then produces a smooth blurry image..that is the video my neighbor gets who insists on running 60FPS. He gets smooth walking people but you can't freeze frame it cause every frame is a blur, meanwhile my 12FPS gets the clean freeze frame. Shutter speed is more important the FPS. We both run the same shutter speed by the way, but his camera CPU is maxing out and something gotta give when you push it that hard.
And I think your point earlier about the chip shortage probably affecting these are true. They might not have as much CPU processing capacity as pre-covid models.
FPS will make a difference and you can lower bitrate BUT remember you want to get to the happy medium of quality of the 4K image vs setting. You also want to keep in mind that FPS can and should be dialed to the target situation you are setting up for. This would be part of what I would be doing on a follow up session. So for example in high speed cap environments, fast moving vehicles and or targets with little time on screen then a mix of fast exposure (in the case of vehicles) + higher FPS is a good option as it will potentially give you more frames to choose from in target identification. Another use case is when you are passing streams through processing platforms such as ANPR etc. However as I mention here this is and should be dialed per target and FOV requirement as part of the final setup. I'll post some other thoughts here in a minute to regarding what you reported above
RunRaid, said I was going to post some other thoughts in efforts to help, well its a long post incoming 
Some questions embedded as well
First up, certainly not seen any issues with live view stuttering across the number of 5842s I’ve tested in both turret and bullet cam. If issues have been seen with cams (of any range) over the years then generally (unless day-0 FW, more on this below) in my experience its related to infrastructure, recording platform, device for viewing, app OR in some cases (can affect cams in general) multi stream related (i.e sending 3 streams out to different platforms while also trying to view live) and even then only if bitrate is high on all streams and a number of operations are happening live.
Other Considerations
Live View vs Recorded Image
Anti Alias
5831’s
Color4K-X
Chip Changes
When Expanding The System
In Summary
HTH
Some questions embedded as wellFirst up, certainly not seen any issues with live view stuttering across the number of 5842s I’ve tested in both turret and bullet cam. If issues have been seen with cams (of any range) over the years then generally (unless day-0 FW, more on this below) in my experience its related to infrastructure, recording platform, device for viewing, app OR in some cases (can affect cams in general) multi stream related (i.e sending 3 streams out to different platforms while also trying to view live) and even then only if bitrate is high on all streams and a number of operations are happening live.
Other Considerations
One thing to consider is that sometimes it’s not just how hard the cam is working itself BUT how or what is accessing it while its doing these tasks. In your case don’t forget you also have this being accessed by a NAS/HA unit which is accessing your cam multiple times per minute based on the logs and that access can also get in the way of an already highly loaded cam that may be processing other operations at the same time. The cam still has to process platform access and authentication when connected this way and can add to the strain. These new 4K’s pack a lot of processing in and skirt close to the edge in some use cases depending on what you have on scene, rules, SMD + IVS etc and then the platform (or multiple platform) access too. Combine all of this AND want to watch a 4K live stream at good bitrate and you might see intermittent glitches. What are you using to view the Live View, app, browser (if so which one) ? Are you viewing on a hard wired connected system OR over WiFi to phone, tablet etc ?
Continuing from above, its definitely worth (as you add more cams and especially those higher MP/bitrate cams) auditing your infrastructure. Forget VPN for a sec and let’s focus on the local connect you mention. What switch(es) are you using and are they managed or dumb ? If managed then there’s a lot more that can be looked at of course (good thing). Is your infrastructure flat or more segmented (either physically through other switches or through VLANs etc) ? Any QOS in place ? What does throughput look like to and from the endpoint, in this case from the device you are viewing from back to the switch, from device to cam, from recording platform (NVR, NVR platform, NAS etc) to cam ? Any packet loss seen from the switch for this cam ? If viewing across WiFi what is signal strength and how is the AP connected (mesh or hard wired backhaul etc with what number of hops to switch where cams are present) ? While it may seem like overkill when adding just another cam to the mix, it’s worth checking and keeping an eye on as you expand/replace.
Live View vs Recorded Image
Another thing to keep in mind is that while Live View is certainly useful, remember that the key in any security system is the recorded image. Unless you are manually controlling a cam in a live environment such as real-time security applications or using PTZs with joysticks etc for critical track work. Other than that, the main concern is that the recorded and processed image/clip (in the case of special applications like Face Recognition or ANPR etc) is intact (non glitched, non-skipped). You’ll primarily be relying on captured image review so ensuring that it is robust is always critical and number 1 priority. Therefore unless recorded image is impacted then I wouldn't be as concerned. From a sub stream perspective there really isn’t any reason to go above 704x480 as generally you’re using it just for reduced size, quick live view and thats it. So one test I would recommend is to drop to 704x480 (can even leave it at 30fps as that shouldn't cause any strain at this resolution) on H.264H (not H.265) and see if thats choppy (go low first then increase from there). Sticking with this subject for a mother minute. If you reduce your main bitrate (main stream) to 4096 for another test + then set your sub stream to 2 at 1080 and are still seeing choppiness, then something else is going on in your system for sure !
