Need advice on New IP Cam set-up (particularly NVR)

Discussion in 'New Member Introductions' started by AJbest, Feb 10, 2018.

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  1. AJbest

    AJbest n3wb

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    Hi All, I have used this forum to get to where I am now and think this is one of the best single sources of information out their for setting up an IP cam system DIY. I really appreciate this and hope to give back once I learn more. This said, and Opsec out the door, I wanted to share my current plan which I have not set-up yet but have all the hardware for. I am having someone help me run the Cat 6 cable. Here is my plan: https://i.imgur.com/ctuM7qx.jpg .

    I have a few questions: since the NVR only has one ethernet port, should I connect it to the Switch which is connected directly to the router?

    Will the NVR and switch be OK in the crawlspace/attic where it may reach temps in excess of 120-130 degrees in the summer or do I need to take-over a closet inside the house? The crawlspace would be much easier if it can take the heat. Is there any fire risk?

    Last questioN: Should I use Cat 6e or better Cat 7 now to "future proof" while I have the installer?

    Thanks in advance!

    -A
     
  2. fenderman

    fenderman Staff Member

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    connect the nvr to the switch not the router...this way no data has to pass through the router unless you are remote/lan viewing..
    standard cat 6 is way more than you will ever need for an ip camera...
    heat kills hard drives and electronics.
     
  3. AJbest

    AJbest n3wb

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    THanks - I will try to find a way to place the switch and NVR in a closet which has AC.

    P.S. - I have learned a lot from your posts and know what to look for in quality ethernet cable (like all solid). Do you think I should just trust the installer to get the right cable or should I buy my own? Do you have any current links to good Cat 6 cable? If not, no worries, I will make sure I know the specs of Cat 6 installed.
     
  4. AJbest

    AJbest n3wb

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    One more question that I have not thought out yet. What is the optimal viewing software/monitor set-up? I am currently viewing via an ap on my phone (IP Cam Viewer) since I only have 2 cameras now and it works but realize this is not ideal and when I have 6 cameras, I need a more stable system. Do you guys have an ethernet-wired monitor set-up with a viewing software or do most of you just view remotely via wifi on a computer/phone (assuming a VPN is set-up properly)?
     
  5. looney2ns

    looney2ns Known around here

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    Buy your own cable. www.monoprice.com

    'There are several ways to view the video. The NVR's web interface, monitor hooked to NVR in closet, an HDMI cable from NVR to a monitor in a convenient spot, etc. Been discussed many times here.

    I see you are mounting cams on the 2nd story, not a good idea, you want keep cams no higher than 8ft if you want any chance at all ID'ing someone.

    Stick with all Turret style cams were you can outdoors.
     
  6. AJbest

    AJbest n3wb

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    I did not think about the height of the turret cam in that one location (it would be really high - maybe 30 ft.) so with a 2.8 mm turret, my thought was I could get more coverage but did not think about facial ID. I will re-consider and place lower at ~8 ft high using a corner mount which should be fairly easy and accomplish the same goal of maximal coverage in that one spot. All other cameras would be on the first floor level ~10-12 ft high or so.

    I got the bullet cam based on Nayr's recommendation but I was not experienced at the time. It is a great, great cam but maybe not ideal for my purposes in my location. The one outside dome cam will be under a porch in the corner with about 8 ft of coverage so hopefully there will not be any UV damage that I have read about on this forum. If you think this is not going to work at all, I can easily put the dome camera in a another interior room and purchase another turret cam like the 5231R-ZE, however my wife likes the form factor of the dome cam there better. I have heard from others here that that exact cam is good if recessed as a front door camera. It is what Andy from Epiretecandy recommended to me.

    - A
     
  7. AJbest

    AJbest n3wb

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    What is best between these options? I am running this behind walls and a little outside. Price is not too much of an issue and would rather do this right the first time and not have to reinstall for many years.
    This is becoming an addicting hobby! So much to think about but want to do this right. Thanks in advance for your help.
     
  8. fenderman

    fenderman Staff Member

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    you do NOT want to use flat cable anywhere...the copper is much thinner ...
    reviews are fake Fakespot | Cat7 Ethernet Cable Flat With Clips Jadaol Ethernet Patch Cable With Fake Review Analysis
    also dont trust no name brands...quality cable is cheap, cheap cable is expensive to replace....
     
  9. AJbest

    AJbest n3wb

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    Interesting - had no idea reviews are fake but should have guessed it with 5 * review for ethernet cable.

    I doubt I need the plenium coated but I am going up from first to second to attic floors so may consider it. So I should stay away from the Monoprice no name/logo brands? What is the best bulk Cat 6e/6 ethernet money can buy?
     
  10. fenderman

    fenderman Staff Member

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    monoprice is ok...amazon no name/obscure brands is to be avoided...
     
