Need advice for basic install in 4 big garages

[jgverano]

Hi All,

I'm new here and need some advice specing out a system. I'm on the board of our HOA and we are looking into placing cameras in our parking garages due to recent car break-ins. We have 500 units and 4 underground single level garages.

We have gotten quotes from service providers like ecamsecure, but their terms were terrible, and it seems like we can do it ourselves, get better quality, own the system, and avoid costly subscriptions.

Three garages are smaller and each have 3 pedestrian doors and a gated driving entrance that opens by rf remote. Each one has an electrical/Telco room, where we can set up power and internet connections.

One garage is bigger and has 9 pedestrian doors and a gated driving entrance. This one has two electrical/Telco rooms.

There is no sitewide LAN, and at first it'd be OK to just have offline NVRs that we can go have a look at if there's an incident. Longer term we will get Google fiber installed, and get complimentary Internet access in each garage Telco room. At that point we can connect the NVRs to the cloud.

We don't have a massive budget and would be looking for a good value system that works reliably and is a smart long term investment.

To cover the basic points of entry, we are thinking of setting up 2 cameras at each driving gate, one in each direction, and one camera at each locked pedestrian door.

We have a small hikvision system in our office and it seems to work well.

We found this kit of 6x 4k cameras+ NVR and figure we could get 5 of those, one for each small garage, and 2 for the big garage. If we need more recording time maybe a few hard drives too.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1703173-REG/hikvision_eki_k82t86_8_channel_8mp_nvr_with.html

We like that they are 4k cameras, but are a bit worried about vandal resistance.

They are Ptz cams which might be overkill, but might be nice to have to tune the setup or for eventual use by our security guards.

We won't use the audio because of privacy concerns so that's an unnecessary feature, but these kits seem like a pretty good deal.

What do you think? Would these be a good fit for the application, and/or what additional information would help to make that determination?

Thank you

 

[TonyR]

Some points for you to consider:

• The sensor size for those cams is way too small for a 4K cam and is suitable perhaps for a 2MP (1080p) cam; a 4K/8MP cam should be no smaller than 1/1.2". With that 1/2.5" sensor size, it's night vision would not be very good.
• Those cams are turret style, which is a good form factor but they are not PTZ. Perhaps they resemble a vari-focal equipped turret that can be set for the desired focal length then left alone, no zooming in/out repeatedly, it's not built for that.
• The specs state that the NVR's have only 1 SATA port so if you want to increase your storage later you'd have to swap out the 2TB, giving you a 2TB paperweight, seems like a waste. I don't recall most decent NVR's not having a second SATA port.

 

[sebastiantombs]

You need to consider the lighting and how well lit things are. Most cameras will go into black and white augmented with IR when there isn't enough light for a color image. As TonyR said, those cameras have sensors that are too small to be effective in low light or dark conditions.

Covering the entries is the first step and you'll probably want to add more cameras eventually. NVRs are limited by two factors, the number of camera ports and the bandwidth that it can support. Not all NVRs are created equal, especially in the bandwidth department. The problem becomes adding more high resolution cameras, even if there are enough ports, can easily exceed that bandwidth limitation.

You might be better served using lower resolution cameras and locating them strategically to get good captures. Using varifocal cameras makes locating them easier because you can adjust the focal length of the lens to suit each situation.

Maybe a sketch, with approximate distances involved would help here.

 

[mat200]

Hi All,

I'm new here and need some advice specing out a system. I'm on the board of our HOA and we are looking into placing cameras in our parking garages due to recent car break-ins. We have 500 units and 4 underground single level garages.

We have gotten quotes from service providers like ecamsecure, but their terms were terrible, and it seems like we can do it ourselves, get better quality, own the system, and avoid costly subscriptions.

Three garages are smaller and each have 3 pedestrian doors and a gated driving entrance that opens by rf remote. Each one has an electrical/Telco room, where we can set up power and internet connections.

One garage is bigger and has 9 pedestrian doors and a gated driving entrance. This one has two electrical/Telco rooms.

There is no sitewide LAN, and at first it'd be OK to just have offline NVRs that we can go have a look at if there's an incident. Longer term we will get Google fiber installed, and get complimentary Internet access in each garage Telco room. At that point we can connect the NVRs to the cloud.

We don't have a massive budget and would be looking for a good value system that works reliably and is a smart long term investment.

To cover the basic points of entry, we are thinking of setting up 2 cameras at each driving gate, one in each direction, and one camera at each locked pedestrian door.

We have a small hikvision system in our office and it seems to work well.

