New build for 4K cameras. i9-9900K?

Discussion in 'Blue Iris' started by Jan Werbinski, May 15, 2019.

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  1. Jan Werbinski

    Jan Werbinski n3wb

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    I'm thinking about new build PC for BI and some light office work but maybe later it'll be dedicated for BI only. Currently I use only few cameras and testing with QVR Pro on Qnap. But I don't like this software.

    Planning 8-12 4Mpx and 4K cameras with total 40-80Mpx and 15fps rate is 600-1200MP/s. I expect some time after I play with this setup I'll set fps for most of cameras much lower and save a lot of bandwidth. All cameras I have already are H.265+ capable and I plan to buy only H.265+.

    CPU
    i9-9900 is fastest CPU with reasonable price and quite futureproof. Best whole PC price to passmark ratio if I want fast machine. Im not sure is it wise to go with top CPU but cost of buying lower CPU and losing money in resale then buying better CPU seems to me as waste of time and not saving any significant money. In the past I never upgraded CPU in my PC's.

    RAM
    2x8GB DDR4-2666 should be enough. Motherboard will have 4 slots just in case.

    System disc
    SSD 500GB Samsung 860 Evo which I already have or 500GB Samsung 870 NVMe for a little more price. Should I use NVMe? Any visible increase of speed during playing recordings? What about size? 500GB too much or OK?

    Storage discs
    3-5 3TB HGST enterprise HDDs in RAID5. It's cheapest price for TB. Not sure how many disc to add at the begining and is it possible to add another disc to RAID5 in Windows 10? I have disc already.

    Motherboard
    I don't know what to choose? Maybe MSI MAG Z390 for about 150euro or something more expensive like ASUS Aorus? But these are probably gaming motherboards and no need for all the fancy features. Motherboard must be RAID5 capable and have gigabit LAN and Z390 chipset.

    What do you think?

    PS I have i5-4570 HP Elitedesk which I can use for BI for a while if it's possible to just move BI and recordings from one computer to the other saving hassle with configuration and without losing data. It would be wise to use it as long as possible.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
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  2. bp2008

    bp2008 Staff Member

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    The main reason to buy Intel is to use Quick Sync for hardware acceleration to make the system run on less power. You can only use Quick Sync for H.264 video at this time. Not for H.265. It was supposed to be working for H.265 for a year or two now, but it simply doesn't. Also, codec extensions like "smart codec", "SVC", "H.264+", "H.265+" may have compatibility issues with Blue Iris and cause video corruption or outright streaming failure.

    Although I have absolutely no data from Blue Iris to back this up, I'd suggest DDR4-3000 or -3200 as a better price/performance balance. Blue Iris does do a lot of memory access while decoding, encoding, and rendering such huge amounts of video.

    i9-9900(K) is a good choice for a 1200+ MP/s load. If you limit yourself to 1000 MP/s or less, then i7-9700(K) or i7-6700(K) should be fine. (K editions not strictly necessary, but they DO offer better performance)

    NVMe is faster than SATA, no doubt there, but the real-world effect is not even close to what you see in benchmarks, and there'd likely be no measurable effect on BI performance. Plenty of BI systems run well without an SSD at all. It is kind of like having a car that can drive 125 Kph (HDD), or a car that can drive 500 Kph (SSD) or a car that can drive 2500 Kph (NVMe SSD). There's more speed, but no place to use it!

    Consider not using RAID 5. Some raid controllers may dump the entire array when they encounter the first bad sector on any of the disks while you are recovering from a disk failure. RAID 6 is better for reliability with modern multi-terabyte disks. Many of us do not use RAID at all, and either span the disks with software or just configure BI to record specific cameras to specific disks so that in the event of a drive failure you only lose a few of the cameras' recordings and keep all the others.

    There's no reason to buy a Z390 motherboard for Blue Iris. All motherboards have gigabit LAN these days so I suggest saving a little cash and getting a B365 or something since that should meet all your requirements.

    You can move BI and the recordings from one computer to the other. Export the registry settings from within BI Options, install BI fresh on the new machine, and and import the registry settings after reproducing the disk layout that you had on the old machine. You can then rebuild the clip database, or transfer over the database from the old system while BI is not running on either machine. You will need to activate BI on the new machine and if you've done this more than once with your current serial number then you will probably have to contact BI support to get the serial number reset.
     
  3. SouthernYankee

    SouthernYankee IPCT Contributor

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    Interesting system.

    I do not use raid. I use clone cameras to write to an external network storage. Clone cameras do not use any additional processing at the camera, the data from the camera is collect only once and BI writes it multiple time as required. Clone network storage is added insurance from a major system failure or system theft.

