Need some camera advice please..

[towster]

My hobby is fencing and I want to setup a camera to watch me fence. It has to be able to record me wherever I am on the strip either by recording the entire strip or by PTZ. I want to be able to do slow motion replays with it. Also because of where I have to place it I would need the camera to be POE.

I think that because I want to be able to slow down the video I would want to get a camera with 60fps capability but some of my photographer friends say I need high shutter speed.

The room I fence in is quite well lit so I dont need any IR capability. The fencing strip is 14 meters long and 1.5 meters wide. I plan on attaching the camera to the ceiling about 5-6 meters away from the middle of the strip.

So a fixed camera would need to see the entire strip. Disadvantage here is that the camera would end up having to stream all 14 meters of the strip when the action is only happening in like 3 meters.

If the camera did PTZ it would need to be able to automatically be able track two targets running up and down the strip. I sort of like the idea of PTZ but I worry that it would not be able to follow the action. I guess it comes down to how fast can the camera recognize where the action is and how fast can it move to follow it.

Thanks for any advice and wisdom you can give me..

 

[alastairstevenson]

It sounds like you need a friend with a good spec camcorder and good reflexes rather than a surveillance camera.

 

[marku2]

Unfortunately a survaillance cam can’t shoot that fast a frame rate
I’ve tried, and my Sony ax100 unless you use Sony Vegas editing to use there motion over lays and a lot of work in the editing at 120fps
You would still need to run at 250fps
Saying that the new iPhone can shoot at a high frame rate but it’s for a short burst
My dream camera is a phantom it amazes me what the human eye misses in a frame

 

[towster]

So when I say slow motion I dont mean like to take pictures of bullets in mid air. More like to slow down the video to maybe half speed yet remain clear. Here is an example of a phone app someone wrote that records and then lets you do playback at normal and half speed..

 

[marku2]

Ok have a look for a camera that can shoot 60fps and play with its shutter speed too,you will need some good led lights when you increase the shutter speed
It’s that app you would need to interface as you will need the HD recording of the nvr or micro card,that can do 100mbps write speed,this fencing app looks like it’s recording to the phone?
They have GoPro cameras that can do this but you will need to pull down the clip and edit
On the fly it looks like only a phone app will do it

 

[towster]

I dont plan on using that app. It was only an example. It would be a computer that would record the video.

Thanks for the advice on the 60fps. Do you have any recommendations? What about the PTZ vs fixed part of the problem?

 

[marku2]

I dont plan on using that app. It was only an example. It would be a computer that would record the video.

Thanks for the advice on the 60fps. Do you have any recommendations? What about the PTZ vs fixed part of the problem?

Set one up on a tripod fixed camera play with that first it’s going to be like setting up a camera shot except with a fixed camera there’s no way to focus ,so a motorised lens would be better to set the camera back and zoom in on the fencing area.a good ptz capable of 60fps would be $1800 usd ,so I would start small if It works well for your needs then go for the ptz
Hikvision have playback software that you can slow down and vlc has a better slow frame system I’m not up to speed on the dauha play back system yet

 

[marku2]

I was able to get that m&m fan to slow down that each blade pulsed slowly
It did at that shutter speed throw it in black and white mode hence the more light you will need

 

[looney2ns]

You need a GoPro cam.

 

[towster]

Set one up on a tripod fixed camera play with that first it’s going to be like setting up a camera shot except with a fixed camera there’s no way to focus ,so a motorised lens would be better to set the camera back and zoom in on the fencing area.a good ptz capable of 60fps would be $1800 usd ,so I would start small if It works well for your needs then go for the ptz
Hikvision have playback software that you can slow down and vlc has a better slow frame system I’m not up to speed on the dauha play back system yet

I did record a test video with my laptop and a logitech c910 usb camera. Even with that camera I was able to see the action slowed down but I am hoping for it being clearer. Also it was not capable of a wide enough field of view. Assuming my math is correct I estimate a fixed camera would need about 105 degree FOV. Here are some sample freeze frames from a VLC playback of my test.
The only way I would go with a PTZ camera would be if the built in auto-tracking feature of the camera could actually track the people moving up and down the strip. I know they publish the pan speed of the cameras but I have never seen any specifications on the speed and accuracy of the auto-tracking itself. Also what about the smoothness of the panning. Any knowledge or experience with that?

 

[marku2]

i can see what your wanting, very similar to my father and his golf shots i spent days getting the slow motion system set up for him.
i have only had the cheaper hickvision de4a220iw-de it came with auto tracking,its very gimmicky, and not that good for the speed you guys move into and away,
from each other.
but a dahua or hickvision costing $1800us plus might work a whole lot better,
i have a job for a more expensive ptz in January, until then i can on advise you on the cheaper ptz auto track
give you tube a look on auto tracking.
you guys could mount on an alloy pole with a heavy base then use the zoom to get the target area if using a ptz with 20x zoom and 2mp at 60fps
the zoom can be a good distance back to get the shot, and down load the hd footage onto a good quality edit suite.via the ivms on which brand you choose.
so you would need a decent dahua or hikvision one very fast sd card a whole lot of patience in setting the capture rates,frame rates if this is going to be a tool
to use in fencing to teach and analyse where you are going wrong.go for it
but if you just want to use every now and again i would save your money and stick with a go-pro or dvr cam that can shoot 60-120 fps

 

[NoloC]

So some fo my Horse friends use this:
SOLOSHOTSOLOSHOT3 and Optic25 Camera Bundle

IP cams may not be the right solution. Solohot 2 is all I have seen although the version 3 is out now.