We found this kit of 6x 4k cameras+ NVR and figure we could get 5 of those, one for each small garage, and 2 for the big garage. If we need more recording time maybe a few hard drives too.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1703173-REG/hikvision_eki_k82t86_8_channel_8mp_nvr_with.html

We like that they are 4k cameras, but are a bit worried about vandal resistance.

They are Ptz cams which might be overkill, but might be nice to have to tune the setup or for eventual use by our security guards.

We won't use the audio because of privacy concerns so that's an unnecessary feature, but these kits seem like a pretty good deal.

What do you think? Would these be a good fit for the application, and/or what additional information would help to make that determination?

Thank you

Hi @jgverano

If you are new to this topic, plan to take some time to learn more before jumping into a full system purchase.

See the cliff notes and read threads ..

For everyone new to this: You will need a bigger budget, more cameras, and better cameras to get closer to the results you imagine.

"We like that they are 4k cameras, but are a bit worried about vandal resistance. " - often the solution is even more cameras with over lapping coverage so that no camera can be vandalized without you getting a proper chance at a good ID image.

The kit mentioned .. note specs seem short of what you may want ..




Hikvision EKI-K82T86 Specs

NVR
Number of Channels 8
Resolution Up to 8 MP
Bandwidth Incoming: 80 Mb/s
Outgoing: 80 Mb/s
HDMI Output Resolution 4096 x 2160, 3840 x 2160, 2560 x 1440, 1920 x 1080, 1600 x 1200, 1280 x 1024, 1280 x 720
VGA Output Resolution 1920 x 1080, 1280 x 1024, 1280 x 720
Video Output Mode HDMI/VGA Simultaneous Output
Two-Way Audio 1-Channel, RCA (2 V p-p, 1 Kilohm)
Audio Output 1-Channel, RCA (Linear, 1 Kilohm)
Decoding Formats H.265+, H.265, H.264+, H.264
Recording Resolution 8 MP, 6 MP, 5 MP, 4 MP, 3 MP, 1080p, UXGA, 720p, VGA, 4CIF, DCIF, 2CIF, CIF, QCIF
Synchronous Playback 8 Channels
Decoding Capability 1 Channel at 8 MP (30 fps)
5 Channels at 1080p (30 fps)
Stream Type Video, Video & Audio
Audio Compression G.711ulaw, G.711alaw, G.722, G.726
Remote Connection 64
Network Protocols TCP/IP, DHCP, IPv4, IPv6, DNS, DDNS, NTP, RTSP, SADP, SMTP, SNMP, NFS, iSCSI, ISUP, UPnP, HTTP, HTTPS
Network Interface 1 x RJ45 100M Self-Adaptive Ethernet Port
PoE Interface 8 x 100M RJ45 Self-Adaptive Ethernet Ports
PoE Power ≤75 W
PoE Standard IEEE 802.3af/at
SATA 1 x SATA Interface
Drive Bays 1
HDD Capacity 8 TB
HDD Included 2 TB
USB 1 x USB 2.0 (Front Panel)
1 x USB 2.0 (Rear Panel)
Power Supply 48 VDC, 1.88 A
Power Consumption ≤10 W (Without HDD & PoE Off)
Operating Temperature 14 to 131°F / -10 to 55°C
Operating Humidity 10 to 90%
Dimensions 12.4 x 9.4 x 1.9" / 320 x 240 x 48 mm
Weight 2.2 lb / ≤1 kg (Without HDD)

Camera
Image Sensor 1/2.5", Progressive Scan CMOS
Minimum Illumination Color: 0.01 Lux (f/2.0 with AGC)
B&W: 0 Lux
Shutter Speed 1/100,000 to 1/3 Seconds
Slow Shutter Yes
NTSC/PAL Yes
WDR 120 dB
Day/Night IR Cut Filter
3-Axis Adjustment Horizontal: 0 to 360°
Vertical: 0 to 75°
Rotation: 0 to 360°
Lens 2.8mm
Lens Mount M12
Aperture f/2.0
Field of View Horizontal: 102°
Vertical: 53°
Diagonal: 123°
IR Range 98' / 30 m
IR Wavelength 850 nm
Light Supplement Yes
Maximum Resolution 3840 x 2160
Frame Rate Main Stream: 15 fps at 3840 x 2160, 2560 x 1440, 1920 x 1080, 1280 x 720