    If there are multiple drives in BI assign different cameras to each drive. So if a drive fails you only loose some cameras in the primary system. In my experience a raid 5 recovery is a PIA.
     
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  4. bp2008

    bp2008 Staff Member

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    My dad lost his office backup server RAID 5 array once, when a disk failure went unnoticed for a while, then a second disk dismounted itself for unknown reasons (the disk was fine after reboot, but the raid controller decided it was too late and it was NOT going to recover). Unfortunately, the secretary had been working straight off of the network drive and didn't have local copies of her work. Fortunately, I had backups of the "backups" and was able to get them running again.
     
  5. Jan Werbinski

    Jan Werbinski n3wb

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    Until BI will add support for H.265 I can use H.265+ in cameras and direct to disc write. But I suppose this comes with a cost of not using full features of moves detection in BI? I hope version 5 will have support. Now I use QVR Pro on my QNAP and it supports H.265+. File sizes are really small.

    I plan to use RAID5 for availability, not for backup. So no problem with URE. I think RAID5 is in this case better than single discs because gives me chance to switch disc and expand size of storage. I have a few brand new HGST 3TB enterprise class discs which I bought for about 37EUR. I use RAID4 and RAID5 on my NASes and so far so good.
    Losing of data because no one did notice first disc failure in RAID5 is argument against single discs, not against RAID5. RAID5 gives time to do additional backup in case of disc failure and after this backup it is possible to safely replace discs. If URE occurs then restore from backup.
    RAID is not a backup!

    Exporting and importing registry? Can I select just a part of registry and import it? Will I keep all my database, history, clips etc?
    If so that is great news! I can use my cheap HP EliteDesk (which I just bought for 130EUR) and get experience with BI and have precise evaluation of my future needs.
     
  6. bp2008

    bp2008 Staff Member

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    You could try. As I said, there may be compatibility problems with H.265+ such as corrupt video, dropped frames, or worse. Or it might work. You can certainly try! Normal H.265 should work, you just won't get to use Quick Sync for hardware acceleration so it will be more CPU-intensive. H.264 is still a good option. It does not offer as good of a compression ratio but it is less energy-intensive to decode which makes it a better choice for most BI users.

    Direct to disc does not hurt BI's motion detection.

    You can export and import manually with regedit. You can also use the export and import functionality which is built directly in to Blue Iris. It is basically the same thing either way.

    The database and clips are not kept in the registry and not not exported when doing a settings export. These are just files and you can simply copy to a new system if needed.
     
  7. mech

    mech n3wb

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    I recently built a computer for BI and had some of the same decisions to make. Before BI, I had klunky Grandstream software recording nine cams (mostly 3MP each), and had ten others (Bosch) recording to iSCSI on low-end Synology NASes, including some 5MP and one 12MP cam. Total is about 1200MP/second, recording continuously at frame rates of mostly 15FPS. I do a lot of viewing, so I knew I would have the console open and shift among different groups of cameras.

    At first, I planned to pick up a used Dell Precision dual-Xeon with 8-core or 10-core CPUs for 32 or 40 threads. Then I did some reading here, and realized dual-socket Xeons would lack QuickSync, which is a game-changer, so I decided to go with the i9-9900k, 32GB of DDR-3200 RAM, and a inexpensive Gigabyte Z390 board (Gaming X). For storage, I used some of my HGST drives from my Synology NASes, plus a new NVME SSD for the system drive because I wanted more space for archives of still photos. I added an old nVidia 760GTX to run three 1920 x 1200 monitors, and experimented with nVidia acceleration on the higher-resolution cameras.

    At the moment, I am using 14GB of RAM and about 50% CPU with the console open (using "Fast" display scaling), Microsoft IIS running a FTP server for the cameras to save still photos independently, and DropBox. So I'm not using 32GB of RAM, but I'm getting up near 16GB.

    If you are happy with your SATA SSD then keep it for your system drive, unless you need more capacity. I was hoping NVME would result in a radical change in how fast the system can load thumbnails of thousands of photos in a folder, but it is not a radical change compared to my SATA Samsung 860 EVO. Bitlocker also slowed it down. My new 970 Evo Plus doesn't have native encryption, unlike a 970 Pro.


    For mass storage, I agree with the others: have each drive run independently.

    With direct-to-disk encoding (all h264 cams here), QuickSync acceleration, and using the "fast" scaling instead of bilinear or bicubic for the console, I can view all the cameras at once in the console at about 50% CPU load and about 30% GPU load on the GTX760. But that is just viewing, not playback. If I hear something suspicious, and I want to review what just happened, I'd like playback to work smoothly. The i9 actually cannot keep up if I want to play back all the cameras, since it's also still tasked with recording them in real time. CPU usage hits 100%, even with Fast display scaling.