Anti Alias
You asked about Anti Alias above. The AA algorithm for any of these cams is in back end code (for good reason) and for the most part has been pretty solidly deployed across the portfolio in testing. The AA algorithm assists with issues such as step laddering, jaggies (caused by compression and noise) + effects such as moire patterns etc. Therefore due to the real-time nature required of the processing of live image is why its algorithm based and not presented to the user. AA usually leads to a slightly softer image overall when it’s too aggressively applied but I don’t believe that issue is present on these cams tested. With regards to the image differences, the 5842 does feature slightly more chromatic aberration which you may be noticing more along edges (seen as slight fringe) and if seen, is generally more at a distance and in high contrasting areas. There are exceptions, usually seen on v1.0 or day-0 FW releases and in some cases need tweaks (as I fed back on the Color4K-X initially) due to different optics, SOC pairings needing changes over ‘standard’ cams utilizing the same chipset range. The VOLT based Color4K-X was a perfect example as it shared the chip with the 5442 BUT featured brand new optics and custom algorithms (that are not addressed to the 5442) which needed more tweaking than using the ‘generic’ code base for the VOLT range. This was exacerbated further due to the more shallow DOF offered by the paired optics on the Color4K-X. Glad to report this feedback was implemented and the resulting image is much better in release version than it was at test (but thats why we test ).
).5831’s
Onto the 5831s. They were never bad cams (some loved them, some hated them) but to be honest the 1831/2831s were better still IMO and still hold up well today. Regardless of cam choice though, on the topic of older cams, a word of caution with regards to FW support. Older models do get dropped from support relatively quickly these days unless a) it’s is security related issue (CVE etc) and even then only to a point or b) where a shared chipset is still supported. Again just a caution especially if you look to purchase a large number of older units.
and still hold up well today. Regardless of cam choice though, on the topic of older cams, a word of caution with regards to FW support. Older models do get dropped from support relatively quickly these days unless a) it’s is security related issue (CVE etc) and even then only to a point or b) where a shared chipset is still supported. Again just a caution especially if you look to purchase a large number of older units.Color4K-X
Lets revisit the Color4K-X for a sec. Andy mentioned the Color4K-X which is another amazing camera (check out my review on this one) BUT again you have to make sure it’s right for your install location. It needs light (small but decent amount to truly make it shine as I showed) but you also have to take into account the more shallow DOF that I mentioned above which if planned and installed for correctly, will not be an issue but for those with longer FOV’s (expecting near to far focal range sharpness) its something to be aware of as I’ve mentioned before.
Chip Changes
With regards to chip shortages, there could be a difference (un-documented) based on manufacture date and availability BUT generally it would have to be in spec of the overall design otherwise it would usually be classed as a 2nd series (S2) version etc and would represent a permanent change in the cams going forward from that manufacture date.
When Expanding The System
Lastly, as you look to expand/replace your setup I would strongly recommend that for the darker areas you either a) look to augment light (always the best option wherever possible and as mentioned above allows you to expand to 4K-X as an option) and b) consider the bullet variants because as I said, you gain 2 extra IR LED’s but critically the ability to dial in IR for near/far situations which certainly help a lot IF you have locations where IR throw is needed further out and/or you have foreground objects causing IR splash back.
In Summary
Either way, the choice is yours for final cam pick and the beauty right now is their is a lot of great, complimentary options across the Dahua portfolio as I’ve written about previously. With that said I certainly wouldn’t write off the 5842s as they are a great cam with a lot of power but as always have to be selected for the location and FOV accordingly. Not every cam will work in all situations as myself and others call out but install location is a critical part of cam selection. Either way, regardless of choice, I would/have and will always advise you do NOT use Auto/Default settings on any cam in any situation . Also, by now I think/hope you know that regardless of what cam(s) / system(s) you end up on, if you need help then always feel free to reach out and I’m happy to help where I can.
. Also, by now I think/hope you know that regardless of what cam(s) / system(s) you end up on, if you need help then always feel free to reach out and I’m happy to help where I can.HTH
I just opened another 2021 cam, connected it, set it side by side to a 2018 cam.
You must look at them full screen, do not look at the smaller images here... open them up and flip between the two. At the smaller scale the 2021 looks great, but not so much when you full screen it.
The 2018 has better image quality than the 2021, the details of the bark on the ground, in the trees, etc are higher quality on the 2021. Look at the cat he's holding. This is also more dramatic when looking at the live stream. The 2018 video is a lot better.
The 2021 can't even stream without stuttering. The 2021 needs expert level tweaking just to approach the quality of the 2018 (and it still can't be reached).
I've made up my mind at this point -- the 2018's are the cams I'll stick with and I will not buy anymore 2021's unless they run out of stock. I'm going to order a batch now so I have them.
The hardware in these 2018's, while good specs, are probably not as good as the 2018 model. Some sort of money saving feature that ends with a lower quality camera.
