Looking for (another) affordable night color camera

vertigo

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I just got a H.View E3 camera. Its a cheap(ish) 3MP camera with night color vision. And Im absolutely blown away by how well the night vision works without IR and in full color. Some pics:
cchview back.jpg
This was a worst case scenario test in my back garden. It was so dark, I could not see where to walk. I could post a picture my phone made, but it would be just a black square. The blue shine you see on those shrubs, at first I thought it was an artifact, but it blinked, so I went there and realized it was the blue LED on my mower charger! Okay for this I needed 1/4 shutter speed, so its not great to see motion, but it was so dark I genuinely expected to get nothing useful. What I got was stunning.

This is the spot I bought it for, front of my house. This is what my Dahua sees without IR at 1/4 shutter speed:

oprit.20201028_225229978_1.jpg

And that is pretty much what it looks like with the naked eye. The Dahua does okay-ish when the flood lights come on, so I leave IR off to not attract insects and be blinded by them and rain and, well you all know the issues with IR.

Without the flood light there is some ambient light, mostly from a faint "power saving" street light, barely enough to walk. On the wall I have those cheap solar lights in standby mode. Enough to see them, but not much else (they trigger on motion and then become bright flood lights). Anyway, this is what the E3 saw on the same spot in same light conditions:
voor.20201029_212959919_1.jpg

And that at full 25 FPS. Color me impressed, pun intended.

Unfortunately, Im less impressed with the rest. Most crucially it disconnects regularly. Sometimes it works for 12 hours straight, sometimes it disconnects 5x an hour. Its connected to a new TP link POE switch, its the only camera on it. I added a mikrotik router to the same POE switch and ran a nonstop 50Mbit bandwidth test from my PC to the switch to rule out any issues with the cabling, and I also replaced the cable going from the POE switch to the camera, all to no avail. It cant be a cabling issue. When it disconnects in blue iris, I also can not ping it on the network. nor connect to it using h.view app. So blue iris is not to blame either and its not likely an encoder or RTSP setting . Its like the camera reboots?

Anyway, nothing is more irritating to me than a camera losing its feed randomly. So Im looking to return it and replace it with something similar. It has to be a bullet camera, POE. I dont care about resolution (even true 1080 is fine!), but I want similar color night vision and rock solid stability. Ideally also usable onboard motion sensing. Oh and it should be cheap(ish), preferably below 100 euro's.

Any suggestions?
 

bp2008

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Hi. You didn't say which Dahua model that is.

Dahua has a few inexpensive cameras that are good in color in low light, though I can't say how they compare with the H.View E3 you have.

IPC-HFW4239T-ASE is Dahua's 2MP "full color starlight" camera, and IPC-HDW5442TM-AS is their 4MP starlight, this particular one has IR LEDs although they have one with visible light LEDs too.

I've tested them both and found them to be very similar in light capture capabilities, so you can pay more for 4MP w/LEDs or pay less for 2MP without LEDs.


 

sebastiantombs

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Quick guide -

The smaller the lux number the better the low light performance. 0.002 is better than 0.02
The smaller the "F" of the lens the better the low light performance. F1.4 is better than F1.8
The larger the sensor the better the low light performance. 1/1.8" is better (bigger) than 1/2.7"
The higher the megapixels for the same size sensor the worse the low light performance. A 4MP camera with a 1/1.8" sensor will perform better than a 8MP camera with that same 1/1.8" sensor.
 

looney2ns

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I just got a H.View E3 camera. Its a cheap(ish) 3MP camera with night color vision. And Im absolutely blown away by how well the night vision works without IR and in full color. Some pics:
View attachment 73843
This was a worst case scenario test in my back garden. It was so dark, I could not see where to walk. I could post a picture my phone made, but it would be just a black square. The blue shine you see on those shrubs, at first I thought it was an artifact, but it blinked, so I went there and realized it was the blue LED on my mower charger! Okay for this I needed 1/4 shutter speed, so its not great to see motion, but it was so dark I genuinely expected to get nothing useful. What I got was stunning.

This is the spot I bought it for, front of my house. This is what my Dahua sees without IR at 1/4 shutter speed:

View attachment 73844

And that is pretty much what it looks like with the naked eye. The Dahua does okay-ish when the flood lights come on, so I leave IR off to not attract insects and be blinded by them and rain and, well you all know the issues with IR.

Without the flood light there is some ambient light, mostly from a faint "power saving" street light, barely enough to walk. On the wall I have those cheap solar lights in standby mode. Enough to see them, but not much else (they trigger on motion and then become bright flood lights). Anyway, this is what the E3 saw on the same spot in same light conditions:
View attachment 73845

And that at full 25 FPS. Color me impressed, pun intended.