    For a test, I tried playing back the 12MP camera, which runs quite a high bitrate to get good detail in a long-range situation. Using Intel acceleration, 1x playback is feasible. 2x playback starts to get notchy. 4x playback is too much... I see the BI time readout progressing at 4x actual speed, but the video window just occasionally shows a random frame. Then I switched that camera from Intel to nVidia acceleration and tried the same thing with the 760GTX. On the nVidia card, 4x playback will take the 760GTX up near 90% utilization, but the video is keeping up.

    Since I'm going to have a card in there for multi-monitor anyway, I took a gamble and ordered a GTX1650 with 6GB of memory, also gaining a h265 encoding option in the bargain. I'll try to find a balance of Intel and nVidia acceleration that gets me smoother playback when it counts. If it's still too much, it may be time to sacrifice framerates on cameras where 5FPS technically could get the job done.
     
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  8. Jan Werbinski

    Jan Werbinski n3wb

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    Interesting to see i9-9900K isn't future proof after all. Comparing with cheaper options there seems to be constant price in CPU power per passmark - twice passmark power = twice price of the system.
     
  9. mech

    mech n3wb

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    I read the feature list for BI version 5 (PDF: https://blueirissoftware.com/BlueIris5.pdf ) and the ability to access other BI installations will present an interesting parallel-processing option: several inexpensive used Dell or HP i7 systems with 64-bit Win10, each with its own BI license, would be an alternative to a single system, at least if you can go down to h264 to take advantage of QuickSync acceleration. If I understand the notes correctly, you will only be able to view one BI system at a time in the interface, so that would be the trade-off versus a single do-it-all system. It's an idea, anyway.

    I might try that if I'm not satisfied with the outcome after my nVidia card gets here (and BI v5 releases), since my old i7 is still operational.
     
  10. bp2008

    bp2008 Staff Member

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    Based on a test I did a day or two ago, yes, it is one BI system at a time. I also noticed:

    * The remote system must be running as a service.
    * When you connect to a remote BI service via this feature, it automatically closes and disables the local console on the remote system for as long as you remain connected. I guess BI can only allow one console per service because there would be too many problems synchronizing the configuration if more than one console was open.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
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  11. Jan Werbinski

    Jan Werbinski n3wb

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    I get looking like new Dell OptiPlex 3060 with i3-8100 for about 220EUR with 8GB RAM and M.2 SSD. Prepared clean Windows 10 install for BI 5. I think it'll be good for some time during I'll wait for bigger CPU prices to go down. I hope it's enough for recording 400-500 Mp/s.
     
  12. mrc545

    mrc545 n3wb

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    You will be fine (barely) with that setup. I just built a dedicated IP camera setup with similar specs:

    Intel 9900k
    32GB (4x8GB) DDR4 2666mhz
    Gigabyte z390m gaming motherboard
    GTX 1060 3GB
    Intel 660p 1TB m.2 SSD (for new clips/quick access)
    3x4TB WD purple in RAID 5 (stored)

    I am pulling about 1200 MP/s (mix of 4k and 1080p cams), and with all the optimizations in place, I'm at about 70% CPU usage.

    A few caveats:

    1) SSD's have a finite r/w lifespan, but I accepted the risk/deficiency with using one for recently recorded/active clips, as I need quick access. The 660p has a 5 year warranty, and won't hesitate to use it.

    2) The 9900k runs HOT. If you aren't using liquid cooling, at the minimum, you should get a top tier air cooler. I have a Noctua NHD15 and it can barely keep up when doing burn in tests. Air pressure is about neutral, and I put a 3000 max rpm Noctua Industrial fan in the back that will kick in hard when it heats up. Temps get around 80c at 100% load, but under the 70% constant load that BI is putting on it, temps are in the mid to upper 60's. Acceptable enough.

    3) Be wary of enabling multicore enhancement on your MB. I played around with it for a few hours, and with MCE enabled, doing burn in tests, temps would get into the upper 90's, and vCore would go up to 1.42+. Not good for longevity. That extra 300 mHz per core isn't worth the added wear and tear.
     
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  13. mech

    mech n3wb

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    I also have a Gigabyte motherboard and dived into the settings and set the fans to run at full speed, which helped temperatures significantly under heavy load. You're right, it is a job for a decent cooler and case airflow.
     
  14. aaronwt

    aaronwt Getting the hang of it

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    I've been using a 1TB Samsung EVO with BI for around five years now. I've had between twelve and fifteen cameras in use during that time. With most 1500P. I've only had around 100TB of data read and around 100TB of data written during that time. And the drive still has 80% of it's life left.