You must look at them full screen, do not look at the smaller images here... open them up and flip between the two. At the smaller scale the 2021 looks great, but not so much when you full screen it.
The 2018 has better image quality than the 2021, the details of the bark on the ground, in the trees, etc are higher quality on the 2021. Look at the cat he's holding. This is also more dramatic when looking at the live stream. The 2018 video is a lot better.
The 2021 can't even stream without stuttering. The 2021 needs expert level tweaking just to approach the quality of the 2018 (and it still can't be reached).
I've made up my mind at this point -- the 2018's are the cams I'll stick with and I will not buy anymore 2021's unless they run out of stock. I'm going to order a batch now so I have them.
The hardware in these 2018's, while good specs, are probably not as good as the 2018 model. Some sort of money saving feature that ends with a lower quality camera.
| IPC-HDW5831R-ZE (2018) | IPC-HDW5842T-ZE-S2 (2021) |
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Totally agree with the older 2018 camera looking better with more realistic colours & contrast. The rear trees are more accurate for green trees. The yellow T shirt looks more yellow. Even the cats tail and backside unfortunately has more clarity!
In those last two images, the 2021 camera is clearly over sharpening everything and skewing the exposure to the high side.
The exposure setting helps with the shadows (the trees in the background for example), but blows out the highlights (the child's face and shirt for example). I doubt there is anyway to fix the exposure issue unless you manually set the exposure with a specific shutter speed and gain setting which is impractical because that setting would only be accurate for one exact "available light" situation. As soon as you introduce a "range" on either shutter speed or gain, the camera is going to set the exposure according to it's programming and clearly it is on the high side.
The over sharpening is clearly seen in the wood chips and green foliage in the background. On the 2018 they look normal while on the 2021 version they have extremely high contrast and artificially hard lines which is a clear indication of sharpening taken too far. The sharpening issue may be fixable in the settings, but honestly I doubt any "sharpening" setting will fix it because it is so far off.
I have to agree that the 2018 is definitely providing the better image of the two in this situation.
The exposure setting helps with the shadows (the trees in the background for example), but blows out the highlights (the child's face and shirt for example). I doubt there is anyway to fix the exposure issue unless you manually set the exposure with a specific shutter speed and gain setting which is impractical because that setting would only be accurate for one exact "available light" situation. As soon as you introduce a "range" on either shutter speed or gain, the camera is going to set the exposure according to it's programming and clearly it is on the high side.
The over sharpening is clearly seen in the wood chips and green foliage in the background. On the 2018 they look normal while on the 2021 version they have extremely high contrast and artificially hard lines which is a clear indication of sharpening taken too far. The sharpening issue may be fixable in the settings, but honestly I doubt any "sharpening" setting will fix it because it is so far off.
I have to agree that the 2018 is definitely providing the better image of the two in this situation.
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Note, both cams can be dialed in. But no matter the dialing, the 2021 will not look as smooth, as clear, and as realistic as the 2018 model. Then add in the stuttering of the 2021 and I'm convinced that the 2018 is a better general purpose camera compared to the 2021. The 2021 seems to win out on low light scenarios but it's not much of a difference and not worth it in my opinion to get a worse picture quality and stuttering.
Maybe this is something Dahua can fix with a firmware upgrade? I hope so, I do not want to use a 2018 camera, I want to upgrade my fleet to something more modern, with a larger lens, with more memory/CPU, newer firmware, and the 2021 fits all that, but it just doesn't deliver on the output.
Maybe this is something Dahua can fix with a firmware upgrade? I hope so, I do not want to use a 2018 camera, I want to upgrade my fleet to something more modern, with a larger lens, with more memory/CPU, newer firmware, and the 2021 fits all that, but it just doesn't deliver on the output.
Don't know if anyone caught this but, you are using H.265 on the 2021 cam and H.264H on the 2018 cam.
As I mentioned above, the stuttering I would look elsewhere (outside of the camera directly) at the cause of this issue. My post above goes into details on what could be going on there and where to potentially start the fault isolation. Having tested may 5842's I cannot reproduce that stuttering on different infrastructure configs unless I introduce factors to make it so. In terms of sharpening, that I'm running some setups and scenarios and documenting my findings back. Specifically I've seen a difference on a couple of recent deliveries of this cam. Therefore I am going to compare FW to FW code and will send my findings to Dahua as well as document here. As @samplenhold mentioned above and per my dial in, use H.264H and not H.265, I've covered this on many threads and is definitely what you want to use
I as well use H.265 as gives better compression and takes less HDD space. What are the pros on H.264H?
H.264H = Generally better quality, less motion artifacts, better handling of higher contrast areas at the cost of higher space BUT remember, storage is cheap
Would not advise H.265 myselfGreat… time for bigger HDDs, my dual 4TB isn’t enough anymoreH.264H = Generally better quality, less motion artifacts, better handling of higher contrast areas at the cost of higher space BUT remember, storage is cheap