Unfortunately, Im less impressed with the rest. Most crucially it disconnects regularly. Sometimes it works for 12 hours straight, sometimes it disconnects 5x an hour. Its connected to a new TP link POE switch, its the only camera on it. I added a mikrotik router to the same POE switch and ran a nonstop 50Mbit bandwidth test from my PC to the switch to rule out any issues with the cabling, and I also replaced the cable going from the POE switch to the camera, all to no avail. It cant be a cabling issue. When it disconnects in blue iris, I also can not ping it on the network. nor connect to it using h.view app. So blue iris is not to blame either and its not likely an encoder or RTSP setting . Its like the camera reboots?

Anyway, nothing is more irritating to me than a camera losing its feed randomly. So Im looking to return it and replace it with something similar. It has to be a bullet camera, POE. I dont care about resolution (even true 1080 is fine!), but I want similar color night vision and rock solid stability. Ideally also usable onboard motion sensing. Oh and it should be cheap(ish), preferably below 100 euro's.

Any suggestions?
Still pictures prove nothing, it's what the camera can do with motion that counts.
 

vertigo

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Thanks for all the responses.

To answer a few questions; the Dahua I was comparing with was a IPC-HFW1320S-W. Not a particularly great camera I think? and definitely not a "starlight" camera, but given then 69 euro I paid for the Hview, not an unfair comparison (and its what I had hanging there so...).

As for motion vs still images. I said 25FPS, and I mean <1/25s shutter time, its so perfectly smooth in the driveway shots. It will do 1/50th happily under those circumstances too. Here is a clip, forgive my crappy video editing skills and remember it has been recompressed 3x (blue iris export, video editor to blur my license plate, youtube):


Also shows nicely how it handles the contrast of virtually no light, to car lights and flood lights turning on and off. I dont know how higher end camera's handle low light conditions like this , but I find this astonishingly good, even without considering the price.

Ill look in to those Dahua's. But someone gave me a tip that Im testing now. I disabled the camera OSD, the substream and all on camera motion detection, and so far is glitch free. But I'll give it at least another 24hr before I believe it actually changed anything. If it did I may try turning those things back one by one and see if I can identify any of them as the cause. Im not too optimistic, but I have to try, because if I can solve the stability Im going to replace all my cams with this one I think.
 

sebastiantombs

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i/25 shutter speed will result in serious blurring at night. You may get away with 1/50, IF there's enough ambient light, but fast moving objects will still be blurry. Usually, 1/100 or 1/120 works very reliably to eliminate blur at night. If it won't produce a color image at those speed you'll need to go to B&W.

Incidentally, your video appears to be private.
 

vertigo

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Hope I fixed the private? As for the frame rate; perhaps Im wrong, but you can only define a maximum shutter time. I think I had it set at 1/25 there, but if there is enough light, the camera will automatically use shorter shutter times. Either way, I think its plenty smooth. The shot in my backyard, that was 1/4s and actual 4FPS and motion was very blurry there. Its not a miracle camera. But its low light performance is just what I need.
 

sebastiantombs

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If you're happy with it that's great, but it isn't actually performing very well with the numbers you're showing. I can do that with a four year old Dahua, and the newer ones I have can do that without having shutter speeds anywhere nearly that low. Slow shutter equals blur, there's no way around that.
 

vertigo

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Look, I dont know what shutter speed its actually using. I just wanted to make sure it could do "25 FPS", assuming that guaranteed not too blury motion, so I set to 1/25. But Id be happy to see some video's of your 4 year old dahua to have some comparison. I only have IR cams, the Dahua I mentioned earlier and a hikvision DS-2CD2041G1-IDW1. They are absolutely useless without IR. For me this one is a revelation, but Im not claiming its the best night vision camera in the world.
 

bigredfish

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What model # is that ? I’d like to test one.

It looks like you have a boatload of light at the driveway, any cheap camera will do well at night with enough light. It’s very hard to believe that snapshot from the low end Dahua is that dark if those same coach lights are on...
 

sebastiantombs

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Seriously, try a 2231T-ZS, 1/2." 2MP sensor with a varifocal lens for about $125USD. Excellent night performance. Frame rate is not the key to no blurring. I run my cameras at 10FPS to save disk space, 24/7 recording, and I get no blurring from cars going at least 40MPH and probably faster than that. The shutter speed is the key. If you can't control, and "lock in" shutter speed, frame rate, bit rate and iframe rate you're dealing with sub-par, consumer grade cameras.
 

vertigo

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What model # is that ? I’d like to test one.
Model number is E3 I believe. Please let me know if you do test it, Id be curious if nothing else if you have the same stability woes.