    That is not much data at all. A couple of my other PCs go through reading and writing more data than that each year. Since I use them for UHD BD rips. So I'm reading and writing multiple 50GB to 100GB files between SSDs and NVMe drives regularly.

    My newer BI machine saves the video from my fifteen cameras to a 250GB NVMe drive first, then the content overflows to the 1TB SSD. And then that overflows to a 500GB SSD, and then that overflows to a 2TB platter drive before getting deleted.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
  15. Jan Werbinski

    Jan Werbinski n3wb

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    Why not record on HDD and use SSD only for system and database? Is there any difference in user experience?
    HDDs suppose to be perfect for streaming and continuos write/read. SSD have no advantage for streaming.
     
  16. vcwannabe

    vcwannabe n3wb

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    i9-9900k runs insanely hot and you need a good board with good VRMs to be able to push it hard round the clock. I am an Asus fan but because of how they did their 4 phase, I went with the gigabyte aorus ultra and the cooler is NH-D15. If you go water, get at least a 360mm radiator.
     
  17. Skispcs

    Skispcs Young grasshopper

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    IMHO I would not use RAID5. RAID5 is great for READING but sucks at WRITING and for storing video, you will be doing a LOT of writing. Even with a Super Powered RAID card, writing 600-1200MP/s to a RAID5 is going to hurt.
    That is assuming you are using a dedicated Tier 1 RAID card, if you are trying to do this with software RAID.....
     
  18. mrc545

    mrc545 n3wb

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    My RAID 5 array (Stored) benchmarks at around 150MB/s seq read, whereas the m.2 SSD that I use for new clips benchmarks around 1700 MB/s seq read. The primary m.2 that has the OS and BI DB is doing 3500 MB/s read. Blazing fast. It may not help, but it sure doesn't hurt. I was planning a new build anyway and wanted to leverage some new tech. I guess if you wanted to get into the weeds you could compare seek time, but again, I don't think there would be that much of a difference.

    I have initial clips (900 GB out of 1TB) going to the SSD, then being pushed to the RAID 5 array when it fills up. When it pushes them out, I see the RAID 5 array writing at less than 40 MB/s. This is with a 1400 MP/s setup. It benchmarks at 265 MB/s write. Plenty of overhead to spare.

    Back to the i9900k setup. I added another 4k cam (around 1400 MP/s total with all cameras), and switched up my video card to an RTX 2060. It definitely helped out. 60% cpu usage now on the i9900k On the RTX I'm seeing 35% CUDA/70% video decode/3.5GB of GPU memory usage. This BI setup is a hungry beast. Kind of crazy when top of the line tech can barely keep up.

    One more thing to note- I had to remove the Noctua NH-D15 cooler to support clearances with the new video card (backplate was pushing against it). Replaced it with the smaller U12S, but added 2 of the 3000 rpm Noctua fans for push/pull on the cooler. At the lower 60% load (down from 70%), temps are in the low 60's. Still recommend the NH-D15 if your setup can accommodate it.
     
  19. bp2008

    bp2008 Staff Member

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    @mrc545 Your CPU load seems pretty high in both reports.

    This strikes me as too high. My i7-8700K (6 cores) only runs at 20% with a 1000 MP/s load (BI in service mode with console closed) and this is without any Nvidia hardware acceleration, and several cameras not even fully tuned for CPU efficiency (not all of them use direct to disk and hardware acceleration!). When I open the GUI full-screened on a 4K monitor (fed by Nvidia card) CPU usage only goes up to 45%.

    By all rights your i9-9900K should have been processing only about 20% more video than my CPU, and the 33% increase in core count should more than make up for it.

    While that is an improvement, it is still far from what I would expect to see. Why aren't you using Intel decoding on all the cams anyway? Nvidia's decoding is horribly inefficient in terms of energy used.

    One thought, maybe Windows is underclocking your CPU for some reason and playing with the Power Options would reveal the true load. My 8th gen CPU for example regularly bounces between 4.3 and 4.4 GHz but maybe yours is running far below that.
     
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  20. mech

    mech n3wb

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    It's also worth verifying your 9900K's GPU is in fact enabled. In Task Manager, are you seeing both your RTX and your Intel UHD GPUs, like the attached screenshot? If not, dive into your UEFI menus and set your integrated GPU to Enabled. My Gigabyte was on AUTO which resulted in my Intel GPU being disabled, preventing any benefit from QuickSync.

    The screenshot shows a 9900K plus a GTX1660 with about 1100MP/sec, all direct to disc, console open at 1920 x 1200, displaying all the cameras and running motion detection on just a couple of them. I circled the jump in CPU usage when switching from Fast to Bicubic for the display scaling. If you need to optimize something, making sure it's set for Fast display scaling in Settings > Other is a good one.
     

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