  11. looney2ns

    looney2ns Known around here

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  12. AJbest

    AJbest n3wb

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    Lightening is definitely a consideration down here. So any competent installer should know how to properly ground the cable right? I am worried that if it is not done right, it may cause issues. I also want to use Cat 6a if I can - does not seem to have much of a cost difference. Would this be a good cable?: 1000FT 23AWG Cat6a 650MHz UTP Solid, Riser-Rated (CMR) Bulk Pure Bare Copper Ethernet Cable, 10G, Black - No Logo - Monoprice.com .

    Also, the guy gave me an estimate of $500 which would include cable (maybe 800 ft). If I supply the cable I may be able to talk them down to $300. I am getting another estimate tomorrow. Is this a fairly good price as a ballpark just to install the ethernet (I install the cameras).
     
  13. looney2ns

    looney2ns Known around here

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    Most importantly you want someone to do the job correctly. Don't just focus on price. Get reference s and check them. Does your area require a license for low voltage? Make them show it to you. If they are crimping on the rj45, then they "should" know how to ground it correctly. That's a fair price if they know their stuff.
     
  14. AJbest

    AJbest n3wb

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    Thanks - these guys seemed very competent - they do mostly speaker/home entertainment/projector set-ups but run ethernet cable and have some experience with surveillance - but this is a secondary focus for them. I asked an electrician friend if low voltage required a permit here and he said probably but it was not enforced. They do not list any credentials other than being SBCA Certified. I spoke to them and they said monoprice was good and they would recommend plenium jacketed ethernet cable. This is spendy but do you guys think it is worth it? Entegrade Series 1000FT Cat6A Bulk Bare Copper Ethernet Network Cable UTP, Solid, Plenum Jacket (CMP), 650MHz, 23AWG, 10G - Blue - Monoprice.com . It is not STP/FTP.

    Any thoughts on this cable? I don't mind the cost if it will be what I need for a bomb-proof install.
     
  15. TonyR

    TonyR Getting comfortable

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    Please, go with the shielded as @looney2ns suggested in post #11. I was born and raised in ATL and I know the lightning can set off car alarms and knock pictures off the wall. My first 2 years of 31 to follow in traffic signals was spent in Clayton County near the ATL airport. I peeled a hundred feet of #14/12 conductor melted into a solid copper rod and tack-welded by lightning to the galvanized messenger and also replaced dozens of Bakelite terminal blocks turned into conductive, carbon resistors by lightning.

    I realize virtually nothing can protect against a direct hit but STP and proper grounding of same very well can mitigate damage from nearby strikes that induce huge amounts of static onto metallic conductors. It's kind of like insurance: it won't prevent an issue but it can sure ease the burden.

    Please invest the extra for STP and insure it's properly terminated and grounded. If 2 cams or 1 NVR is saved it will be well worth the investment.

    And put the NVR and/or POE switch(es) on a good UPS (battery backup).
     
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  16. AJbest

    AJbest n3wb

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    Understood, this is why I am asking you guys and I really appreciate all your input so far. I have done some research but wanted to get your experience. Seems like this one is probably best for me since I want Cat 6a (there is no STP available in Cat 6a, only FTP - will this work the same)? 1000FT 23AWG Cat6a 650MHz FTP Solid, Riser-Rated (CMR) Bulk Pure Bare Copper Ethernet Cable, 10G, Black - No Logo - Monoprice.com

    ANother company (Infinity) has STP Cat 6a as well as Cat 7a STP: 1000FT CAT6A 10G CMR (Riser) Shielded STP 23AWG Solid Bulk Networking Cable .

    In summary, my research has directed me to ethernet cable that has the following characteristics (still learning here but this is what I have found - correct me if I am wrong):

    • General cable characteristics: you want solid copper wire, not any cladded stuff.
    • Solid cable is generally better than twisted especially if using longer runs for POE.
    • Get Cat 6 (and Cat 6e if longer runs future-proofing) instead of Cat 5e since the cost difference is negligible.
    • The more mHz, the better (Cat 6a allows for 650 mHz - this is not needed for POE cams, but why not for the future)
    • Thicker gage (23 AWG) is generally better than thinner cable especially if running POE cameras
    • Get STP/FTP for grounding if you expect interference or lightening, etc for a more bomb-proof install. UTP is generally fine for most people but if you live in a stormy area, may consider STP/FTP. If using STP/FTP the key is to make sure it is grounded properly otherwise there could be a ground-loop and may cause more problems than it is worth.
    • Plenium is only needed if you are running through areas with air-flow like HVAC duct work. If you are not running through duct-work, riser-rated is next best (riser rated is CMR, "wall-rated is CM). CMR and plenium help prevent fire from traveling down the cable.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018 at 1:30 PM
  17. AJbest

    AJbest n3wb

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    Hi TonyR,

    Looking at another thread where you commented, you state to ground the cable going from the POE device to the camera: Anyone use STP ethernet for IP Cams/NVRs?