It looks like you have a boatload of light at the driveway,
I agree, thats what it looks like. But I just dont. I dont have a lux meter, so I took a picture with my samsung galaxy A53:
20201031_222459.jpeg
You cant even see there is a car there. The lights you see on my wall, like I said, solar lights in "standby mode". They provide no real useful light (to the eye) unless the motion sensor is triggered. You can see they are there, but not much more than that.

any cheap camera will do well at night with enough light. It’s very hard to believe that snapshot from the low end Dahua is that dark if those same coach lights are on...
They are in standby (basically off) in both stills. In the video they come on as I drive up, they completely overwhelm the streetlight and the shadow of the tree goes away, and you can see them turn "off" again after I enter. The only somewhat standard candle I can provide is the interior lights of my car in that video. Its an old french car, it doesnt have blinding interior lights!
 

bigredfish

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Hmmm only the 5mp available here in the States.

The video isn’t bad, some blur but not too bad. I think you just get a lot of light when those floods kick in.
 

vertigo

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Absolutely, When the floods kick in, there is ample light (I love those solar flood lights, work much better than I thought). The Dahua also handled that fine. It was just blind without them, whereas this E3 sees remarkably well "in the dark".

As for the 5MP; I read somewhere its low light performance was worse. But there are very few reviews on any of these H.views, I found only one on youtube, so if you decide to test the 5MP, Im still interested. The E3 is 'compatible with hikvision'. I suspect its a rebrand?

edit: just noticed on amazon UK they list the sensor. Its a sony X307 starvis. Apparently a 2MP sensor so they are upscaling to 3MP, not a big surprise there. For the 5MP they dont list the sensor AFAICT.
 
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bigredfish

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Yeah the 5MP would naturally be worse in low light, not interested in it.

Would be nice to see the old Daha beside that 3mp with the very same exposure (shutter) settings with the ligts on equally
 

vertigo

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Seriously, try a 2231T-ZS, 1/2." 2MP sensor with a varifocal lens for about $125USD.
Oomph. Only one I can find in EU is in Finland for 230 euro and out of stock. And, according to the spec sheet:
it uses a
· 1/2.8” 2Megapixel progressive StarvisTM CMOS
That is almost certainly the same sony sensor as in my camera, at least same size, manufacturer and product family:

The only difference I can tell between the three 2MP starvis sensors is the coating and the 120 FPS for the 462.
so I dont think it will perform a lot better, its probably the exact same sensor. I would expect the Dahua to not have stability issues, but mine is now 10 hours without disconnects/reboots, knocking on wood..
 
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vertigo

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Would be nice to see the old Daha beside that 3mp with the very same exposure (shutter) settings with the ligts on equally
I cant lock the shutter speed on the Dahua. But it was only producing 4FPS under the same conditions, so I assume it was at 1/4th. If it where possible to lock it at 1/25, it would be even blacker than in the picture in my first post. The conditions where identical. It was the same overcast/rainy day, and neither the streetlight nor my solar leds change brightness. Honestly the difference is "day and night". I cant go back to IR cams now.

edit: to clarify, I had the dahua locked in day mode. So not B/W. It does better in BW and obviously if you turn on the IR leds.
 

bigredfish

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Shutter speed has nothing to do with FPS.
You can lock most any Dahua camera at given shutter speed.

Me thinks this may be part of the confusion

FPS
camera-fps.jpg

Shutter (exposure)
camera-shutter.jpg



With enough white light, ANY decent 2MP-8MP camera can record in color at night

2MP Analog Dahua (2015 technology)
ch2_20170613020421-A.jpg


4K 2019 Dahua 2831TM-AS-S2
vlcsnap-2020-06-21-21h24m39s835.jpg


4MP Dahua 5442T-ASE-NI (current model)
4116P_Drive West_main_20201009222611_@12.jpg
 

sebastiantombs

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I'm not an expert on sensors but do suspect that there are major differences between sensors in the same "family". Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can comment on that.

Frame rate and shutter speed are two different things and are totally unrelated to each other. All of the Dahua and Hikvision cameras I have allow full control of all aspects of the video, from encoding to brightness, contrast and everything else you can think of. That allows fine tuning to get an optimal video.

Have you looked in the Cliff Notes, in the blue bar, at the top of the page? A lot of very useful and informative information is in there regarding all aspects o cameras and surveillance systems.
 
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