 

[marku2]

So some fo my Horse friends use this:
SOLOSHOTSOLOSHOT3 and Optic25 Camera Bundle

IP cams may not be the right solution. Solohot 2 is all I have seen although the version 3 is out now.

just had a look at this quite a cool idea but it suffers from image quality due to its compression
and then you run into the slow motion quality in post edit
if some thing was out there that could render a digital slr with zoom and focus and pan and tilt it around via GPS that worked amazing each time
as Alistair said sadly some times you cant beat a camera man

 

[towster]

i can see what your wanting, very similar to my father and his golf shots i spent days getting the slow motion system set up for him.
i have only had the cheaper hickvision de4a220iw-de it came with auto tracking,its very gimmicky, and not that good for the speed you guys move into and away,
from each other.
but a dahua or hickvision costing $1800us plus might work a whole lot better,
i have a job for a more expensive ptz in January, until then i can on advise you on the cheaper ptz auto track
give you tube a look on auto tracking.
you guys could mount on an alloy pole with a heavy base then use the zoom to get the target area if using a ptz with 20x zoom and 2mp at 60fps
the zoom can be a good distance back to get the shot, and down load the hd footage onto a good quality edit suite.via the ivms on which brand you choose.
so you would need a decent dahua or hikvision one very fast sd card a whole lot of patience in setting the capture rates,frame rates if this is going to be a tool
to use in fencing to teach and analyse where you are going wrong.go for it
but if you just want to use every now and again i would save your money and stick with a go-pro or dvr cam that can shoot 60-120 fps

Yes it is probably very similar to what you setup for your father for his golf swings except my total recording time would be more like 5 minutes. And yes I do want to set this up to use for every practice. I actually want to be able to go watch the video right away too but that seems more a function of the computer/software that is recording than the camera itself.

When you say the tracking is gimicky what do you mean? I think that we are not moving too fast for the camera itself. Assuming 3m/s movement on the 14m strip and if it is 105 degrees wide it would only need about 25 degreees/second of panning speed. Are you saying we are moving too fast for the auto-tracking to follow it? Could the camera zoom less and still follow the action? Or perhaps could I put the camera farther away than 6 meters and still get it to track the action? Any chance you could post a youtube link of the auto-tracking?

 

[bguy]

I think you need something made for sports, not a security camera. A fast shutter speed like 1/1000 will get capture fast movements. How about this:
SOLOSHOT® Robot Cameraman‎

 

[marku2]

Yes it is probably very similar to what you setup for your father for his golf swings except my total recording time would be more like 5 minutes. And yes I do want to set this up to use for every practice. I actually want to be able to go watch the video right away too but that seems more a function of the computer/software that is recording than the camera itself.

When you say the tracking is gimicky what do you mean? I think that we are not moving too fast for the camera itself. Assuming 3m/s movement on the 14m strip and if it is 105 degrees wide it would only need about 25 degreees/second of panning speed. Are you saying we are moving too fast for the auto-tracking to follow it? Could the camera zoom less and still follow the action? Or perhaps could I put the camera farther away than 6 meters and still get it to track the action? Any chance you could post a youtube link of the auto-tracking?

What I could do this Saturday is open up auto tracking on that ptz set the shot up and move about at 3m/second I’m in Australia so I’m stuck with 50 FPS but will tweak the frame rate and bit rate and shutter speed and see what happens then you can see if that would work then I will pull the recording onto desk top and see the slow motion edit quickly.
it will be a fun little exercise

 

[towster]

The more I think about it the more interested in seeing if I can get PTZ to do what I want.
So I found this link talking about camera resolutions.. Scroll down to #3..
HD security camera - 1MP 1.3MP 2MP 3MP 5MP 4K UHD resolution

Let say I have the stationary camera and I digitally zoom into 2meters of the 14 meter strip. This would mean I would only see 1/7th of the horizontal resolution of the camera. So based on that here is a list of the original horizontal resolution and the resultant cropped resolution..

1280 -- 182
1920 -- 274
2048 -- 292
2592 -- 370
2560 -- 365
3072 -- 438
3840 -- 548
7680 -- 1097

So basically if I have an 8mp fixed camera the resultant image will be smaller than 1mp. The highest frame rate I can find for 8mp is 30fps. If I can get a PTZ to keep the subjects in frame it would allow me to potentially record at a higher resolution and frame rate.

 

[towster]

What I could do this Saturday is open up auto tracking on that ptz set the shot up and move about at 3m/second I’m in Australia so I’m stuck with 50 FPS but will tweak the frame rate and bit rate and shutter speed and see what happens then you can see if that would work then I will pull the recording onto desk top and see the slow motion edit quickly.
it will be a fun little exercise

If you got a chance to put up a video let me know..
thx

 

[marku2]

If you got a chance to put up a video let me know..
thx

Had it all planned but the national broad band network has taken out the internet in town while they connect the fiber optic at the exchange
will plan it again this week end we have been out since Friday
I’m just hotspoting my phone to the iPad atm

 

[Kawboy12R]

The whole town is without wifi? Just think of all the psychological damage to the children!