    So to do this, all I need to do is ensure that the installer grounds both sides of the ethernet cable running from the POE switch to the camera? And by grounding, do you mean making sure the drain wire comes into contact and is crimped to the RJ45 connector? Is this all the grounding that is needed or are there other things I need to ensure are done like grounding the POE switch to the earth ground at my house (would this work:http://www.lightingsupply.com/media...d27136e95/w/p/WPCPIGTAIL3WIRECORD&PL163FT.jpg )

    Also, would I need these: https://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-Networks-ETH-SP-External-Suppressor/dp/B00R20OIAY/?tag=ipctk-20

    If there are any clear threads or videos on how best to ground Cat 6 STP cable and a surveillance system, please share.

    Thanks
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018 at 2:39 PM
  18. witchboard

    witchboard n3wb

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    Just one more suggestion. If you are pulling your own cable, get a couple of 500' boxes rather than one 1000 ft. That way you can pull more than one cable at a time. It will cost a few bucks more but the time savings is worth it.
     
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  19. AJbest

    AJbest n3wb

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    OK, I have done more research on grounding which seems like a big pain, but maybe worth it. Can you confirm if this set-up would work?
    I would need to buy 6 of these grounding rods and 6 of these surge protectors + copper ground wire (~$220) to prevent any damage from potential lighting stikes which is not full-proof.

    If this is really what I need to do, this is a bit exhaustive and I almost feel like taking my changes with unshielded and replacing a camera if I can just ground at the POE switch instead. There has to be an easier way??
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018 at 4:53 PM
  20. AJbest

    AJbest n3wb

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    Good suggestion - I will call monoprice since I do not see the 500 boxes available.
     
  21. witchboard

    witchboard n3wb

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    It's because you are shopping for Cat6A. Is there a reason you need Cat6A vs regular Cat6?
     
  22. AJbest

    AJbest n3wb

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    Honestly, I am just trying to get the best possible cable and may have runs of more than 50 meters. I am installing this mainly for my IP cams, but also for a projector and computers. I figure if I do this right, less chance of re-doing it - who knows what we will have in 5 years.

    This said, Cat 6 is more than enough now. I am just overwhelmed at the STP cable and needing to earth ground every single camera. This just seems overkill to me and I would need to do this myself and my time is really valuable to me now. The installer I am working with says he almost never uses STP ethernet cable and has never had any problems. He said if anything gets fried or if I have any problems, he will re-install for free. He says he will install the STP, just thinks I do not needed it (that my house is fairly new and most lightning would go through the electrical system in the house which is already grounded). I would be the one doing all the grounding which seems complicated and like there is no one right method to do things. I can use surge protectors at the POE switch and NVR but seems like an ordeal to earth ground every single IP camera - it costs about $40 bucks + time to do this all for a $120 camera.
     
  23. TonyR

    TonyR Getting comfortable

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    Understandble. At the very least, I would install a Ubiquiti Networks ETH-SP Poe External Surge Suppressor between the POE switch and the NVR and ground the ETH-SP properly.

    I'd ask for that in writing. If GA is anything like AL (and it is), it's not a question of IF something will get baked by lightning, it's WHEN.

    He is VERY mistaken about that.
     
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  24. AJbest

    AJbest n3wb

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    I think getting a camera baked is a real thing for sure - I have had a Hikvision cam and ethernet cable go bad - not sure if it was due to lighting but possibly. My only gripe is monoprice does not have Cat 6a STP so I would then need to use Cat 6 STP and buy by own shielded RJ45 plugs and keystones. If doing this, would this be the way to go?

    Note: this is just for the main install - I will need to go back and include the surge protectors and properly ground one end of the cable. I assume that if I properly earth ground the POE switch this is all the grounding I need to do (other than ensure the metal drain is securely touching the RJ45 plug)?

    Or, just go UTP riser rated and use surge protectors at the critical points?
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018 at 8:35 PM
  25. TonyR

    TonyR Getting comfortable

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    Yes, at the very least.
    Also, my PC is on an APC battery backup and there's a Ubiquiti ETH-SP protector on the Ethernet before it comes into my PC.
     
  26. AJbest

    AJbest n3wb

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  27. AJbest

    AJbest n3wb

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    How/what do you ground your ETH-SP protectors to?
     
  28. TonyR

    TonyR Getting comfortable

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    I ran the ETH-SP's grounding lug to the green screw (ground) on a NEMA 5-15P (male plug) with a #12 stranded copper, type THHN green insulation conductor and plugged it into a grounded outlet labeled 'surge' on my UPS near the PC. The grounding conductor to the 5-15P is very short, about 2 feet long.
    EDIT: Harbor Freight has for $3, ==>> here.
    HF_NEMA_5-15P.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018 at 12:15 PM