Sub-Stream: 30 fps at 640 x 480, 640 x 360
Video Compression Main Stream: H.265+, H.265
Sub-Stream: H.265, MJPEG
H.265 Profile Main Profile
Video Bit Rate 32 kb/s to 16 Mb/s
Bit Rate Control CBR, VBR
SVC H.265
Region of Interest One Fixed Region for Main Stream and Sub-Stream
Environment Noise Filtering Yes
Audio Sampling Rate 8 kHz / 16 kHz
Audio Compression G.711ulaw, G.711alaw, G.722.1, G.726, MP2L2, PCM, AAC
Audio Bit Rate 64 kb/s (G.711), 16 kb/s (G.722.1), 16 kb/s (G.726), 32 to 160 kb/s (MP2L2), 16 to 64 kb/s (AAC)
Simultaneous Live View Up to 6 Channels
API ONVIF Profiles G & S, ISAPI, SDK, ISUP
Network Protocols TCP/IP, ICMP, DHCP, DNS, DDNS, HTTP, HTTPS, RTP, RTSP, NTP, UPnP, IGMP, IPv6, UDP, QoS, Bonjour, FTP, SMTP, 802.1x, SSL/TLS, PPPoE
User/Host Level Up to 32 Users at 3 Host Levels (Admin, Operator, User)
Network Storage Supports up to 256 GB microSD/SDHC/SDXC Card Local Storage, NAS (NFS, SMB/CIFS), Auto Network Replenishment (ANR)
Client iVMS-4200, Hik-Connect
Supported Web Browsers Internet Explorer 10 & 11 (Plug-In Required), Chrome 57 or Higher, Firefox 52 or Higher
Day/Night Switching Day, Night, Auto, Schedule
Image Enhancement BLC, HLC, D-DNR
Image Settings Mirror, Saturation, Brightness, Contrast, Sharpness, AGC, White Balance
Privacy Masking 4 Regions of Privacy Masks
Built-In Microphone Yes
Hardware Reset Yes
Communication Interface 1 x RJ45 100M Self-Adaptive Ethernet Port
Analytics Motion Detection, Video Tampering, Exception
Alarm Linkage Upload to FTP/NAS/Memory Card, Notify Surveillance Center, Send Email, Trigger Recording, Trigger Capture
Languages English, Russian, Estonian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Greek, German, Italian, Czech, Slovak, French, Polish, Dutch, Portuguese, Spanish, Romanian, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish, Croatian, Slovenian, Serbian, Turkish, Korean, Traditional Chinese, Thai, Vietnamese, Japanese, Latvian, Lithuanian, Brazilian Portuguese, Ukrainian
General Functions Anti-Flicker, Heartbeat, Mirror, Password Protection, Password Reset via Email
Operating Temperature -22 to 140°F / -30 to 60°C
Operating Humidity 0 to 95% (Non-Condensing)
Storage Temperature -22 to 140°F / -30 to 60°C
Storage Humidity 0 to 95% (Non-Condensing)
Power Supply 12 VDC ±25%, PoE (802.3af, Class 3)
Power Consumption and Current Draw 12 VDC, 0.4 A, 5 W Maximum
PoE: (802.3af, 36 to 57 V), 0.2 to 0.1 A, 6.5 W Maximum
IP Rating IP67
Material of Construction Aluminum Alloy
Dimensions (Diameter x Height) 5 x 3.7" / 127 x 96 mm
Weight 1.03 lb / 469 g
Packaging Info
Package Weight 18.46 lb
Box Dimensions (LxWxH) 20.1 x 12.4 x 9.9"

 

[DanDenver]

If all of this is to nail someone in a court of law for conducting a crime, you would be surprised how easy it is for the defense to shrug off bad video as evidence. What with hoodies and fast moving perps combined with poor image capture.
The moral of the story is that you need more cameras than you might think. Criminals are fairly savvy to cameras and having as many angles as possible is critical. Certainly start out with what you can afford, but have in the plan a firm outline of where future cameras will go.

I agree with @sebastiantombs, without a floor plan there is simply no way to know if your coverage will be poor, acceptable or overdone (uh… is that possible!?).

Also, you did not mention any signage. I would make the announcement of a camera system very visible. This is a big deterrent. I would place big fake cameras with big signs saying they are being recorded. Then the real cameras would not be their first target as they would not be advertised and have no sign near them.

 

[sebastiantombs]

It wouldn't hurt to have the fake cameras be bullets with a nice, bright, red flashing light to "indicate recording". That would tend to make people look for bullet cameras and not turret cameras.

 

[Smilingreen]

The specs on the NVR show that you will only have 80MB/s input and 80MB/s output combined for all 8 Cameras. I have the same NVR, except mine is a 4 channel with a 2 TB hard drive. 8-4K cameras will saturate your bandwidth and you will have one or more cameras that will drop out sporadically, not to mention the POE will probably be maxed out.. I quit using my NVR after only 6 months due to this problem and switched over to a dedicated PC running Blue Iris. I run a separate POE+ 16 Channel switch along with 1 Injector for my large PTZ cam. If you will be recording 24/day on all 8 cameras, along with pictures, you will fill up your 2TB WD Purple in just a couple of days.

 

[looney2ns]

As others have mentioned, we can't really help without a diagram of your area or better yet, pictures of the area. Or a satellite image.

I agree, the "kits" are almost always lacking. One size fits all (all the same cameras) rarely works out well.
You need to choose the proper cameras for the intended purpose's.

We are glad you are here asking questions before diving in to this.

 

[DanDenver]

I ran an NVR for 5 years (LaView) and was never impressed. After I moved to BI 2 years ago, I felt like, for the first time, I had a security camera system that added value. And this is at my residence, can't imagine how ham stringed you will feel in a commercial setting.

Please note that my priority has always been an image that should I ever need to hand over to police, that they will say, nice shot, this will help in solving this crime. Not just, thanks, at least we know the perp is not a 5 legged creature from some lagoon.

Every detail goes towards a conviction.

I want to convict someone beyond a reasonable doubt. So we may have different priorities in this area.

 

[Smilingreen]

Also, look at the B&H site closer. That packaged system is Out of Stock.

 

[AP514]

First off....Welcome....
Being on the Board of the HOA and having 500 units... might give you a good -Pool- of people that will have some knowlege on this subject. (the 2 heads are better than one theory)
Some migh be able to run wire others on setup or networks. Make it a community Project ?
Get together and read the WIKI, Cliffnotes and more. After that put your heads together and then post some Info here(Pic's, Diagrams, Drawings of where you Plan on mounting your Cams.
the Great Community here will give you Tips, Feedback and Help steer you through.... to the makings of a good system.

 

[DanDenver]

Uh... can't get just one of the 600 people at my condo complex to pull a single weed anywhere on the property. Volunteering an actual skill seems even more challenging.

 

[mat200]

Uh... can't get just one of the 600 people at my condo complex to pull a single weed anywhere on the property. Volunteering an actual skill seems even more challenging.

HOAs .. indeed .. too many challenges with getting this together at times ..

HOAs such a pita to deal with at times .. too many chances for Karens to take over .. and not enough rational people in charge ..

 

[TonyR]

HOAs .. indeed .. too many challenges with getting this together at times ..

HOAs such a pita to deal with at times .. too many chances for Karens to take over .. and not enough rational people in charge ..

And usually at least a couple of retirees that always wanted to be a big fish in a little pond some day....and feel like their dream finally came true.

 

[jgverano]

Wow - thank you so much for all of your quick and thoughtful feedback. Thank you for linking me to the Cliff notes as well.

Re camera selection
Yeah looks like I fell right into the 4K resolution trap there. For reference, we currently have two of these (now obsolete) cameras that worked well for us in a past situation. One mounted at face level and the other higher up out of reach: Hikvision DS-2CD2146G1-IS

• 1/2.7" progressive CMOS
• 2688 x 1520 @30 fps
• 100' of IR
• 2.8mm fixed lens 104° horizontal FOV
• IK10 rated dome, which I now know is a bad idea outside

Anything we get that’s similar quality should work OK for our immediate needs.

Re: Layout / placement
Now that you say it, it's obvious that more cams will get us more useful information and so better value per pixel. We have complete blueprints of each site but I can't post those here. Seems like the most effective thing would be to build it out in the IPVM design tool, but again I worry about making this public. We could make some basic outline drawings instead. What are your thoughts?

Re: Full system deployment
We plan to roll this out in a phased approach, learn from what works and apply that moving forward. Ie start with one garage, or part of one, and go from there.

Re: Goal of the system
First as a deterrent, then for evidence collection after the fact. In the future (once networked) it would be nice if we can get our security guards to use it. We have some old fake cameras that are obviously fake and have no deterrent value anymore. It may be that by the time we source, order and convincingly mount a fake camera we might as well put up a real one.

Overall:
It looks like there’s a ton of detail I could dive into here, and what I definitely can’t do is become the only one who knows how a system like this works and more importantly, the only one to call when something doesn’t work. Short term we can probably put up a little demo system to deal with one particularly troublesome area and let that be the example to follow.

Over the long term the Association would probably be better served by the board learning more about what’s useful, coming up with a definition of success and then getting that done by working with a local installer. The feedback and resources here have already been invaluable and will help us evaluate future bids more critically. Does anyone happen to know a good installer in San Diego, CA?

Thanks again!